Ten oz

Republicans are much better at crying wolf than Democrats are. Republicans created outrage over Clintons emails and Benghazi at levels as great ifn ot greater than Democrats seem to be able to regarding legit matters like obstruction of justice and collusion. We can completely forget about Democrats being able to make noise regarding Trump's conflicts of interest and nepotism. It seems that Democrats don't feel any mountian if worth dying one and Republicans feel every mountian absolutely is.

One problem with all the accounts we have so far come from people who are either known liars or suspected Russian Intelligence personnel. Starting a year ago and ending just this week Trump, his staff, family, and supporters called the notion that such meetings took place insulting and denied them vehemently. So while the accounts show nothing useful was exchanged we don't actually know for sure. Just as we don't know if this was the only such meeting. I see no reason to error onthe side that Trump Jr and the Russian Attorney as being 100% honest.

No one runs a perfect campaign but not every candidate contends with foriegn adversarial attacks. We are living in a twilight zone where people are arguing that the biggest issue was Hillary Clinton herself. That if she had just been better the cheating and illegal activity wouldn't have mattered. Forget winning fair and fair Hilary Clinton failed by not being strong enough to beat a stacked deck; it's nuts!

I think far too much credit is given to Donald Trump regarding his success. We have seen it on this forum from a few different posters where despite knowing Trump is incompetent he is supported anyway from the position of us vs them. We all know many people who support Trump even while acknowledging his nurmerous faults. It is systematic of them and not proof of his genius. Trump is an effect and not a cause. The over crediting of Trump has accorded his whole life. I have seen it argued nurmerous times that while born wealthy it still took great business savvy to remain wealthy. Donald Trump's father at one point was one of the 10 wealthiest people in the country and was thee wealthiest real estate mogul in NYC. Donald Trump is wealthy but not moreso than his father was. While he has managed to remain wealthy he hasn't taken his inheritance to new levels. If simply not losing a fortune makes someone an intellegent at business what does that say about the many who start with nothing and become billionaires? Not saying Trump is an idiot at business but rather he simple receives more credit than he deserves. Society, in my opinion, does this too often. Everyone successful is deemed to have winning attributes which enable their success while everyone who fails is criticised as having various negative traits. The world simply isn't that linear. History is full of wildly intelligent women who failed to succeed because of sexism, brillant artists who died with little following only to be discovered later, and important scientists who were opressed by religion. Often how successful one is simply says more about society at large than it does the individual. Trump isn't fooling anyone. The posters in here like tar and Kiplngram who admit they voted for Trump are also admittedly aware that he is a liar. They have not bought into a delusion (at least not one created by or specific to Donald Trump).

While I agree with every word of your post I think it fails to reply in context to rangerx's last post. I believe, could be wrong, rangerx is pointing the OP's position has been treated with more respect than they are providing others and perhap it is all just a bit of partisan trolling.

Only when absolutely caught in the clear light of day has this administration and its surrogates ever conceded an inch or even bothered to address questions. So I think you are spot on.

First time I ever watched the old Chris Hansen show "to catch a predator" I felt it was entrapment. They were arresting people who hadn't committed a crime. Then after more thought it made sense to me. Grown adults who knowingly had solicited what they believed to be grade school kids for sex and then drove out to meet with them in hopes of engaging in molestation were in the act of attempting to commit a crime. Their failure to be success provided no cover.

1 - Isn't this a redundant charge considering bothsides of any debate frame their positions as superior? 2 - This is a science forum and not a "point of view" forum. Science does not require the caveat of good humor or an argeeable disposition. Science seeks to make things clear not fuzzy or gray. Why learn and know things when one can just feel things and ask others to respect that the same?

We know they believed they were meeting with people who represented the Russian Gov't and that Russia was interested in helping them. Does it matter what info actually changed hands? Also, Trump and his people have repeatedly denied such things ever happened at all. Only when caught red handed did Flynn fess up, did Sessions fess up, and etc. At that they downplay events while confessing despite months worth of denial and lies. It is safe to assume this lone meeting of Don Jr, Kushner, and Manafort wasn't the only contact. Just as it was safe to assume Flynns phone call wasn't the only contact or that Sessions meeting during the RNC wasn't the only meeting. We now have a clear pattern where several bouts of vehement denials have been proven to be lies. As for what Trump himselfs knows vs what his team knows, he refuses to say. Trump still refuses to say whether or not he accepts that Russia interfered in the election. Even as his Sec of Defense, U.N. Ambassador, Sec. of State, VP, and etc make public statement after public statement that it was absolutely Russia Trump continues hedge and play stupid. The man is the President of the United States of America for goodness sakes. Plausible deniability via omission really shouldn't apply; not when the actions of his people are public. He is either in charge and capable of managing his team or too incompetent and as such totally compromised. We know for 100% he knows now and what is he doing about it? Kushner is still in the WH and his wife just sat in for Trump at the G20 for meetings with world leaders. As for Don Jr. he is receiving tweets of support from POTUS. If somehow or someway Trump wasn't aware at the time his current actions show that he wouldn't have cared. He is implicit to his teams actions. Jeff Sessions was caught on tape lying to the Senate still is Trump's Attorney General. Kushner falsifying his clearance formhas been know for a couple month now and nothing has been done. It is absurd to offer Trump the alibi of not knowing things at the time when he does absolutely nothing in realtime when those things come to light.

It is only a crime if something valuable is exchanged? Many of undercover narcotics and prostitution police officers arrest people on solicitation alone. Terrorists have been arrested for planning to commit acts. Intent was there and that is what's necessary to prove a crime. As for whether or not Trump personally knew; it is his campaign, his staff, and his relatives. People he is still leaning on to handle matters for him now. Trump himself is on record saying he fired Comey to make the investigation go away. Back when Watergate went down Nixon legitimately knew nothing about it but was impeached for trying to make it go away once he learned. Additionally Nixon won the popular vote by 18 million in that Election as opposed to lost it by 3 million. So claims that the illegal behavior by the campaign made no difference were more clear.

Now that it is indisputable that the Trump campaign sought Russia's help to get illegally obtained material with the belief that Russia want to help Trump win can we all agree Trump has obstructed justice in the investigation into such matters? Part of the denial of Trump's obstruction of justice was based in the notion that there was no initial violation to obstruct justice with regards to. Seems Don Jr has confirm both the collusion and obstruction of justice simultaneously.

Jr is his own words admits to attending a meeting with Russian agent for the specific purpose of receiving help for his father. Kushner and Manafort were with him. Trump himself continued to use the hacked material, direct his supporters to the material, and "joke" about wishing Russia would hack do more hacking for months after being privately briefed that Russia was behind it and interfering with the election. Alone just based on those 2 things we know Trump's campaign solicted Russia for help and was implicit in distributing Russia's illegally obtained material. What people are really saying when that fain no evidence is that they simply do not care. Saying "no evidence" is equal to saying "so what" at this point.

Maybe, but is there any reason to assume it is? If it were I not sure it would matter unless there were a way for us to exist and interact beyond it. I also am not sure free will exists beyond our own conception of it or that it requires greater than noraml amounts of "brain-power" simulation or not.

"President Trump's eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., admitted Sunday to meeting last summer with a Russian attorney because she "might have information helpful to" his father's campaign. The meeting was first reported by the New York Times and occurred just weeks after Trump secured the GOP nomination. It was also attended by Trump's then-campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, who would later briefly serve as campaign manager, and Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who now serves as a White House senior adviser." http://www.npr.org/2017/07/09/536345533/trump-son-admits-to-meeting-russian-lawyer-with-offer-of-helpful-info-for-campai

No one believes the wall will get built. It is and was symbolic. Discussing it provides millions the platform to scratch the itch they have to demagogue immigrants. Trump's wall has already delivered on everything most of his supporters of it wanted. The bullying we see at school of minorities, the increased negative visceral we see posted on social media, Trump great wall has already given millions more than they ever hoped it would. Already been a huge, huge, huge win. I think those of us participating in this side discussion about disinformation and liars need to find a way to circle it back around to taxation. I don't want to hijack the thread. My initial point was that in a democracy where different views are represented within the govt money collect from taxes will inevitably end up going towards things many disapprove of. I don't want one dollar spent on private prisons yet billions are. I don't blame taxation I blame bad politics and bad voters.

I posted that machines do not and cannot. I mean that as a reference to the here and now. I am not implying they never will. The camparison made was a fly to laptop and not theoretical AI tech. I personnally do believe conscious machines will eventual exist.

Yep, not everything a person wants and every choice a person makes is reasonable.People often knowingly vote against the greater good if they think doing so may scratch some personal inch they have.

Yes and they do so sober and self aware. Not as confused victim of misinformation or lies.

I agree with th elast part of your post but not the highlighted portion. A fly is a product of natural biology. Every individual fly must survive independently and be successful enough to reproduce. A fly grows to be and lives 100% autonomously. They have been doing so for millions of generations. Your laptap is not autonomous and does nothing independently. Even machines we (humans) build to mimic autonomous behavior do not have the ability to grow, develop, adapt, change, and etc as a fly does. People absolutely project magical properties on to consciousness in my opinion. One error is separating the mind from the body. The two are one in the same in that both are required for awareness of any kind. As such an man made device, even one designed to be autonomous, cannot oversee their own physical changes, reproduction, and adaptation.

Exactly, I just don't understand the attitude that if Hillary had just wore different shades of lipstick or what that people would have voted for her. Additionally people with that attitude insist that the candidate with millions more votes was the one with a popularity problem. It makes no sense.

People not being aware of their options isn't what is happening. People willfully elect liars. We just saw the clearest example of it. People in this very forum argued that Trump was a liar and incompetent then went out and voted for him anyway. You cannot tell me they were simply victims of misinformation. They weren't. And it is hardly just those who voted for Trump. The same is true for all the people we see, using this forum as an example, who acknowledge climate change but then still support politicians who don't. It simply isn't true that liars and fakes get elected because people don't know better. People do know better and do it anyway. It is a regular part of life. Only is a perfect world amongst perfect people can we really blame lack of knowledge for people bad choices. It is like when people down play horrors of history by excusing peoples behavior by saying that is just how things were then. People attempt to imply people just didn't know slavery of bad or abusing women was bad. People knew.

Which is my point. The needed course correction here is with voters.

And what if you chose to do this over and over and over? At what point is it your own fault for continuing to chose me to represent you?

People keep saying this but I don't think it is true at all. Hillary Clinton received the second most votes for any Presidential candidate in history. Only Obama in 08' received more. For some perspective Hillary Clinton received nearly 7 million more votes in 16' than John Kerry and Al Gore did in 04' & 00'. Meanwhile Trump only received about 800k more than Bush did in 04' and just 2 million more than 00'. Hillary Clinton did not shrink the base or receive less votes than was expected. Hillary Clinton received 3 million more votes than Trump yet is called a "lousy campaingner" and Trump is celebrated as "clever" based on the outcome alone. It makes no sense to me because it is unprecedented in history what happened. In my opinion the failures were logistical on the ground level and not with Clintons "first grade teacher" look. Repblicans do a better job identifying pockets which will vote against them and making it inconvenient as possible for those people to vote. In many cases how easy it is to get registered and vote in more important than the pageantry. Groups that have to traverse greater distances and wait in longer lines tend to have lower turnout percentages regardless of the appeal of the candidates.