Hellbender

Okay. but I can't imagine tree-dwelling dragons in the early stages of terrestrial development, it would not be an absolute necessity, you are right, but they would be pointless wastes of energy if they were retained in their original form in later stages of terrestrial development. It would be better if they were vestigial and useless like an ostrich's wings (I think this is what you meant). sorry I didn't quote them, but believe me when I say I meant to If I said or implyed they needed to vanish, then I apologize. Ostrichs and other flightless birds retain useless (well, useless for flight anyways) wings. But you are right, vestigial wings for later redevelopment is feasible. Not perfectly adapted, as many species show evidence of jury-rigged systems and vestigial parts. I thought you meant that the wings would not atrophy, but be simply retained in the same, or similar form for some reason, but it seems that I either don't remember, or read it wrong, and I apologize. No argument here. And I am trying to help you envision this, for fun. But evolution is complicated as you know, and lots of things such as environmental conditions need to be taken into consideration. I wanted to discuss why the dragon would have to evolve to front limbs, and become a flyer again. I didn't say it was impossible, and I don't want to argue here, but I thought it would be fun to brainstorm this. The subtleties are important in actually envisioning such a thing. I am not, but have read books on this. it is very interesting to me.

I second that. Intelligence isn't based on heredity as much as it is intellectual stimulation during your crucial infant years (for instance, my parents read to me, taught me things outside of school, showed me interesting animals like salamanders, etc.), and ongoing education. I'll admit, our public education system here in the States is seriously flawed, like Azure said, it is based on funding. When I compare my college classes to my senior year high school ones, its ludicrous, even when I was going to a community college.

LOL!! Azure, you really crack me up sometimes. But seriosuly, since I started this thread, i should at least voice my opinions. I was a former fan of Jackson (in the 80's, don't worry), and a lot of my friends and family still are fans. I hear about how he is innocent from them all the time, and how he only had 2 plastic surgeries (snicker), and I am just jealous. The usual Jackson fan rot. I have always known what a strange man he started to become towards the end of the 1980's. Right now, this is probably his 4th accusation for molestation. He still has little boys over to his "neverland" (also a fictional place in the "Peter Pan" story, where children never grow up, think about that) ranch. What kind of freaking idiot would have children over to your house after 3 molestation charges?? I am not saying for sure he is guilty becasue I wasn't there (i'm glad I wasn't, ewww), and I don't know. But like Bettina, I have a hunch he is. Celebrity trials always turn into circuses and are rarely fair. Skipping court hearings, odd behavior, fillabustering by constantly going to the hospital and all the other wierdness Jackson exhibits certainly are not in his best interests. If he is found guilty, I say justice is served, but if he is not (which will probably happen) then that case will always be open to me.

What do you think? Is he guilty? Why do you think so?

hey that reminds me of maybe starting a Michael Jackson case thread!

I like it. It has a South American political rebel sound to it.

When I first joined, I found this site quite user-unfriendly, but I got used to it after a little while. I can't think of many suggestions, but anything could stand to undergo improvement, IMHO.

me neither, but what they hey.

thanks, Auburngirl, Lance and Ecoli for the links. I have a lot of free time at times, so I may try these out. But only if they are free.

The whole point of a general discussion forum is that you able to post about whatever topic you want, right?

Well said, pangloss.

Poor guy. Pretty sad, he seemed to be in a lot of pain too.

dolphin and shark tails are examples of convergent evolution or, analogies. In both cases, crescent shaped flippers are efficient for propulsion through the water, and were selected for this reason. These are different than the homologies shared by humans and other primates, the two being part of the same mammalian order. I know what you mean, reverse, but I was talking homology, and how that is applied with other features to strengthen the evidence of common ancestry. I don't know what you mean about spiders (or arachnids) and insects. they are both artropods, but are quite different from one another in many more ways than number of legs.

I wasn't nitpicking (not that you think I was, just suggesting what you might want to consider for this. But to answer your question, I would say that a pterosaur with extra set of limbs would likely evolve BACK into some large quadroped. If this were the case, the wings would have to be converted again into forelimbs, unless for some reason it would be advantageous for it to be terrestrial, but still retain those wings. And again, with flight, we are talking more than just the large wings needed to fly. Stuff like lightweight skeletons, aerodynamic shape, etc. would have to be readapted for a purely terrestrial lifestyle. Okay, but show how diminished wings would be an absolute necessity for the creature to maintain while being adapted to a terrestrial lifestyle.

the european myth of the "lindormen" kind of reflects this. Lindorms, or lindwurms, are said to be terrestrial giant serpents that matured on land, then when they got too big, adapted to a marine habitat and were said to be responsible for sea serpent sightings. Just a little aside i wanted to relate.

I figured it had to do with their cold-blooded status. Thanks.

Perfectly okay, no rush.

hey, there ya go.

these are free?

No: Not unless there are free sites for blogs, then maybe. But I am sure no one will really care what I think even if I did, so its pretty much moot.

If we are talking wings, for example, you would have to demonstrate how these intermediate forms of wings would be beneficial to the organism in each stage of their development. Good, this is a feature that evolved seperately in bats, birds and pterosaurs, all the known flying verebrates. Explain why it would be advantageous for a large reptile to fly. Of course, you would have to demonstrate how the development of rudimentary front limbs (I am thinking of the Alien queen's little chest arms here, at least in the proposed early stages of this trait) would be advantageous and what selective pressures would select the gene for rudimentary little arms. In other words, why would the said dragon need another set of limbs so much? In all the flying animals, the front limbs are useful only for flying, while many have evolved prehensile feet to hold objects (food, nesting materials) while flying. Prehensile front limbs simply aren't required, they would be nice, and dragons certainly look goofy without them, but evolution already does a fine job modifying existing traits so that producing whole new ones isn't necessary.

AFAIK, the red color is due the atmosphere, but I could be wrong. I don't see the picture above as anything but some rock or something.

Thanks. I have read lots of conjecture about mosasaurs being intermediates to some degree, but any new, up to date info in more then welcome.

Yes, that is what I have read. Once, when reading about Komodo Lizards somewhere, it said something about them being "almost warm-blooded". Some sources aren't always that reliable I guess. Oops then I retract what I put earler about it then. Since it seems like the wing membrane was only stretched skin with only the "pinky" finger for support along the top, this makes sense. Now this is something interesting I have never heard about before. I will have to read more about this. Postosuchous comes to mind here as well as other, little crurotarsians one wouldn't recognize as croc relatives. Pretty interesting stuff considering what was said before about cuban crocs. interesting. why is this, you think?

Thank you, Mokele. Its always best to hear it directly from someone like a herpetologist then to read it somewhere online, where you aren't even sure if it is up to date.