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It wasn’t a yes or no question EVEN IF we go with the simplistic biology-for-beginners definition based on chromosomes, there’s the underlying question, noted a few posts back by The Vat, of the more complicated genetics - that there are genetic differences between these nominal categories of men and women, and differences between cis- and transgender people. Studies have shown this*. But that doesn’t come up because of the refusal to engage in any actual science discussion and instead relying on “as far as I’m concerned” and “this doesn’t match the reality that I observe” which sidesteps the science. * for example, see https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

Well that all makes sense, but then why are you participating in this thread? Clearly the fate of the biosphere is not critically dependent on inclusion rules in sports. It feels like you want to have the discussion but want to dismiss the issues. This thread is located in Biology, so I took it to be about the physiology of trangender folks and how that interacts with their engaging in sports. I was not weighing its importance relative to the issues of human survival and sustainable society. I was just curious about people who have made choices of self-identification that are quite different from mine. (mine can be accessed via Eric Idle's The Penis Song)

I think that your predictions by cherry picked simple extrapolations are, intentionally or not, grossly simplistic for the real world. "It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future", but I am certain that something very different will actually happen. To @zapatos, you remind an Evangelical preacher. To me, you remind a communist propagandist. Just substitute "classless society" for "human technological advancement" and you get a "hyperhyperdrive" to universal happiness.

The permutations are endless... if one looks. Only at sufficient distance and resolution is a rainbow composed of seven visible and distinct colours.

Yes, a frame independent value can be measured in a frame. Such a value is 'real'.

If you ignore the 1-2%, chromosome-defined sex works, but that's not representative of reality in the actual phenotypes that are out there. Shall we just arbitrarily ignore the 1-2% and say they don't count because they twist too many knickers? Let's be honest. The more I think about this and understand paths of evolution, the less tenable binary states become. Hundreds of pregnant male seahorses were released this week to boost their numbers. I don't think nature gives a monkey's. The states that proliferate genetically in any given environment are the ones that hang around. There is clearly room in the human genome for these types of variations in human expression. Why must gender expression be irrevocably fixed to chromosomes, when, clearly, there is all manner of variations in nature? Are humans exempt from the forces that create these variations?

I get what you are saying, and it is a general issue in public health that folks tend to think in extremes (e.g. deaths) but forget about health burden, loss of quality of life, and associated cost and drain on the health care system. After all managing a a disease for decades is often more expensive than just dropping dead.

We’ve been over this. Did you not understand my response, did you forget, or is there some third option?

Yeah, I am trying to bring SF.com back up to some sort of reasonable standard but it's difficult to do alone.

I wasn’t sure what you were pointing towards. It’s why I asked for clarification. All I did was give a definition. If anyone made you look like a bigot, it’s you, with what you wrote. Well, “targeted above any other” isn’t what I claimed; that’s your strawman. I claimed they were targeted for who they are. Brown and black people have been targeted for the color of their skin. Jews have been targeted because they are Jews. This issue isn’t that trans people are targeted more, it’s that they are targeted at all. It’s not like there is some (non-zero) acceptable level of such behavior, IMO. It’s hard to imagine that one could participate in this discussion and need such a citation. https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022 “In 2021, the Human Rights Campaign tracked a record number of violent fatal incidents against transgender and gender non-conforming people — with 50 fatalities tracked.” One can’t answer them without having defined the categories. And a definition that covers most but not all people does us no good, because the discussion is about the people that fall into the grey area.

Of course there is a distinction between object and subject, albeit a conceptual one. The question is if this conceptual distinction is also an ontological one. Many mystical traditions, and interesting enough, modern science, do not think there is a complete distinction between the two. That sounds more like a temporal loss of personal identity. That can happen just spontaneously, but can also be triggered by severe stress, or by meditation. I never heard of a connection with IQ. But I know of an German author, Michael Schmidt-Salomon, with a similar experience: it was triggered by an intense period of thinking about the free will problem, which he was writing an article about. A game where the endpoint is death should be played differently than a game you can start over and over again. I take it seriously, but I think you are wrong. Why would otherwise mystical traditions strive for insight in the grounds of personal existence? Think about the concept of Śūnyatā in Buddhist philosophy. Realising Nirwana, according to Buddhism, leads to equanimity, calmness of the mind. No idea what you mean here.

IT companies own the artificial intelligence they have created. If someone asks Google's or Bing search engine or artificial intelligence "how to hide a body" or "where to find zoophilia?," a trail is left in the IT infrastructure that can be used against the person seeking for such kind of information.. Undoubtedly, administrators of public search engines are alerted when someone searches for such keywords..

Phoenix, your paint has arrived.

I know what woke means and you know exactly what I was pointing to wards but as usual just like many other posters on this thread you skirt around, ignore the point i allude to and throw it back at me to make me look like some bigot, or ignoramus. No one is arguing this, the argument is about how we should consolidate sex and gender when they are conflicting. And how we can accommodate this in society, in a fair and inclusive manner. Yes it is, I'm happy to respect their choice of identity, but why should i accept something that is non factual? If I want to identify as a dog then i would hope people would respect this and identify me as such. This doesn't change the fact that I'm a human not a dog. citation please. Show me some factual evidence that trans people are targeted above any other. People are beaten and killed al over the world for all sorts of reasons. Maybe in the US trans murder is rife? What are you talking about?? I was pointing out that some problems are far more pressing than others and if aren't dealt with sooner rather than later there won't be anyone around to complain anyhow. I'm talking about focus and appropriately actioning by priority. This doesn't mean other issue should be ignored it just means some are greater than others and more of a threat to the planet and society in general. No one is talking about exclusion in the way you are referring. As you well know!!! Yet another example of missing the point and twisting to make those who disagree with you look bad! Some very sly and devious posting going on now. Nope I'm saying that person has a mental health issue and they should be treated and cared for accordingly. That was my whole point. You have totally missed it. If I believe I was born in the wrong body and I want to be my authentic self then we all agree that we should respect my identity choice. But should this automatically qualify me for the rights of my identity choice if those rights affect other's? It's double standards and inconsistent. If I'm a man who believes and identifies as a woman I'm free to enter any women's category If I'm a man who believes and identifies as a child I'm not free to enter any child's category In fact I'll take it one step further and say that most psychological experts would regard my choice of identity as a child to be a mental health issue. I have a condition called body dysmorphia where I see myself differently than others and what I actually am. Many people suffer from this and similar. These conditions are regarded as mental health issues. Is anyone going to answer my questions? I'm constantly being preached to insinuating I'm ignorant and a bigot. I've asked to be educated using facts and definitions.

Then why have categories? Then why do males who feel they have been born in the wrong body want so desperately to become women? It's hypocritical and inconsistent. There is no such thing as binary sex just a spectrum Some people born male want to become female I oppose making sporting events unfair and boring Yet there is lots of media exposure & fuss on transgender rights, but we are to dismiss the rights of those affected by this. Typical. Funny how all of a sudden when suits a person's opinion, beliefs and feelings matter in science? Yet if I claimed that aliens are real, and that I was born a human but really I should have been an alien. You would then quickly dismiss this as nonsense, show us the evidence, you need therapy... Double standards. Yeah sure. All the nonsense that is being shoved down peoples throats, that is nothing more than a cry for attention and getting rather tedious and boring and promotes nothing positive in society, but actually encourages more contempt and resentment. The LGBQTAA+1, I mean WTF is this supposed to represent? and what are the people who are supporting this trying to achieve? I think it's insulting and patronising for the people who are gay, lesbian... and people are getting tired of it. Lets focus on things that really matter like saving our planet, saving near on extinct species, famine, poverty, disease... sustainability for the human race. Kindness & harmony in society, real equality & inclusion... Or shall we continue to pander to attention seeking people who have nothing else to worry about? Do you think the starving poverty stricken dying people in third world countries give a flying f about people who are complaining about wanting to be identified as "they"? And for those that are whining about being born male/female and should have been the opposite. Wow! how insulting to those people who are born disabled. I'm very embarrassed that I suffer from body dysmorphia, because I know that I'm very fortunate to be relatively healthy and that there are millions of people who would trade places with me! Ok, Lets cut to the chase Educate me please, Define the difference between male & female If there is no difference explain to me why the term male & female exist Define the difference between man & woman If there is no difference then explain to me what the term man & woman represent Assuming the above answers are satisfied, when a man wants to be identified as a woman what does this mean? What if my definition of a man or a woman doesn't match another person's definition of a man or a woman , how do we categorise such? If a person born male claims they are really female what do they mean by this? Would you say that if a person believes they are something that they are physically not, this would be regarded (scientifically) as a mental issue? I'm more than happy to change my views on this matter if we can find some consistencies and common ground.