flouride

[seaker]

If fluoride is used in animal poisons and has a toxic effect when ingested, why is it used in tap water and antidepressants?

[iNow]

For the benefits it brings, probably.

 

 

[seaker]

What are the benefits when ingested? I know of none that are conclusive. Simply medical slander if u ask me. But there is proof of the substance being toxic to animals. In small doses to humans it simply leads to lethargy, lack of energy, and, ironically, when ingested, studies have shown it can cause tooth and bone decay.

[John Cuthber]

Why do people breathe oxygen, I have heard that it's toxic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

 

And the same is true of lots of other things, iron, selenium copper cobalt and zinc for example.

[seaker]

That is completely irrelevant to my topic.

[iNow]

Not really. Even water is toxic in certain doses. The idea is that we must always weight costs against benefits, and we have deemed the benefits to outweigh the costs with fluoride.

[seaker]

But water is essential to our survival. We literally can not live without is. Fluoride is unnecessary, taking this fact into account, the costs do outweigh the benefits, because as I mentioned earlier, there are no definitive study's to prove there even are any benefits WHEN INGESTED. Your dentist does not instruct you to drink your mouthwash or eat your toothpaste, so what is the purpose of fluoride in tap water?

[CaptainPanic]

But water is essential to our survival. We literally can not live without is. Fluoride is unnecessary, taking this fact into account, the costs do outweigh the benefits, because as I mentioned earlier, there are no definitive study's to prove there even are any benefits WHEN INGESTED. Your dentist does not instruct you to drink your mouthwash or eat your toothpaste, so what is the purpose of fluoride in tap water?

The dose is what really matters.

 

Toxicity is a combination of the substance and the dose. All substances are dangerous and toxic if the dose is high enough.

[seaker]

That does not answer my question.

[iNow]

What's your question, then? You seem to be missing the point we're conveying that the toxicity you cite is really a non-issue given the low dose.

[seaker]

Bleach is toxic but I'm sure can be ingested in extremely small doses as to harm us in an almost unnoticeable way, but why in the world would we put poison in our bodies!? Regardless of dosage. No one has yet to answer my question, WHY? WHY IS THERE FLUORIDE IN OUR TAP WATER? WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS WHEN INGESTED IN "SMALL DOSES?"

[stopandthink]

If fluoride is used in animal poisons and has a toxic effect when ingested, why is it used in tap water and antidepressants?

 

So we can die with a full set of teeth?

[seaker]

So we can die with a full set of teeth?

that's funny you would say that. Yes, dentists have been all for brushing your teeth with toothpaste containing fluoride, but there is a warning label that clearly states ingestion is harmful. Studies have actually shown that places with the most fluoride in the drinking water from tap actually have highest tooth decay rates.

 

It's called dental fluorosis. The only cause is too much fluoride. There are literally no benefits to ingestion, so the argument that the dosage is small enough for the benefits to outweigh the risks is a load of crap the government had been shoving down your throat. Go ahead, do the research. Something vile is going on here. Why would our own government put poison in our tap water??

[Dekan]

If fluoride is used in animal poisons and has a toxic effect when ingested, why is it used in tap water and antidepressants?

 

The politicians put it in the water - because they found out that fluoride weakens the human brain. Specifically, the fluoride damages a part of your brain called the "hippocampus", which controls your personality.

 

Once the hippocampus has been got at by the fluoride, your personality becomes more docile. More likely to obey orders. Vote for anyone. Do as you're told.

 

As is well known, this was discovered by a big German chemical company in the 1930's. Which explains a lot.

 

You don't think governments are keen to fluoridate water because of concern for your dental health, do you?

[seaker]

The politicians put it in the water - because they found out that fluoride weakens the human brain. Specifically, the fluoride damages a part of your brain called the "hippocampus", which controls your personality.

 

Once the hippocampus has been got at by the fluoride, your personality becomes more docile. More likely to obey orders. Vote for anyone. Do as you're told.

 

As is well known, this was discovered by a big German chemical company in the 1930's. Which explains a lot.

 

You don't think governments are keen to fluoridate water because of concern for your dental health, do you?

So its like they are trying to subdue us, without us really even knowing. Put this chemical that effects our brain in our drinking water, and we do the damage to ourselves. Brilliant. I think it has been working. People are really ignorant to these things, and are easily manipulated and fooled..scarry to really think about.

[Phi for All]

No one has yet to answer my question, WHY? WHY IS THERE FLUORIDE IN OUR TAP WATER? WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS WHEN INGESTED IN "SMALL DOSES?"

In Denver, one of our main water sources, the South Platte River, has naturally occurring fluoride. It usually falls right in line with accepted amounts, but we sometimes supplement with a little more, and sometimes have to remove a bit. This is NATURALLY OCCURRING, so I know you'll be pleased that nature agrees with the practice, at least near the Rockies.

 

Dental health affects the rest of the body too. Preventing cavities at the cost of an average of $1 per person per year (for those of you who don't have rivers like the South Platte) is considered to be extremely helpful in keeping overall healthcare costs lower. This should be enough of an answer to your question.

 

And just in case you're still unclear about dosage levels, the same solubility that allows fluoride to enter streams and water systems naturally also means it doesn't build up in your system. So just like many things that are basically poisons, like alcohol and the other substances mentioned earlier, low doses aren't going to affect you adversely in the long run, and in this case may make you healthier.

 

The politicians put it in the water - because they found out that fluoride weakens the human brain. Specifically, the fluoride damages a part of your brain called the "hippocampus", which controls your personality.

 

Once the hippocampus has been got at by the fluoride, your personality becomes more docile. More likely to obey orders. Vote for anyone. Do as you're told.

 

As is well known, this was discovered by a big German chemical company in the 1930's. Which explains a lot.

 

You don't think governments are keen to fluoridate water because of concern for your dental health, do you?

What a bunch of crap. Show me some studies that show communities that don't fluoridate their water are less docile (more aggressive?) or have other personality disorders manifested by the community as a whole.

[iNow]

I think Dekan was using his sarcasm font and people didn't see it.

EDIT: Crap. Actually, think it was Phi who had that font and I didn't see it. Oh, why is this so hard!!!

Edited November 7, 2012 by iNow

[seaker]

What a bunch of crap. Show me some studies that show communities that don't fluoridate their water are less docile (more aggressive?) or have other personality disorders manifested by the community as a whole.

 

I do not think personality disorders would manifest from lack of fluoride ingestion, although you are right there are no studies to prove this. communities without fluoridation would be unaffected. I do not see how any personality disorders manifest from either ingesting or not ingesting fluoride. Being more docile is not a personality disorder.

 

But the studies by dentists that have been done conclude that ingesting fluoride is not beneficial. At all. Period. End of story. Do the research. There are no studies that say places with fluoridated water leads to better dental health, but on the contrary, there are studies that show the average dental health of the population has no ling at all with flouridated drinking water. So maybe there are no conclusive studies that it affects the brain, but it does not improve dental health when ingested. A toothpaste bottle will tell you to brush with a pea sized amount of toothpaste and not to swallow. If the toothpaste is ingested you should "contact a poison control center" their words exactly. So why do we drink it in our water? I do not understand. Actually, as I mentioned earlier, dental fluorosis is a condition of significant tooth decay which is ONLY caused by ingestion of fluoride. So why would the government, with all their smarts and knowhow ( supposedly ) be allowing us, even encouraging us to drink fluoride?

 

And phi, that was a silly think to say about that lake, just because a substance can collect naturally in a water source, does not mean it is beneficiall, or even ok to ingest. We don't go around drinking salt water do we? Even though it collects naturally over 75% of the planet.

Edited November 7, 2012 by seaker

[Phi for All]

I do not think personality disorders would manifest from lack of fluoride ingestion, although you are right there are no studies to prove this. communities without fluoridation would be unaffected. I do not see how any personality disorders manifest from either ingesting or not ingesting fluoride. Being more docile is not a personality disorder.

Wouldn't you see plenty of difference between townships that compete with each other in high school sports if what you say is true about fluoridation? Wouldn't it be really bloody evident that one town's kids were much more docile? And how exactly does it benefit the government to pay to have docility that's not really measurable?

 

But the studies by dentists that have been done conclude that ingesting fluoride is not beneficial. At all. Period. End of story. Do the research.

OK. Here's an unreserved endorsement for fluoridation from the American Dental Association, which comprises over 157,000 practicing members, and concludes that fluoridation is safe, well-monitored and THE BEST THING EVER DONE to prevent dental caries. Here's a good article that shows how good dental health can affect overall health as well.

 

Btw, beware of saying "end of story". In science, you learn why theory is better than proof.

 

And phi, that was a silly think to say about that lake, just because a substance can collect naturally in a water source, does not mean it is beneficiall, or even ok to ingest. We don't go around drinking salt water do we? Even though it collects naturally over 75% of the planet.

Well, every post you've made so far seems to carry the same note, that science and modern chemistry are evil and unnatural, while organic farming and natural water without fluoride are better for the whole world. I get it, the whole "natural" movement is very persuasive in its conservatism, but it's not very rooted in reality and seems to want to drag us backwards into the past when things are remembered to be much better. I understand why people fear progress, but the fact is, humans are part of nature, so everything we do is natural too. It's the way we choose to affect nature that defines us. We can be top-shelf predators with the most cooperative and communicative set of tool-using, opposable thumb wielding, high-intelligence brains on the planet and ALSO kill our prey more humanely than any other predator.

 

And we can choose to adopt practices that benefit everyone effectively, even if the result also gives us a whiter smile.

[seaker]

You think you are so smart. Hilarious. This is not a website to share ideas. It just so assholes like you can knock then down.

[Phi for All]

You think you are so smart. Hilarious. This is not a website to share ideas. It just so assholes like you can knock then down.

This is a science discussion forum. It's just so assholes like me can share accepted, meaningful, scientifically supported ideas and have them analyzed by other assholes who are interested in reality.

[elementcollector1]

You think you are so smart. Hilarious. This is not a website to share ideas. It just so assholes like you can knock then down.

 

This is a website focused on science. Science is not dedicated to proving itself, that's pseudoscience. You have failed to provide adequate data for your theories, and without said data, we can only come to the conclusion that your theories are false.

 

EDIT: Darn you Phi, you beat me to it!

Edited November 8, 2012 by elementcollector1

[hypervalent_iodine]

You think you are so smart. Hilarious. This is not a website to share ideas. It just so assholes like you can knock then down.

 

!

Moderator Note

Seaker, posts like this are simply unacceptable. If you wish to discuss things, you should do so without dragging personal insults into things to try and make your point.

 

Secondly, this is (as others have said) a predominantly science discussion forum. If you want to discuss things here, you will be expected to support your assertions with evidence. The onus is 100% on you. If you can't do this, you'll find your time here to be very short lived.

 

Please do not respond to this mod note within this thread. If you take issue with it, feel free to use the report post function (yellow triangle on the bottom of this post) or by PM'ing staff.

[Phi for All]

Darn you Phi, you beat me to it!

You said it better than I did. But I'm still a better asshole.

[seaker]

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/08/12/fluoride-and-the-brain-no-margin-of-safety.aspx?e_cid=20110812_DNL_art_1

 

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

 

http://rense.com/general93/fluo.htm

 

http://m.naturalnews.com/news/030952_CDC_fluoride.html

 

http://www.fluoridealert.org/issues/dental-products/toothpastes/