Unorthodo_x

Ok good perspective. What about DMT though. It naturally occurs all throughout the body and is produced in the pineal gland?

Unorthodo_x, on 19 Oct 2013 - 1:19 PM, said: Ok that's just not true. Because there are many cultures centered around these chemicals. I'm not sure it's logical to argue their biological function is to prevent consumption when they do exactly the opposite. True psychedelics are non-toxic, especially DMT which is eliminated in a matter of minutes by your body. There is no case in history of anybody or anything dying from ingesting a pure psychedelic. That about as ridiculous as saying pot is harmful. There is something extremely interesting going on with regard to DMT. Regardless of if it has spiritual implications or not.

So go find me ONE out of the 7,000 that actually scans peoples brains....and doesn't just have the random scattered words somewhere in the literature:brain, scan, and psychedelic. Because I just looked and I can't find one....except the psilocybin study. And MDMA which is referenced in some of these is not a psychedelic it's an amphetamine. I thought I was gonna have to give you some real credit and bow down about this but If you actually look at the references none of them are actual brain scan studies. FYI: Your profile pic...the Fibonacci spiral in your pic is pretty damn awesome. I was trying to show this to my daughter the other day on a pine cone...she's a little to young though to sit still and appreciate it. I never agued you should except my word at face value that is just completely false. I argued there are valid reasons for my positions. I would love to find you a piece of literature...and I will if I can find the time. If you want to be educated on the matter I just wanted you to know there is literature out there. Ignoring the field wasn't really my gripe..although I can see how it might be interpreted that way. My gripe is that science in general is extremely rigid to "out of the box" ideas. People spend there entire lives building a model/theory and when people come in challenging the classical interpretation people resist. I saw this in mechanical engineering school ALL the time. I would question professors on scientific laws and they would always tell me the same thing....it will always be that way. Which is kind of odd considering that's the true SLOW march of science. Old ideas fall away, and new ideas replace them. While some laws might hold the test of time I've always advocated that we should examine all angles. I always come back to the famous quote "scientific progress is measured in tombstones" because the academic pillars resist elemental change. And maybe I could be wrong, In reality my experience is anecdotal and not truly representative of the entire scientific landscape. I will fully concede that I could be wrong. But if I feel this way, there has to be a substantial amount of other scientific minds that feel the same. I would also like to say my main interest was just to see how Atheist interpret this: DMT is: scientifically shown to be ubiquitous in nature, ubiquitous in the human body and brain, and produced in the pineal gland. There is a purposeful biological function that DMT excites. Ignoring it would be no different than ignoring any of the other important evolutionary biological mechanism. It has a meaning, a purpose, and an evolutionary history. You can't just dismiss it. I guess I should have made a separate post.

I don't have the interest, time, or desire to dig up all the pertinent information for you. I would be will to bet my entire bank account that if you polled Neurologist in America an overwhelming percentage would say they believe consciousness comes from the physical brain. There is some very interesting research going on but it's an extremely small sliver of the spectrum. All of the papers here look at what part of the brain causes OBE's or how they can be triggered.....pretty interesting but I sure don't see any new takes which is exactly what I'm talking about. I've yet to see a finished paper examine if these peoples consciousness IS actually outside of their body. There is a current research being done on just that and I can't wait to see the end results. Like I said either interpretation is just as interesting but we should examine all possibilities. I know guys I'm totally wrong here...science loves the weird fringe topics...and scientist love to study them...and without disdain from most of the academic world. Look at the state of current psychedelic research...it's picking up pace but a far as I know there has only been ONE brain scan study done in the entire field. That's pretty abysmal.

Science has ignored this field of study for so long. There are always going to be phenomena beyond our comprehension but that doesn't mean you should stop pursuing scientific exploration of the phenomena. For some reason science shuns people studying alternative takes on consciousness. I would just like to see the scientific community stop shunning people for trying to conduct respectable research.

I might if I can find the time. My point was that there is plethora of information on this topic. You can easily find a copy of DMT-The Spirit molecule by Rick Strassman. And I'm not sure what good a scientific paper in a reviewed journal is gonna do for you when these experiences are peoples conscious perceptions, and there is no current scientific method of quantifying consciousness. I'm skeptical science could come up with a falsifiable statement regarding an individuals experience on these matters. Some things just aren't falsifiable, but that doesn't discredit the thousands if not millions of people who have reported these types of experiences. There was and interesting recent case of a Neurologist who had a stroke. His father was also a Neurologist so his post-stroke state was monitored and documented exceptionally well. The region of his brain that neuroscience says is responsible for consciousness was completely shut down during this ordeal. And at that time he had one hell of a conscious experience to say the least, so his life is now dedicated to researching what science has neglected for so long. If I'm not mistaken this was on an episode of WNYC RadioLab. So you either have to believe that the thousands of people who have reported these experiences are either lying or you believe it is just a construct of the mind. I find the latter just as interesting. The DMT experiences where part of a scientific study and were published so that should give you some basis for discussion on the topic. So what does that mean to you?.....I think it was 65 individuals who had roughly 600 experiences and they all reported extremely similar phenomena i.e. other worldly encounters with unknown "intelligent beings" as well as "soul expanding" experiences. All from a molecule produced by your very own pineal gland. I'm genuinely interested in how you would interpret that. Because regardless of the implications I would think we could both agree that is mind bogglingly interesting! I forgot to say that to be completely rational here there is no way one can know if consciousness can exist after death So I enjoy an optimistic position because it's.....optimistic!

I will argue that there is evidence consciousness can exist outside of the body. For example the thousands of NDE's and OBE's experienced yearly. The Navy conducted a centrifuge g-force study and as a side affect confirmed consciousness could be "popped" out of the body repeatedly and predictably. DMT which is ubiquitous through out nature has been scientifically proven to be produced in the pineal glands of rats "the 3rd eye." DMT has also been shown to produce nearly identical out-of-body out-of-this-dimension episodes in humans with a side affect profile safer than any drug or substance I have ever came across, it has also been known to convert many proud atheist. Many buddhists who have practiced meditation their entire lives will tell you they experience a oneness with all other human beings and that we're all tiny fraction of one greater "collective consciousness." If you want to be truly educated on human consciousness you need to develop a meditation practice, experiment with DMT and/or 5-MEO DMT, and OBE's (there are many techniques to induce OBE's). Anyone who consider themselves an atheists, or is on the fence about consciousness, should absolutely experience DMT of some form....it will undoubtedly shift your perspective on life and this universe. All of these pieces together are a little hard to just ignore or dismiss. I know DMT and psychedelic experiences are very taboo but I think that's nonsense. The psychedelic experience is given to us by nature and is profound to say the least. I understand why most people would be afraid of it but I don't believe it is rational to just dismiss such an extraordinary state of consciousness because of "injected societal bias." I will also say that I concede it is possible that we do just cease to exist in any fashion when we die.