hoola

if the visible matter is making up 5% of this universe, perhaps the extra gravity from dark matter can be accounted by the existence of other universes each contributing a roughly equal amount of gravity force, making up the balance of the total gravitational effects observed. This would tend to infer a finite number of co-universes only interacting gravitationally, but otherwise ignoring one another....It seems possible that there are other commonalities to look for, and gravity is the most obvious one...the latest pictures of the "dark matter" threads as lensed by the quasar are fantastic.....edd

David..I think if we want a true TOE, we have to take mathematics as an occurrence, but only as a required output from the underlying logic. Unless you want to consider something as "eternal" or a steady-state, or given by "god" fully formed, then things such as math and logic, which are so obvious they become the last of the "elephants in the room" to be seen, have to be considered as "things" just as other physical phenomena have been. Identifying the obvious stuff such as masses of particles and the nature of light requires a further "breaking down" of the constituent parts of these phenomena, into the parts themselves, those parts being the maths...and then breaking down the maths.....why consider them sacrosanct, and beyond "the grace of the gods and will of the king" to do so..? If math is the foundation of the all, what is the foundation of maths? I believe there is an answer to the question. Providing a most logical block diagram of a flow chart of how this could have happened, will have to do for now.../.....The idea of more than one universe does take some getting used to, but if that is the truth, seems we have to "like it" as our universe's existence may depend upon the existence of some other universe or universes, in order for any universe to exist. I rebelled at the idea when I first heard about it too...it seems to add complexity to our situation which seems quite complex enough already...who needs another universe to consider in the day-to-day musings on what kind of enviornment this universe really is...but to me, the detection of dark matter was the salient point that eventually swayed my thinking. Now, I like the idea of other universes, but draw the line at a finite number of them...I don't like the idea of a doppelganger doing a repeat of my life in the "infinite universes model"...that seems to indicate a loss of uniqueness to my life. With my ideas on how the universe got started, I see a line of reasoning that there are a finite number of universes, and a finite number of "things" within each universe. The only "infinite" thing I consider is the "chaos" and that is the one special case..../....free will is what defines a conscious being, if you are conscious, you have free will..thinking is the ultimate act of manipulation of data.../....as far as "controlling space with our minds", we do have a limited capacity to do so now. We can move a pile of books from one side of the self to the other....of course, I presume you are describing something a little more outlandish than that, such as the heisenberg principle of observer effects on experiment....In that case. such things such as whether a photon shows up as wave or particle in the 2 slit experiment is good example of how consciousness (or logic) and the observer effect has a real meaning. I think the presence of logic in the experiment, by the observer, is the key, not the fact that the observer was human, or had a pre-set desire to see one particular outcome over the other. I say, this is a reveal that logic itself it a fundamental force, and needs to be further addressed as a thing, with a eye towards seeing if it can be a describable "thing", and that this "thing" described the maths, which describes us...I have a mod on the anthropromorphic model of "the universe couldn't exist without intelligent life in it", with a partial agreement. I say, this or any universe cannot exist without the presence of logic within it....and logic itself is not alive, and certainly not intelligent, but is the foundation of everything including intelligence. We are the icing on the cake, but not required for the cake to exist....edd

I read your entry with interest, I see evidence that "math is all", however predictability seems less than likely. I say, math is all, but math is an evolutionary process, that it had a beginning, middle and possible end, and what we see is a result of the process as it stands today. Since the "wheel still in spin" is allowing changes to occur, I see a fundamental barrier to predict any future outcome within the universe. Randomness of the quantum will always shade a perfect outcome to becoming a bracketed guestimate. Someone may come along and figure out a precise algorithm and be able to assure compete prediction, which would be a return to classical physics in gross bodies. But what about human beings? We are a manifestation of maths too, if everything else is...with that knowledge combined with free will, we could see what we would be doing in the future. And we could 'mess" with that outcome, doing something opposite of what math would have predicted we do....that is but one example of the impossibilites surrounding predictibility. If mathematics can develop "free will", as through us, then a crude relation can be drawn between the complexities of the human mind and the "3 bodies orbiting" issue. You state that the universe is a mathematical model "bounded only by itself".... If math spontaneously arose, in full complexities, I could see you saying that...but from whence did math come from? One must consider that, if indeed math arose from some less complex format, (logic) then that this pre-formal math must have come from something else (chaos), so there may be many more "players" in the field than a lone mathematical figure, and those other players may still have some direct bearing on the outcome of the game...unseen, but within the sphere of influence....edd the heading reads "an investigation into the mechanics of gravity and dark energy"....I see a possible relationship between dark matter and gravity.....and see dark energy as a more obvious form of the "wheel in spin"...and how the maths "do work"...while the commonality of gravity forces between dark matter and our universe tends to suggest another universe or universes co-exists with ours, having no (obvious) physical relation to our universe, except that particular feature...edd

yes, the number 13 was born, but that is late in the process, that is a result of the geometry of the point. I'd rather talk about chaos....(.basics first .).... I say there is nothing in the chaos but degenerate information.....if I said there was "nothing" there, or left that impression, I am sorry... I will have to re-read the whole thing to be sure. But let me state what I feel now about the issues as it is an on-going thing and subject to mods and re-statements of previous postulations....OK....now, the chaos has information that has a predominant instability (lack of logic), so as to prevent any information within having any long term relationships with each other, as the information, which I see as theoretical "bits" having only randomly occurring appearances and properties, even in the realm of the theoretical. As you see, I have begun to segment out the concept of "theoretical" into 3 basic parts. 1. quasi-theoretical 2. transitional - T. 3. formal T. In the case of the chaos, there is the smooth randomness of complete entropy(quasi-T), as the "particles" ( as they can be thought of), but they're really only theoretical "bits" with no values, but, lets consider them for the sake of illustration that they are particles. First, what is entropy in particles in our universe? It is a reduction to the minimum energy state of a particular particle, if my understanding is correct. What can now be said about this particle? It is still a particle, with a measurable mass, charge and spin.......Now consider the chaos with it's "particles" at complete entropy....they are at their lowest energy level, but also have no measurable mass, charge, spin....not that they don't have any, but they are in constant flux, faster than can allow enough stability within the chaos for an identifiable label to affixed to any point within it....so the quasi-T is the chaos, the formal-T is the interior of the "logic bubble" and the transitional-T is the perimeter surface, where the real work gets done in conversion of chaos's quasi-T to formal-T.....this process is perhaps a catalytic one, vaguely similar to a quartz crystal developing its ordered geometry(more logical) from an amorphous raw material supply (less logically arranged atoms) , I have no serious thinkings yet I will offer on why this is occurs in the transit-T stage. I am interested in thinking about certain aspects of the transit-T. stage, in that , if the chaos bits are there and have a high frequency of variations in their values, then all that needs to be accomplished is to slow down that change to a reasonable lower frequency of change, so mathematical (or force) relationships can be formed. So, it only seems a matter of figuring out how the frequency lowering or "freezing out" the particular contents is required. This seem to indicate that the material is in a super-hot state, and the parameter shifts keep "linkages" between partners from happening......but that is only a rough analogy to a familiar condition...anyway, how "slow" must this speed be in order to allow interactions? If we look at the universe, things do change on their own, with weak radioactivity, proton decay, and related (you probably know more examples than I ) so, one might say that even in our "formal logic-driven" world, parameters do change spontaneously....so there is some handle to start thinking about the "speeds of default change" within our universe, on average, vs. the speeds of change within the chaos, on average....since radioactive decay seems such a easy analogy to what I am referring to, it is tempting to think they are somehow related, in that the frequency of random parameter shifts in the chaos was lowered, but never reached zero....as evidenced by spontaneous decays within our universe..as a hold-over from pre bang...things are still "breaking down" but a vastly slower rate.....edd I am considering the "break-down" transition period in which a change occurs, similar to the shift of an electron in the valence order of an atom...isn't that supposed to be an instant transition period? That is the rate of changes I am talking about when I say that the possible values of the chaos are always changing....the rate is an equivalent speed as to the electron's shuffling atomic levels....I say the speed is not instantaneous, but much faster than measurable, and that same speed seems to show up in straight line gravity effects and entanglement failure with it's spooky action at a distance...also, the proposed speed of inflation....edd

the area in question has a perimeter, that is the border between the infinite chaos and the finite "bubble" of organized information within it. The transition between the two is indeed the perimeter boundary. The "example" of logic is the property of information within the bubble having a fixed value or value set. This allow long term relationships to occur within the bubble. That I define as the "observation" of logic occurence.....Exterior to the bubble, in the chaos, the information is there, but is not evolved to the point of determinancy of values, so if the information is of a digital nature, that being something akin to a base 2 computer format, a "bit" will not remain "stable" and will transit to a "no bit" state randomly and then back again. This constant fluxing of value, allows limited time for the information to begin relationships, or exchanges of values between them, except by random transients. It is that inablility to form anything more complex informationally from the basic elements within (as an average condition) , that brands the chaos as having insufficient logic to "evolve" to more complex conditions. The chaos remains unchanged under normal circumstances. It is by the rare conditions I have already written about that randomness dictates an occaisional bit to remain ordered, and those rare bits become the "seed" of logic which can be self-perpetuating under even rarer conditions as described by the "density" requirement. That is the difference. Logic has order and illogic has none ( or a trivial amount), not enough to "do work" and the boundary point, which is expanding as the bubble grows, is the perimeter. I see the universe itself expanding into the chaos, that is what is on "the other side"....logic within, chaos without....just as the primordial few logic based bits somehow persisted in the chaos, everything is from that catalytic seed, which is still growing. Perhaps that continued growth is what we perceive as our universe's cosmic expansion...into the infinite sea of chaos....edd

the areas I am talking about ?..OK.....2 basic areas, one I call the chaos of infinite area with unstable parameters of whatever it consists of. Since the values are unstable, the content cannot be described. The second area is a region or regions that occaisionally develop stable values within them, subsisting within the chaos, due to random fluctuations. Statistics demands that once in a while, a particular parameter might remain fixed as to it informational content. I say, that if enough value stable content persists past a certain time limit, and if those particular stable descriptions are in a proximate state (density), a symbiotic relationship can take place, as to cause an expanding region to maintain a long term area of stable value parameters within it. This long term stable parameter is a sort of ''freezing out" of all possible values to some more fixed value....... It is this stability property of any value appearing within the universe that describes a "logic" to have occured if more than one content stable component develops a long-term symbiotic mathematical relationship with partners........ I use this term in perhaps a novel way, in that the chaos is "illogical" with it's meandering values and the small areas within have a stable single value or finite value set, or "logical"....I did try to read both web sites, I just went back and tried to read the upper one, and it still won't open. The lower one did and I have read it before, but concerns what happened after the bang, with the heavy math I don't understand well enough to have an opinion on. I stick to the lead up to the bang and therefore use apollonian pure logic, and stay away from the briar patch of complex maths...which did "burst forth" from the confinement of the singularity to describe reality....if that is what you are saying, I am in complete agreement in a foundational sense. I am attempting to learn complex maths, and will be playing catch-up for years to come....the universe needs to be reverse engineered with math, but at some point, (the pre-bang I think), math will be unuseable for a further exploration back in time to the point in which something comes from nothing....that of course includes the chaos as I define it as a "real thing" which itself came from a previous state. So, still no end in sight, but the ball has been kicked down the road a bit...if only in my own mind.....edd

thoughts as to chaos and wave duality. I see the issue of forcing a photon to "decide" if it shows itself as a wave or particle as with the 2 slit experiment, having a foundation within properties of the chaos. What decides if the photon shows up as a particular form seems to be as it is "observed", it has to "decide" which way to appear. As strange as that seems, (and if that is a good understanding of what the experiment actually means), let me say that the chaos is of a similar format, in that the information within it doesn't have to "decide" which parameter it is as there is no "observer", that is until logic appears in brief random areas. That does the job as defacto "observer". This would cause associated internal and nearby regions within the chaos to "have to decide" what value they have of the information present within the region in question. The states of normal matter when being broken down in accelerators is a similar concept. If a particular thing, such as a proton is broken with collisions, the resultant particle is changed to a number of intermediate briefly appearing particles, which they themselves break down until some stable end result is produced. I imagine the chaos as a sea of these "intermediates" never being allowed to stabilize at one particular value, so long term arrangements can't be done, until a seed of logic acts as a catalyst to produce a region of "observer determined stability". The observer causes a substantially fixed value to the information by, in the words of modern quantum mechanics, causing a "collapse of the wavefront", or making the cat either dead or alive, by opening the box,so to speak. In the case of the chaos, which seems logical to presume is a base 2 schematic, a bit remains of bit and a no bit remains a no bit, giving the "inertial stability" instead of the self-negating degeneracies of indeterminism.....edd the whole idea of an observer making a real difference in the 2 slit experiment is a most ludicrous thing.....the very idea of observation does tend to make one think of.... what other "observers" can do the job of a person who observes the experiment in question?? Could a sentient robot cause the same collapse of wavefront? A monkey with it's eyes tricked into focusing on the salient readout? Is the very appearance of a logic driven observer the only requirement, and at what order of logic is the minimum required to do the job? Could the very appearance of logic be a sufficient causative factor in the chaos to cause changes? I say yes, but not in the "real world" as it has evloved to a fairly stable value-set, with enough stability to allow reality to persist. It in effect is "observing itself" in broad terms. But the chaos, not having any logic within is much more sensitive to any minor observer effects, as primitive logic must have been. So, it seems there is a default minimum value of logic in the chaos, that agglomeration or accumulation of logic sub-structures that crossed a threshold value to cause an observer effect to take place. That observer effect could be of a catalytic nature once it got established and would perhaps be a bit of a runaway process leading to expanding regions within the chaos giving way to large areas of logic-ruled information.....our universe, except on very small scales in which information still shows a remnant of it's "rebellious" past and must be forced to decide something it normally doesn't have to. This "lawlessness" at the heart of reality seems kinda scary, thank goodness on the macro scale, things seems to be rather obediant in the command to remain largely as they are....as the unexamined life isn't worth living, the unobserved universe cannot exist....edd I have read of the "anthropromorphic" (sp) universe as a universe not being in existence unless life exists within it....I see an association to this idea, with the caveat that life does not need to exist, only logic....and logic is not life, or alive itself. So, my idea of a logic catalytic action causing the universe to exist doesn't mean that any advanced thinking machines, such as ourselves need to exist....and that humans may be a rare and unnecessary curiousity to anything but ourselves....and only the default minimum level of logic "density" needs to exist in order to bring about universe construction from the chaos....edd

the "area" in question would no doubt be large, or at least the accumulations of areas within the chaos would be, considering the amount of information required to build a rudimentary logic "device". Regardless of size of the area or areas within, the finite area size in comparison to the chaos, which I define as infinite, would be a dimensionless point. Any finite area in comparison to an infinte area is effectively a point. What gets extracted is the particular random areas of whatever the chaos is made from....if it has "no rules of order", but still contains information, then the information must be of a constantly changing form and value, never allowing form or shape to appear within it. No consistencies. However, if by random events, some order developed, and was self-sustaining in it's ability to isolate itself within the chaos for sustained periods, then things might progress in a specific area to a long term order, or agglomerations of areas of reduced entropy. The main thing here is that there is information within the chaos, but the values are indeterminate and in constant flux. With determinant values being "attached" to particular math structures by the constraints of logic, the first stable math relationships can occur. This begins with the first "bit" of information that remains at a fixed value. We would call this a "one". The theoretical physical analogue is spherical, of which I talked about already...as with the "shape" leading to a numerical output....the regions of chaos outside the "special areas" allowed by logic would have no stability. What offers stability to chaos?.... Logic. So, first the chaos, then logic, then maths....one could ask, well, where did this "discordant chaos" come from.....good question. Seems one has to consider the case of a....."6 turning out to be a 9"......until it forced to appear as one or the other by logic restraints, it seems "free" to do both or neither.....so as information has to be "organized" to do math, components within the chaos have to held to specific values to do "logic". One can only say at this point that the chaos is proto-information en-route to being evolved to become "real" , or stably measurable information....and once the process begins, under at least one circumstance, things got interesting...edd.

logic would have been initiated by an area of reduced entropy within the chaos, allowing some arrangements between particular components of the chaos to establish "working relationships". The act of giving a reliable relation between components of the chaos allows information to appear, as the components of information must have a stable internal relationships in order to do "work". Once this information has "appeared" within the chaos, there is a inherent locality being born, or something at a particular region is of a certain quality, and in another area, has a different value....hence the differentiation of space or the beginnings of geometry. Add to this perhaps trillions of years and enough pockets of information accumulate within the chaos, and a "surface" develops with increasing complexity, and that this surface is the combined information of the random arrangements which posess an internal logic "inertia", of differing qualities, adding up to achieve a "completed logic set". This is the rule set that takes the basic geometry established and allows theoretical descriptive "work" to give an identifier to the area as a "point" within the chaos. The first beginnings of the singularity. With the point being described in simplest terms as what is known as a sphere, the rule set describes the parameters of the sphere, which has PI as underlying theoretical constraint. This starts off the 3.14159..... with real numbers (13 included), in a form of theoretical memory, as each new calculation requires a "memory" of the previous tally to engage another calculation. This calculation and retrieval from memory requires time, and that establishes the basic unit of time, and the other values will follow as developed by this initial "quantumization" of time. This explains john wheeler's...."why the quantum"? Why the newly organized area within the chaos would develop a "memory" is one of the more interesting things, explainable only yet as a logic act required to be performed in order to allow a universe to "hang together" and attributable to one of the sub-sets of overall logic formulations. This also has a physical correlation in the concept of "inertia", or a physical memory of movement. I believe that universes are born fairly regularly, but are "still-born" universes, that do not have all the required logic subsets to have a sustainable maturation...but enough components are attributed within the chaos to occaisonally allow a "mini-bang" to appear in the universe in deep space...I see that the odds of getting a "full pallette" of logic subsets under such conditions is quite rare, perhaps only happening once in the history of the universe. I do feel as though more than one universe was born with the bang, a set of universes, with gravity as a commonality, hence the detection of them through dark matter effects....edd ps...and is the sphere the simplest described geometric form? question...is time slowing down? If time is graduated by the retrieval and recalculation of the next digit in PI, then each recalculation should take a little longer to do, if the entire algorithm must be recalculated in order to get the next digit.....seems I heard about some experiments being done that were to check for such a time anomaly that were thought might exist...I can't remeber the exact details, but it had something to do with measuring a precise distance to the moon....edd as to the exact instant that 13 was created, I don't know other than to say there was one. Much of it revolves around PI being scale invariant or not...I don't know that yet, but presume it is invariant. Since the simplest scale is base 2, I presume calculations are performed with that scale. It is possible then, that the number 13 was "invented" with the 13th calculation of the algorithm of PI, but that is a yet to be seriously thought about subject...edd.

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yes there was time before numbers if one accepts that time is any change of the informational content of any particular region. Yes, I do think that the number 13 was born at a certain "point" within the singularity, as indicative of a change within said region, time has passed and that "point" is a finite registered point that will someday be determinable with a proper analysis of the number "PI". To say that 13 might not exist in the future, is true, but only if the universe itself somehow disappears along with it. I don't see that happening anytime soon, and might be preventable in the future with a proper grounding in universe construction. To try to conceive of logic "early on", I think of it as information that has some similarities to simple logic, combined with information of the chaos of an unknown spectrum. I arrange the information within the chaos in two broad categories,.....truth and beauty. Truth relates to the finer detail of the proposed spectrum and beauty relates to the overall "surface" energy pattern. Within the chaos, I see truth as doing the supporting structure of chaos and the overall result indicates a form of evolution. The very loss of information that results from the some of the inside information being unexpressed, along to the outside, or surface information (or signal), indicates work being done....hence the beginning of evolution. A "paring down" of information, thus acting as an agent by establishing the simple concept of "something is inside of something else" (....the beginnings of geometry). I see the process continuing from chaos to simple logic to formal logic to maths to singularity to bang to inflation to us. It really seems quite beautiful to think of things this way regardless of the validity of it and amounts to a religion of sorts, albiet a logical one and one that attempts an objective outlook on how we got here and an understanding the physical parmeters of our environment. This allows a certain distancing from standard human logic towards a more "awareness in the universe" objectivity.....edd numbers....an analysis of numbers themselves as constructed by logic.... I see the first "bit" as developed from and earlier concept of the chaos. That is the concept of "there is finite region within the infinite", therefore a sequestering of one thing from the other, or something can exist with a finite boundary....as expressed mathematicaly with a "one finite area" and geometrically with a "point". The point being circular, has the logic given formulae of PI within in, so begins baroque whole number generation. This shows the co-evolution of math and physicality and the close roots that they share....as the whole numbers accumulate, the underlying logic allows the numbers to establish a "framework" of math structure that begins a series of internal mutations, as anything the underlying logic permits, will tend to occur. So divisions between the numbers begins (along with a lot of other stuff) that begins the "filling in" of fractions between whole numbers. This continues to our present day, with increasinly fine points of intemediacies being formulated. This gets around the "infinite point" pardox to movement. Sure, the universe is cooking up new points all the time, and has been doing so for forever, and heading towards the infinte, but never getting there, even at the fastest rate of calculations allowed by formal logic....I think this "fastest rate" limit of calculation speed allows the concept of graduated time to occur, ( keeps everything from happening at once) and is a basis for other fundamental values of the physical universe. ..edd I have left out this as to my envisioning of the chaos/reality relationship in physical relations, as there is one. The chaos is an infinite background noise containing the slightly overlapping / interacting universes, with a casual physical relationship detectable by dark matter gravity estimates. So, when I talk about the "chaos", I am not talking some remote abstraction, but a real thing which we might measure and gain enough information we can translate into something more understandable. By this have a better understanding of how logic "multiplied" into maths. This is not to say I think the chaos is anything but theoretical, but profoundly theoretical...the first gossamer threads for don juan to climb on..... I have referred to the singularity being a point geometrically. I should have said, the singularity is the shape that requires the least amount of information to describe it.....what is simplest shape mathematically?

it would difficult to give an "example". My basis is to propose that there was a time period before numbers, and without numbers to "examine itself", I go to the next available structure that I propose is underlying the maths, that being logic. The only way to address logic in this reduced field, is with logic. Theoretically, something of a finer division could do the job, but in this scenario, the chaos is the only thing left. At this stage of weak understanding of chaos, logic is the best device with which to work with...which to begin a bracketing of parameters of the structure of logic, or at least a logical flow chart leading from chaos to formal logic. But, with a crude idea of the structure of the chaos, with a few basic surmises, one could use the last step in a chaos proposal in conjunction with the first step in a logic proposal and see what various candidates make the best fits. So, attacking the problem on each of the nodes within logic, and then between logic and the chaos interface seems an interesting thing to try....the main stumbling block seems to be examining logic as it must have been early on, and deducing it's changes, as change in concepts, using some form of internal communication necessary to any evolution. Here I propose this to be a "logic latin", a pre-math language either discarded or modified when math developed. Perhaps, the logic latin is hidden within formal mathematics, as a sort of "background noise" which at some point could be subtracted out to reveal details....edd if you want a specific example as to the "detection of a signal" using logic as a signal processor, this would be similar as to a detection stage within a radio. The sine wave information coming into the detector would be self cancelling with it's identical sidebands. With the detection circuit, half of the waveform is in cutoff, giving the analog audio you can hear. I propose logic fufills that function in extracting information from the chaos by the same conceptual premise with the reduction of input, by allowing only certain components to pass through, and rejecting others, hence a "useable signal".....numbers edd I also propose that the chaos may not entirely isolated from extant reality....it seems gravity is showing the existence of "dark matter", so gravity seems a bit of a commonality to all universes, and perhaps even from what the universes came from.....if we were to know and catalogue all known universes with certainty, based upon dark matter gravity effects, I propose a higher than estimated figure of overall gravity effects would be noted, and the discrepancy would be due to some gravity coming from the chaos itself. If the gravity of chaos is leaking through, perhaps some note of it will be in the CMB....perhaps further, this leakage would give clues to not only the workings of the chaos, but the "pipeline" of logic it came through to get here. This in the fashion of using nuetrinos to examine a stars' inner workings....edd

qsa.....the "entities" within the chaos was logic...the supporting rule set that allows information to function in only certain ways, giving stability to a region within the chaos. Where else could logic come from, but from a selected area of the infinite sea of chaos (background noise), where any possibility can occur. At some point a "great attractor" sustains itself of the background noise with a form of "cathodic logic device" in that information of a certain algorithm is allowed through like a semi-permeable membrane, ending the self-negation occuring exterior to the "device". (I say cathodic as the information is neccesarily limited, as in a solid state device or tube cathode, by current (information) mostly flowing in one direction, giving an "output".....) Why these entities, and not others? Well, I set up a few basic requirements and these seem to fit.....and these are only "place-keepers" in the ongoing attempt to formulate a rational TOE david...right, math is a language and you are doing the speaking......but logic made and continues to make the rules.....we can make rules too but only on how to describe discovered information, not on the information itself......that job seems taken.....edd

it is time to make some quick surmises as to the content and character of the chaos. If our universe, via the logic supporting us, and by association, the roots of our universe, were in the chaos and if the chaos is infinite, then any possible universe's particular logic set is in the chaos too. Which means that an infinite number of possible universes is within the chaos, but a finite number have so far been developed from it's parameters, whatever that be. This means that not only is our universe "off and running" and doesn't need any more information from the chaos to exist, a divide between knowledge of how the universe came about and it's current informational content seems apparent. So, if the universe contains no information pertaining to it's pre-bang orgins, that doesn't mean that at some point, via sentient awareness, the issue would'nt be raised, therefore indicating that underlying math is capable of supporting such sophisticated musings to occur within it.....one can only speculate if the universe "knows" or has the pertinent information embedded within math or logic structures to do so. When I say "knows", I mean that the universe "knows" how gravity, fields and energy/matter relationships work, as they seem very well rehearsed these days. I don't think there is a "mind" outside the physical in a sort of "meta-physical" way. I think humans and other sentient beings are the "strange attractors" that have the right form and formulation to do the job...edd

when I say mathematics is evolving, I say that if anything anywhere is evolving, math is the active element. Sure a circle isn't evolving, but that is a finished standard, like 10 fingers or being a quadra-ped. What I mean is the additional mathematical creatures evolving or extending current families of math's stratagems toward a realization of it's goal, whatever one might ascribe to that. Yes, math describes truth, but not everything it describes is true. All things.... true, false and everything in between are descriptions provided by a melange of required math families to fufill the "equation" of reality, as complex and seemingly self-negating as it is..... A clever thing can tell the truth, and then lie just as convincingly. It is the development of logic and empirical knowledge (memory) that allows successful evolution to take place , mainly by weeding out the less perceptive of a particular species. And if math doesn't "need" any reason to exist, that doesn't mean that at some point in the pre-universe it didn't...... If a need is fulfilled, the need is gone. The thing that needed it isn't. If it turns out that nothing "needs" to exist, so be it....especially if it is "synthetic" in a certain cartoonish sense. If that is so, it is would be difficult to assert it is completely fake..... and it is perhaps evolving toward knowing it's own origin (through sentience), and with that realization, as per Kurt Godel, it will cease to be a mere computer. Why can't need come after the fact of existence via another highly evolved algorithmic sub-program? It is difficult to imagine something as highly evolved a concept as "need" could have preceeded the primitive thing that does the needing. You might even say that a 2+2 "NEEDS" a 4 for completion. Perhaps that is the foundation of need in the mathematical universe and a starting point for more elaborate needs such as expressed by increasingly complex sets of math families. ...edd

I am using chaos in a non-mathematical way, as more of a common usage general term of maximum entropy of a particular system...not in the specific way it is used in chaos theory. I say this with a limited knowledge of how it is used in chaos theory. The main reason I am using it in a "non-mathematical" way is that I believe that if math is not eternal, then it had a beginning, middle and present condition, just as all things that can exist must have. So I see that math is a sophistcated form of order, so the natural source of maths is something with less order, or no order at all, hence my use of the term "chaos". My long term intention is to determine as much as possible how, why and from what, the maths evolved to their present state of maturity, and if they are not still in a process of evolution. This will require raw logic as we are dealing with things that existed in pre-mathematical states and therefore cannot be addressed by maths.....and therefore may never be provable..edd

my question was more to the order of....should we make our choices to best interact with : 1) the way the world is, by accepting it's corruption and living comfortably within it as an "insider" or 2) the way you think the world should be, and stand against perceived corruption, thereby having a constant running battle with ignorance, thereby being an "outsider"? It seems to me everyone to a certain degree has to bridge these two behaviors, but largely fall on the side of comfortable insider living....hence the inertia of societal structures tendency to not change quickly unless a large stimulus to do so cannot be avoided. Take integration within the united states in the 1950s. There would have been little progress in school integration in southern states without federal troops enforcing desegregation laws enacted by govenment. Now segregation seems a sad relic of the distant past....but overall society needed that "unavoidable stimulus" to get the ball rolling....I see the same thing upcoming with CO2 rise in the atmosphere....a few more giant hurricanes hitting major cities with be part of the "unavoidable stimulus" causing real change in human behavior. Both in reduction of CO2 production per capita and a corresponding reduction of overall human population......edd

tar, you have misread my thread...I said "if" it takes a infinite period...... I certainly agree with it no doing so, poking fun of the idea of infinites, by declaring their logical existence to cause a lack of motion, hence the singularity reference.......after all, the paradox, if valid would have allowed no motion of the inflation of the big bang....so no physical universe....edd

zeno's paradox shows the fallacy of any infinities within the universe...If it takes an infinite period of time to progress any finite distance, what you are describing is the singularity, pre-big bang.......only a potential of described of rabbits and hares moving within the singularity...luckily, reality has the quantum to keep things from freezing up, thus allowing movement....edd

when you say that maths are "platonic" does you mean that they are given an origin through a geometric source such as the dodecahedron and other purely theoretical constructs? I see the platonic component coming in later with the sphere, but as only a partner in the origin of complex maths. The formless infinite chaos is what I have in mind as a starting point. The sphere came in later as the singularity, as a necessary component along with logic formulations from the chaos, together leading to a combined effect of what we call the big bang....I see that logic construction must have preceeded any platonic constructions as the complex structure of any platonic device would need a "scaffolding" by logic. The scenario I see is 1) an area of entropy reduction within the chaos leading to 2) rudimentary logic evolving towards formal logic via a pre-mathematical language of unknown sort. 3) separation of logic within chaos creating a "point" (enter platonism). Even though the resultant logic is technically an area within the chaos, since the chaos in of infinite size, any finite area within it is, by comparison, can be considered a point. 4) the simplest form geometrically possible is a point, (singularity) the first "bit" of mathematical information. 5) the parameters of the spherical "bit" contains PI, regardless of size, This leads to creation of baroque maths within the singularity describing all primordial energies and as a final act, describes the dimensions...6) The dimensions allow release from the singularity of all previously described information. That release was the big bang. While this conjecture is almost certainly incorrect, I would hope it is at least "well phrased"...edd

mike, is this off-air viewing on an antenna, or are these programs available on satellite or high-speed? I presume your local tv stations went digital as ours did in '09........do they still tax people per number of tvs in the house in england? I will go and do a google search for uk bbc and see what happens. Thanks, edd

I have heard max tegmark say that in the mathematical universe, there is no "stopping point" as to the investigation of physical realities.....there is nothing that cannot come under scrutiny of the maths, since everything is math. That may be true up to a point (TOU), but where did the "maths" come from? That is a valid question to pose if you wish to deal with a true TOE that has no "givens" or at least the minimum amount of them as possible. I certainly agree in his assessment that a mathematical assignment to reality is the way to proceed, but that doesn't say why all the baroque math is "out there" to be used to cobble together this or any other universe....as I have written about in other threads, the maths are not "god given", or a fundamental theoretical entity that had no evolutionary past of it's own. I am not saying that there isn't a fundamental minimum, only that some precursor to the maths seems evident, with an evolution of a certain formulation of logic that led to the maths, originating from the chaos. I see the chaos as the irreducible minimum, if any minimum exists at all....I see the next logical step from wheeler's "why anything?" to.... "why maths?" and ultimately..... "why chaos?" edd

I am puzzled by the statement in entry #8..."in the classical hall effect the conductance does not take on quantized values"... If it has a value, by default is it not technically a quantized value?.....isn't every value in the universe under the quantum rubric? thanks, edd

I have heard the analogy of straight-line (static) gravity being a taut cord held between bodies with an instant transmission of forces, and dynamic gravity being ripples in the taut cord......I did see a problem with the analogy though, if the cord is so taut, no wiggles would be allowable.....so the only respected idea of faster than C velocity is the original inflation that occurred briefly at the big bang?...edd