dijinj

thanks. I think I should at-least do one round of calculation to satisfy my quest

what is different in solution case, is the Coulomb forces are the obstacle. how to calculate energy balance in such cases? In water solution Na+ will be surrounded by polar H2O molecule in one way and OH- will be surrounded by polar H2O molecule by other way; all these are in equilibrium. To separate Na+ we should break this equilibrium and Coulomb forces between +ve and -ve ions will be the obstacle. can you give good references with worked out example to calculate energy balance of such system

John Cuthber can you please be more specific on subject, what I learned is ionization needs energy, so De-ionization releases energy. is this correct in Na+ s case?

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/37193-no-you-cant-make-sodium/ in the above discussion it says that Na could be deposited on electrode and immediately reacts with water to form NaOH. from my knowledge, dissolution of NaOH and reacting Na with H2O; both are exothermic. if my memory serves correctly the forming elements from its ions is also exothermic ( or produce electric potential). so how does this whole set of reactions are not favorable to produce H2 and OH in concern with energy balance. in first look it seems like a free energy device to produce hydrogen. please reply with supporting evidence like links, sci paper or references

Prime concern is to recycle NaOH, so if nacent Na reacts with H2O and form NaOH is no problem. But it should not burn the apparatus and burn H2(side product from that reaction) . Making H2 is most important

is there any way to separate "Na+" from NaOH and H2O solution, like electrolysis, electromagnetic or electrostatic etc. I think Coulomb forces between Na+ and OH- will be the bottleneck to separate them

will electrolysis donate an electron to Na+ and can Na be deposited on cathode. I know this require some energy but how to calculate it, can you suggest good references for calculating energy balance?

if both reactions are exothermic. then is this a free energy(not Gibbs free energy) method to split water. first reaction gives OH and second reaction gives H2 and NaOH is recycled and we will get heat energy as bonus. Can somebody give enthalpy of formation (del H f)to show that this reactions are truly exothermic or is there any catch like you cant separate Na+ and OH- from H2O (in the first reaction)

NaOH(s) + H2O(l) => Na+ + OH- + H2O + HEAT 2 Na(s) + 2 H2O(l) => 2 NaOH(aq) + H2(g) Is the second reaction exothermic? How to calculate energy balance of both reactions?

these are not just made up numbers these are from calculations i made earlier I am quoting both calculations for your reference these results are put in following calculations

We know the below relation between work and momentum p=(W/s)t There are 3 stages of momentum one is initial momentum (p1) which is zero. Second is just after initial path independent force (p2) and third is after path dependent force (p3). p1 - p2 - p3 = 0 if momentum is conserved Assume path independent force is applied in both stages then from the line integral and regular work example done above; we know that work is 4 and -4 for each case respectively. And s is 2 and assume time is equal to 1 then inserting values into (W/s)*t. we get 0 - 4/2 - (-4/2)=0-2+2=0 So momentum is conserved if both forces are path independent. Now take the case with one path independent and one path dependent. From the path integral example done above we know that work of path independent force is 4 and work of path dependent force through arc is -6.28. Inserting these values in equation, 0 - 4/2 - (-6.28/2) = 0 – 2 + 3.14 = 1.14 So momentum is not conserved. So there could be thrust.

if you agree with how laws of physics are connected and you can make use of them for good; then you must explain the following since s( displacement) does not change. and work is non conserved then momentum must be non-conserved. correct me if I am wrong with a good illustration if possible. don't just stick to conservation of momentum I know that law. The fundamental law to be breached if this concept has to work is: "center of of gravity of a system of objects will not change its initial velocity or position(if stationary) if external force is not applied" a part of conservation of momentum

The victory, 200 Miles s Daytona race, march 1970. There was no faster or better route to that goal than to put one of America's most illustrious racers on the motorcycle and have him ride it for 200 miles at top speed to win America's most prestigious motorcycle race. That's exactly what Honda did. In March of 1970, Dick Mann won the Daytona 200. http://www.daytona70.com/English/history.htm After a break of almost 12 years from racing, Honda rejoined the World Championships in the late 1970s and by 1983 they had changed their philosophy from using 4-stroke machinery to build the V3 500 2-stroke, known as the NS500, on which Freddie Spencer took the 500cc World title – his first championship win and the first for Honda since their return to Grand Prix(MotoGP) http://www.motogp.com/en/MotoGP+Basics/history 2006–2007The eighth generation RR was introduced in 2006 and offered incremental advancements over the earlier model with more power, better handling and less weight. Changes for 2006 included: New intake and exhaust porting (higher flow, reduced chamber volume) Higher compression ratio (from 11.9:1 to 12.2:1) Higher redline (from 11,650 rpm to 12,200 rpm)

I will illustrate an example of how physical laws are connected W=F.s Power is = W/t that is power= F.s/t you know, s/t=v so power is = F.v ( force X Velocity) in 1970s Honda used this principle to squeeze more power out of 'limited volume' racing engines. ie they increased rpm of engine there by increasing velocity of piston thus getting more power out of their engines( I agree there are some overheads). they slaughtered competition and came into lime light

Thanks. however. Line integral of Non conservative Vector field is the loop hole I am looking for. I think inclusion of friction in CFD software may be useful since CFD is primarily a vector calculus since in CFD Curl etc has to be calculated.

why cant you just tell me if any CAE application that uses Line integrals for calculating friction. if you dont know say no. what i will do with that software is all up to me

if inventors were not to breach physical laws or use clever use of those laws; there would only be just another different products. let us come to my second question. can you suggest a good dynamic simulation software that uses line integrals or vector calculus; so that I can test this device in that software for all possible permutations and combinations to get a positive result before start building a actual prototype. only after I made a successful prototype; I will post it in main forums of science forums.

what you are forgetting is stress is a force. A force can change momentum without violating any of the conservation laws In continuum mechanics, stress is a physical quantity that expresses the internal forces that neighbouring particles of a continuous material exert on each other. a stress(A Force) can reduce both balls momentum, since stress force act against velocity or direction of motion. so in action and reaction the stress or friction reduce both balls velocity. Action and reaction of an accelerating force will be both accelerating in opposite direction. action and reaction of a retarding force will be both retarding in opposite directions.

you were wrong; take a case first ball moving and a second stationary. if two ball's mass were equal moving ball stops after collision and stationary ball starts moving with same velocity of first ball. if second ball's mass is less than first ball. then both ball will move in first ball's direction. if first ball's mass is less than second ball. the second ball will move in first ball's direction but first ball will reflect back after collision.(that's why mass less photon reflects back from a surface with original magnitude of velocity) all this happens while conserving momentum if collision is elastic. in non elastic collision stress( a non conserving force) external to ball will change its momentum first ( reduce the momentum since stress force will act against velocity) and then if any momentum left that will be transferred and conserved between those. And kinetic energy lost will be converted to heat energy. I agree to the above

in the case of a straight line path dependence has no role in case of curved lines path dependence has a role that's why I am asking software that uses line integral

can somebody has access to dynamic simulation software like ADAMS do this simple simulation( with elastic and nonelastic collision) and post their results here . then why a car without dampers but only springs oscillate for more time. you are challenging basic theory of physics without any supporting evidence. viscosity, drag, non elastic stress and friction etc are non conservative ( path dependent) forces There is nothing wrong with my simulation it is correct take a simple experiment take a rubber ball(elastic) and a concrete ball(Nonelastic) . bounce it on a same floor from same height and see which ball bounces high and think why!

Its not an animation its a dynamic simulation. its non elastic collision( damping) is happening at red wall (not friction). there is no external force only same initial velocity for both blue balls. can you explain what happens in shock absorbers (dampers) in cars. If dampers conserve momentum the cars should oscillate indefinitely(perpetually); but that's not happening in cars, the oscillation is damped or suppressed sometime after hitting a bump.

I know conservation of momentum and external force is required to change velocity and thus momentum . but I think by using conservative and non conservative force I can breach it. here is an example where walls and balls has equal mass 1 and both ball has initial velocity 1 in +ve x direction no external force act on any thing. green walls and balls are perfectly elastic and red wall is damping or inelastic. the ball and wall in upper side loses velocity and thus momentum without external force. but bottom one does not loses velocity (non-elastic material stress is also a non-conservative). can you explain what happens here I small linear solutions are tried the y direction will cancel each other and you have left with x direction only as i shown in below calculation earlier the work will be -4 since we are integrating over +1 to -1

Okay Momentum is conserved. What about non-conservative force friction and its Path integral? does path integral not required in calculation. if yes can you suggest good simulation software that uses path integral for calculating friction. I only want to make ball at initial position and stationary with respect to space craft. space craft and ball could have some velocity with respect to earths reference frame. For KE and v^2 v.v is dot product. since cos(0) = 1 so only magnitude of v is required for calculation of KE. so is p.v dot product definition is given below

You can clearly see that path integral of work is arc length and force (a function, if force is not constant). Here pi is arc length of semicircle and 2 is force. Regular integral of work is length of chord and force. If length of straight section, where electromagnetic force is given; is 3.14 and force is 2; then work done in y direction is 6.18. Momentum transfer is in y direction only. Then in upper semicircular arc of radius 1 and arc length 3.14; constant friction force of 2 is given then work done is also 6.18. Since both x and y component of that tangential friction force contribute; there will be a momentum transfer in oblique direction. So this initial and final momentum transfer may not cancel each other. I would not say say my device will breach conservation of momentum since i don't have a working prototype. but either one of momentum or path dependence has to be extended. or there has to be a " beauty of an illustration" to show that both are true. I would show a experiment where KE and both Momentum are conserved. see this youtube video here there are two bars of mass 1, red bar has initial velocity 1 and blue bar is stationary no force act on both bars. after collision red bar has velocity 0.7..something and blue bar has velocity 0.2..something. both these velocity add up to 1 so linear momentum is conserved. but collision causes rotation of same speed and same direction to viewers about CG of both bars respectively. but you know that direction of angular momentum is perpendicular to plane of rotation. one of bars angular Momentum vector is pointing toward viewer and vice verse for other bar so angular momentum too conserved. KE lost in squaring the new velocity of both bar is used for generating angular momentum of both bars. so KE too is conserved. see the beauty of this Computer simulation all laws are not breached still one crazy output of rotation of same speed and same direction to viewers about CG of both bars respectively; this could be useful in some crazy devices. That's why I am asking for a dynamic simulation soft ware that uses line integral for calculation. help me in this regard