thief

Thief here... I didn't see the word 'impossible' used in the Webster's, when noting the difference between random, and predictable. What reference are you using?

Thief here... So...if the word 'unpredictable' cannot be used to describe events difficult to foretell.... And...if 'random' cannot be used to describe events difficult to foretell... Then...you would say ALL events are predictable?

Thief here... So your stance would be that.... Time does exist beyond the chalkboard. As if it be substance or force? Time in a bottle?

Thief here... I stepped away from this discussion because it became an argument. And not well done either. Half of the participants want to label movement, and the other half are trying to rip the label off. Let's try something simple. See yourself meditating while sitting on a sphere. Are you moving? can't say...no reference. Picture a second sphere in front of you....are you moving? Can't say...both spheres could be moving in parallel lines...or the sphere you're sitting on... could be rotating and the sphere in front of you could be orbiting...or no movement at all. Picture a third sphere at a distance. Distance unknown. No telescopes. No measuring device. No units. The third sphere appears to be moving. How would you know? you have eyes. Time is a ratio. Measuring devices, and numbers had to be invented first, so that this ratio could become 'something'. Can movement happen without the equation? yes. That some of you insist on numbers...doesn't mean the other guy got it wrong. Most things will continue onward...whether we clock them or not.

Thief here...a critique on the meaning I suppose is fair enough. So...I looked in Webster's and found that random events do not have patterns! So...your rebuttal to my use of the word 'random' is correct. Then, I look for the word unpredictable. It refers to things that cannot be foretold. In light of this...the initial post could be rephrased. I believe the asking was about events that cannot be foretold. "Do unpredictable events exist?" Then I reconsider the demo I described earlier. I cannot predict where the first three points will be. I cannot predict where the fourth (starting point) will be. The roll of the cube, the choice of corner, the pending measure to be made.

Thief here... I wasn't thinking miracles, when I wrote my last post. Random events are essential to everything. Without random events many things will cease. Evolution. Creative thinking. Pleasant surprises. If all things were predictable....you would be so bored! It is the random give and take...the ebb and flow...that makes this world possible. Using numbers to predict an outcome is all fine and good. Such skill is useful when trying to manipulate your surroundings. But to consider that such effort will ever become complete unto itself? I think not.

Thief here... I think you've got it backwards. We seem to agree that random events do exist. But the events don't need numbers or explanation. The dandelions, the ocean waves, the rain and wind, the flight of the insect... the long list of such things....were all doing just fine...long before numbers were invented by Man to help him reason about such things. That we try to make our world more controlled is natural. Man was made to subdue all things. Equations help him do so to some things. It is ironic that same goal, will elude us. No matter how many equations you have.

Thief here....please see post seven...this thread. Random events repeat, and many people are using numbers hoping to get a better handle on this item. It's the repetition that generates the patterns. In regards of post seven....you could take the roll of the dice....and the pocket scale for the measure....replace them with your own choice of corner..at random...and replace the measure with a drafting divider. The demo will take longer....but the results will be the same. Triangles will appear without numbers.

Thief here... Defend your equations as you care to. The topic is...does randomness exist? Yes. And that's it!

Thief here.... That a mathematical technique has been developed does not indicate it's ability to predict an exact result. Can your equations plot the path of dandelion in flight? Can you be sure the landing location? This is what random events are about. Numbers don't apply to everything.

Thief here... Before we start doing a lot of numbers.... Let me point out that equations lean toward exact results and therefore exact predictions. Random events don't have that quality. Randomness deals in probabilities. If you can..... equations that demonstrate probability might work. But, equations having exacting quantities and results..... 'probably' won't.

Thief here...I've been busy, Throng....not sure of your last post. Just a quick look and run... Some artists, (like myself) can make a drawing look quite good...like a photo. But for all the effort it takes...the drawing is considered 2d. Looking directly over the edge...you cannot be sure what you see. Above the plane...the image appears to take shape....be not yet 3d. Drawings are optical illusions. Translate the drawing into a carved object....3d. You can have any number of points in a plane...show any shape...but without a point above or below the plane....it's all flat....2d....width and length... no height.

Thief here...as I suspected. It's a linguistic problem. I looked up real in the Webster's. It is correct to say time is 'real'. Mathematicians do so.... in that quantities on the chalk board, are considered (mathematically) real. Laymen use the word 'real' in reference to those things tangible. Two separate uses.

Thief here... I think you're overlooking something. Repeated action produces predictable results. It's not the science of numbers that so many people favor. But because the results repeat...then some are willing to say.. Chaos is science.

Thief here... It's been about a year since I saw the demo...please forgive the lack of reference. The demo was simple. Choose three points on large paper....and a forth point inside the triangle. Label the corners one thru six. Grab some dice...throw one cube away....roll the remaining cube. From the fourth point, measure halfway to the corner chosen by the cube. Make a point there. Roll again. Measure halfway to that corner from the second point. Continue. As you do so, a pattern will form. Congruent triangles. Overlapping, and various size, but all having the same proportions as the original boundary. The science program was announcing the new science of Chaos. Numbers can be difficult to work in this new study. Try calculating the flight of a dandelion seed. But random events can repeat, and the repetition is what counts...even though the numbers don't work well.