514void

the center of position of the 2 sets of disks as they pass each other.

Newtonian mechanics is based on how things behave when forces are applied to them with directions and velocities, so I see why you would want to try and find directions and velocities of the relative mass transfer, and then add or subtract directions and velocities to the disks. but since the relative mass transfer is from torque you would get a bit confused about where to add these vectors, so you just apply them to compensate for the momentum change. ok, i will play your pigeon chess. So you say that the direction of energy transfer matters, then just attach the wires to the side of the motor, perpendicular to the disks so that the direction of the energy pushes and pulls the disks so that it doesn't affect the speed up and down. If the whole wire gets pushed away from the direction of current, that wouldn't matter because it is pushed the same amount in both directions.

I was trying to find out the actual cause of the velocity change of the disks during the spin transfer stage. but there is no physical cause, its all in the abstract mathematics, you can close this thread now since I understand where I went wrong.

so this imaginary force just adds velocity directly to the disks?

no batteries.

the motor that the disks is spun with it in the same frame, the wires that the energy goes through uses alternate current.

so you think that spinning a disk faster or slower will change its velocity?

the energy for the spin comes from the opposite pair going in the opposite direction. one takes the relativistic mass from the other without changing velocity. It is not balanced since the momentum of the relativistic mass does from downwards to upwards. even if the energy came from the container, the velocity of the disks would not change, why do you say it would?

so you don't understand it? you were confused about some points in the system, so I made it simpler so you would understand it better. I made an animation, lets work with that. There are 2 pairs of disks, they are paired so that the motor will not rotate, but it will rotate the disks in opposite directions. there are 2 pairs so that you can compare the combined forces and so that you can isolate the forces on the disks without adding the container to the problem. when the disks change velocity at the top and bottom of the container, assume that there is a force that is exerted on the disks and the container, (I'm not too good at doing animations of springs or magnets) But scientists should be able to understand it. (I hope)

so where in the the system does it create this equal change in momentum in the opposite direction?

I don't see why you would think that, I don't think that wishes or fairies would stop the system working. not effect anything that is non-physical? are you saying that it changes something that is non-physical and that is what cancels out any acceleration effect?

There are 2 disks sharing the same axle, and when the are spun up or slowed down the opposite and equal reaction is torque only. So when you gain or lose relativistic mass by spinning something, the velocity won't change but the momentum will. If you think that this is not physics then explain how.

this would imply that there is a preferred frame, that is a bold claim.

it is why it does work. Momentum of the relativistic mass is transferred from the downwards to the upwards without the "equal and opposite" reaction. The container reverses the disks so that they can cycle again (this is done with the "equal and opposite reaction" so it is like the momentum is realised).

yes, when the relativistic mass is transferred from one wheel to the other without changing their velocity and without any forces on any other parts of the system, that is why it would work.

If there is no change in velocity, then it is working as I have invisioned. because you were saying that it is like throwing mass. there is more force applied to the heavier object than the lighter object by the container. f=ma because the only forces on the container is when the disks are accelerated back towards the center by the container. because it is gained by the disk without changing its velocity. That some force is felt somewhere in the system, but this force doesn't seem to change any parts of the system? You say that moving energy from one disk to the other is like moving mass from one disk to the other, and this mass moving is not accompanied by any change in velocity. This doesn't cancel any acceleration of the system, it is part of how it works.

without any explanation of how any force that would stop it working would manifest.

how does the energy transfer phase change the velocity of the disks? I am going to use alternative current so there is no net electron mass change. but it also makes the container accelerate in one direction. and since the only force on the container is during the velocity transfer phase, it would continue to accumulate velocity. the CoM can be stationary in any accelerating frame you like, why does it matter? If relativistic mass is the reason might work, I think that maybe I shouldn't just use newtonian physics to understand it.

I have analysed that part that you think I am ignoring. The part where transferring energy to the spin of something. I am using relativity and especially the part about the no preferred frame. For if there is no preferred frame, how can any object change their velocity when torque is applied. The conservation of momentum law was stated by Issac Newton who was an avid absolutist. His argument against relativity was based on the fact that for every object there is an absolute spin for it to speed up or slow down against, and since relativity isn't absolutism I just found the parts that don't match in both theories and exploited it. So for this to work, relativity must be correct. For it to not work, absolutism must be correct.

during the spin transfer phase: there is a change in momentum from one spinning disk to the other due to relativistic mass, they don't change velocity. during the velocity changing phase. the one with more relativistic mass will act upon the container with more force, changing its velocity. what laws of physics does this defy?

ok, but you still seem to think that there is a magical force that carries translatory momentum from one set of spinning disks and the other. Otherwise you could easily state where the forces act on the disks during this phase.

o, I thought that the issue was the transfer of spin from one set of disks to the other, during this phase the only force that is acting on them is the torque from the motors. I don't see how any translatory momentum is transferred as well. I don't suppose that this is explainable. probably, but if it can accelerate a craft to faster speeds than conventional rockets, maybe it is worthwhile pursuing.

I don't see how the disks would know to speed up and slow down, the only force that is acting on them is the torque from a motor.

If anything it would accelerate them away from where the wire was attached to the motor? I don't think that is right. Anyhow giving a disk relativistic mass by giving it spin wouldn't change its translatory speed, or otherwise there would be some preferred frame to speed up or slow down against.

so you are saying that transferring spinning energy from one disk to the other would speed up one and slow down the other translationarily?