Enric

You can have a person as a neighbour, friend, etc who sees somenthing beyond all his life and he/she says nothing. Only he tells to his psychiatrist and this doctor tries to help him during years but finally send him to home with no solution or help. And you never know it. These cases are not mental diseases or fake.

If there's something beyond, it has all the eternity to be patient. And it sounds more credible because it's more credible. The most credible we can find. (And the cases of mediums or people who see somethings and they have no mental troubbles. Look in the psychiatrist forums a lot of cases who absolutely don't make laugh and send to home with no solution. And you can't suspect during all life who are. Or hypnotizers and their experiences about this subject).

We are only an effect of Chemistry, but we already "included" or "foreseen" in its laws since the beginning, when they were created. If they have also appeared alone and included us, they have a lot merit! Or not?

Thinking about the No Evidence of God or Something Beyond... It must be this way. It's vital. If somebody finds an evidence of something beyond, the big part of humanity would live paralyzed by a big paranoia. And another part would suicide to leave this world of pains... A reasonable doubt must exist. It's critical. It must be this way: doubt and exceptions. (exceptions not in the laws of the Universe, in order to handle it). Regards.

When you enter the dynamics of do good, at least you feel good. It's, at least, some kind of compensation that helps to continue doing good. When you enter the dynamics of do evil, finally, at long term maybe, you will have problems and penance. Because action-reaction, perhaps? Maybe it's only for this reason. I defend: could be in other way in other kind of Universe and with another kind of logic? I can imagine it. I.e., the pure chaos.

In this Universe and its logic, (by some reason has this logic and not another) if you eat too much sugar, you loose your teeth, if you invades and destroys Europe, you're destroyed too, if you burns a wood, the atmosphere is worse for you, if you mistreated somebody, it returns. And, at the contrary, if you make right things, it is usual to receive benefits. In another Universe with another logic, maybe could not be this way. It seems to have some kind of poetical justice or "punishment" included in a standar way inside this logic of this Universe that affects acts of the person or the people. And this make me suspect some kind of willing in the creation or apparation of the Universe and its logic, as our presence "included" or "foreseen" inside the Chemistry laws since the beginning. In another Universe, could be "sterile", with no life, no punishments and no benefits.

Why this curious and suspicious another feature of this Universe: that some kind of evil -against person, people, things...- by person or people, engenders some kind of penance, sooner or later? Could be in another way in a "sterile" and appeared alone Universe? Why is not in another way? I repeat: curious and suspicious.

Well, we have already here and now the three most important elements for this: the intelligence (growing), the willing, and the matter. It's not necessary to search in other theoric places. Could be worse.

Another possibility not so, so irrational (only a very little less) is science fiction, or absurd, or stupid... I don't know how to describe it... Perhaps, in a far future, and maybe not us, the intelligence in the Universe can alterate the past and create the Universe itself, in a Loop, or in a paradox. It exists because is created by itself, and it's created because exists and reach a degree of intelligence that can self-create. Another infinite loop. Well, it's completely science fiction, but it does not sound worse.

With all modesty. I think there's no rational answer for us. We have in front of us only something absurd and irrational. It's hard to live with this, but... After infinite questions, infinite doubts and answers. Maybe we have not enough brain (yet), perhaps the complete knowledge is forbidden for us. Or, more simply, the infinite essence and the infinite mechanism and processes of the Universe make impossible for our limited brains to understand all. Maybe we need an infinite brain to know everything about end and start of it.

Well, some people think that the Universe, and its enormous and mastodontic weight, appeared alone. And other people think that something it's responsible.

The only thing we can do are bets , or not?

Dear Memammal, Perhaps for some people the word is "appeared" alone, for others not "created" alone. Maybe is more adequate "appeared". Sometimes, I think about it with the word "created", and the rest, with the word "appeared". In fact, I don't know yet which to choose. The most important word is "absurd", next, "science". Regards.

I agree is a very interesting thread. And I agree with the 99% of thing saids. I only synthesize to the elemental things. This makes things very clear. And, I'm afraid that, synthesizing to the paroxysm, the apparition of this Universe can only be absurd in all ways. Maybe for this reason this "consciousness" searchs for God or something like this. And others search for explanations for all things inside this logic to arrive an explanation of all. We only can wait to the science in the future, if we arrive... But I'm afraid we will face always the wall of the absurd in front of us. For this reason my bets for not created alone are 50,01% - 49,99%

With risk of to be mundane again (sorry), I think that in order to survive in this Universe during billions of years, all life forms recognize (by nature selection) the Logic of this Universe that surrounds them. More or less. And, with the past of millions of years, we know that things usually are what they seem. In Logic. And the curiosities that I said before seem a lot (maybe not) what they seem. It seems a lot that the Universe is not created alone (if Universe were a big and heavy stone, how appears on a table? Appearing suddenly on the table or carried by something?) . It seems also that we was "included" in the chemistry in order to appear in it, inhabit it and handle it, with the correct Logic to make this possible (and cruel). Maybe not, and it has appeared alone and I'm a lot mundane, but I reivindicate 4000 milions of years of adaptation to this logic that surround us to recognize something.

Well. In the ancient Rome, with money, in summer, you can abandonate the heat of the big city and take with your family and your baggage your ox cart and to suffer the traffic jam in the exits of Rome (controlled by Centurions, because a lot of citizens do the same) and go to the towns of the coast. Where women are dressed with a heavy bikini and you can buy a souvenir (made with pottery) to show to your friends when you're back to the city at the end of hollydays. In the traffic jam, you can find maybe the man who are screaming and using the 'brakes', who mentioned before Phi for All. I mean this.

In technology details, perhaps not very much, But a Doctor, or a Psychologist or a Psichyatrist could open a medical office in the Rome of Nero or Trajano and could earn a lot of 'sestercios'. And the same for a Lawyer and the pickpockets. Roman Law forms the basis of our legal system. That's also very curious. Along centuries, similar crimes. Is it the same guilties doing the same thing by the same reason?

Sorry for the sentences and the contundence. Searching explanations before birth is always controversial... But the troubbles of today are the same, more or less, that the troubbles in the Roman Empire. Or not? Then, the same people as today always did the same thing by the same reason like today.

XY chromosome, would say a woman... And, in fact, thinking about it, in the Patriarchates the same people do the same thing by the same reason with stubborn insistence. Much, much more. More Patriarchate, more insistence. In a more rational and equal social organization, the stubborn and the violence would not exist with this insistence. The News of TV would not be a copy of the News of yesterday, and a copy of the News of 30 years before. "Y" chromosome: "Ynsistence" chromosome. It seems a fact in the nature. In an advanced and complicated social framework have secondary effects.

Yes. This is a planet of stubborns. Stubbornnes has to be a cause of disability. And to have a pension for it. The only case of true disability, in fact.

It's always the same people doing the same thing by the same reason. Or it's always the same person doing the same thing by the same reason. General meaning. Philosophy. Don't repeat if you can. Change your life!

I think I'll would understand, more or less, till certain degree perhaps, the origin of the Universe. Till now, we had understand the great part of that we know, and anticipate somethings that still we don't know with security, and our knowledge are growing and increasing. We only need time -a lot of time, maybe-. And that question, alone or not alone, could remains, more or less. Perhaps. Who knows. Let's try. We are in the good way. For this reason, I don't know if to believe or not to believe in something unknown. It's a sure 50%.

"Is it the Universe created alone? Yes or not? Only yes or not. And which answer is more absurd?" The answer can only be absurd. Very absurd. In case of Yes and in case of Not. That's the point for me. I don't know anything more. At least, at the end, I think that this statement has a practical application: I'll never going to do serious nonsenses. In a 50%, the Universe is not created alone. And this is a real 50%. Not a speculation. In case of doubt, ask yourselves the question: More absurd Yes or Not? If only works for this, works fine. Something useful.

(About the formula of the Universe, we would must use almost infinite number of infinite decimals. -and perphaps something else- What sort of horror of mathematical formula and finally logic would result? Since this, I think that we move in each moment in a range of parameters, but we change the subsequent logic and the subsequent range of parameters in the future.). Maybe this has no importance, but it's also curious. Things have their logic. Live matters can change their subsequent range of logic. I think the maths allow this. It's, for me, also another curious thing. It seems made with intention, like the rest of curiousities.