Ten oz

The water is muddy. No two people are the same. People have different degrees of everything from eyesight to bone density. The brain develops till adulthood. What we are taught, what we see, what we hear, the way we are taught, what we eat, and a million other things influences the way a person's brain develops. The physical way it develops. Not just memories but the actually physical size of different areas of the brains and the way the the neurons connect. ADHD is a disorder but one which wasn't determined to be one until a little over 30 yrs ago. How many other disorders exist, we find new ones all the time. It can be argued that everyone gots a little of something: narcissism, passive agression, paranoia, anxiety, dyslexia, low self esteem, perversion, kleptomania, agoraphobia, insomnia, etc, etc, etc, etc. There is no single standard we can look at and say it is the perfect example for how the brain should work. Depending on environment many things we might consider a disorder today might be critical to survival in another enviroment.

I am not a fan of the platitude that "both stripes" do X, Y, Z. Saying such always seems fair. It is a centrist position which seeks to treat all sides fairly which lends it credibility. Problem is that it has no levels of accuracy or degree. If there are 2 politicians and one of them has lied a handful of times to spare themselves or others embarrassment and the other lies virtually everytime they speak with the intention of completely misleading people the two politicians are not equal. Saying both are liars because both have lied might be true but fails to distinguish them and favors the bigger liar by making them no worse than their opponent when in fact they are. Yes, bothside deflect and attempt to focus attention else where but both do so to different degrees and to distract from very different things. I think it is counterproductive to say both stripes do it and move on. It provides whomever is doing it in real time cover.

So many unresolved issues: - Russian interference in the Election - Accusations of collusion with Russia - Tax Returns - Conflicts of Interests - Nepotism - Firing Yates - Firing Flynn - Sessions lying to the Senate - Pressuring Comey - Firing Comey - Giving classified info to Russia To date the White House has been successful in changing the narrative and keeping people focused on other things. The list of unresolved issues just keeps growing. Even if no wrong doing exists in any of the situations the Whites House's inability to even present a consistent response to them and Congress's refusal to acknowledge and look into them is extremely disheartening and creates a real crisis. While failure to honestly investigate Trump isn't proof that Trump is guilty it is proof that Congress is either unwilling or unable to do their constitutional duty.

@ dimreepr I think one of the challenges here is how intimately we experience whatever label we choose to assign the rolling monologue in our heads. We imagine it as being the epitome of who we are. Implying that other parts of our minds, which we don't perceive interactively, make decision for us feels foreign. As though it is being implied that we have no control or choice at all. That isn't the case of course. All of my brain is part of me. Regardless of where various thoughts and ideas arise it is still from within us. It is just hard to imagine it. Hard to feel intimate and connected with thoughts we aren't knowingly creating in real time. There is a clear bias, in my opinion, toward wanting to believe we consciously control who we are. That clearly isn't true though. At least not for everyone. Not for people with schizophrenia, ADHD, depression, addiction, and etc, etc, etc. Everyone isn't the same and the health of our bodies, nature of our upbringing, genetics, environment, and etc all play a role in shaping us and during the most important years of brain development we has no control over those shaping factors.

@ DrmDoc, as mentioned earlier I don't see it as binary. Unconscious translating sensors and conscious acting. I see consciousness as a whole being segmented. For the sake of this conversation we are saying unconscious and conscious. It is very complex. There are things I know, things I think I know but don't, things I want, things I feel, feelings I don't understand, things I have learned, things I have forgot, things I have misremembered, and on and on and on. Some of this One am consciously aware of. Some of it I am not. The nuances are different for everyone. Consider synesthetes. They can experience the world very differently. They can internalize numbers as colors and dates as imagined physical distances. There unconscious processes information differently and uses different pathways than is typical. Or consider children who grow up exposed to violence. Studies show that depending on the stage of brain development exposure to violence can alter grow of various parts of the brain and effect language, aggression, or have latent effects that take several years to surface. Conscious perspective simply having it limitations. I have been trying to pay better attention to the thoughts that pop into my head since creating this thread. Today I was walking to walk. Nice sunny morning. Half way to work it accorded to me that if I continued walking the route I was walking I would being staying in the sun and would start to sweat prior to arriving at work. Attach to this thought was an alternative route I should walk. With that information, I will start to sweat and an alternate route, I began to consciously think about. First I had to determine if the alternate route would provide shade. So I wondered what angle the sun was rising from in relationship to the alternate route. As I wondered where things were in space, without a conscious demand to do so, I looked up over my left shoulder directly at the point the sun traveling. At that moment I knew the alternate route was good and chose to walk it. Was it really a choice? Seems to me in retrospect it was a passive order. My unconscious decided to walk an alternative route to get out of the sun and presented it to my perceived conscious as a idea/choice. Then when I wasn't sure where the sun vs myself and the route were in space my unconscious turned my head to show me which prompted my decision. Mind you this all took a second. Choices/thoughts like this present themselves all day. Often I don't even notice. I am aware of the outcome but not involved in the thought or initiation of the action. In this case I think the only reason I noticed and momentarily was consciously involved is because I have been consciously trying to notice these things. @ tar, is fairness to the squirrels the feeder probably had a strong mouth watering odor of seeds.

@ Lord Antares, United States have poeople from many different backgrounds: Native, African, Indian, European, etc, etc. about 50 million people in Unite States have Africa heritage. Yet according to your charts United State is basically the same as most all of Western Europe. Within the United State our most developed cities are also amongst our most diverse. New York City, San Francisco, Chicago, Dallas, Miami, Boston, Los Angeles, Seattle, and etc have very large immigrant populations. Very diverse populations. Same is true throughout Western Europe. Places like Paris and London are more developed than areas which are less immigrants. IMO geopolitical factors are a larger component than genetics for why different parts of the world are more or less developed. People from every country in the world have proved they can thrive when given opportunities.

Implying that Hilter's eugenics campaign was a success and that there is a healthier population out there today as a result requires a citiation. "I don't recall, but you can check" really doesn't cut it. Hilter killed millions of Jewish people. He did not selectively breed them. He murdered them. Today Israel has the 8th highest life expectancy in the world. Higher than the scandinavian countries of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

They Republicans currently have good odds heading into the midterms of keeping both houses. Triple the democratic Senate seats up for election than Republican and House districts are so gerrymandering that regardless of the political enviroment the overwhhelming major of seats are safe. Impeaching Trump could change that.Less people vote in the midterms as is. If the GOP impeach Trump it is possible Trump's far right fringe base, the "build the wall" chanters & Tea Party birther types, might stay home. Bad as things seem to be going for Trump his base of supporters have not abondoned him. Even the few Trump supporters on this site still support him.They are too important to midterm election success for Republican House members to risk turning them away. Trump being impeached by his own party would be egg on the faces of his red hat wearing supporters and a block of them might just stay home on election next year.

Identifying and knowing doesn't require thought. I can identify thing without any thought. It is something that actually takes conscious attention being paid to even notice.I probably identified several thousand objects today with total indifference and no conscious effort. I see this as far more nuance than you do. You seem to be saying that everything I know must pass through on conscious for me to be aware of it and that simply isn't the way I experience the world. I do things, have thoughts, knowledge, and etc were only after the fact think back do I consciously know or understand what happened. I think everyone does. Consciousness simply isn't a requirement to experience reality. And by consciousness, in this context, I mean the perceived sense of thought or think we all have and not conciousness more broadly.

My conscious, unconscious, subconscious, etc is all in my brain. My brain is still 100% responsible. I fail to see how ones unconscious being in control shifts responsibility. Plus responsibility is merely a human concept. natural selection doesn't care about the concept of responsibility.

That can be known unconsciously. Identification doesn't require conscious thought in my opinion. When I see green lawn grass I don't consciously tell myself "oh, that is lawn grass". One can be aware of things without needing to think and rationalize. Conscious, unconscious, subconscious or what have you are all forms of conscioussness.

In the discussion I have been drawing a dichotomy between conscious and unconscious thought. It is difficult and has created confusion at times as everyone has slightly different understandings/definitions for each. For me Conscious thoughts are thoughts we are aware we are leading/having. Unconscious thoughts are those we are not aware we have or are happening. However ALL thought concious or unconscious is happening in ones mind. So whether a decisions are made unconsciously or consciously it is still us (me, myself, and I) making the decision. When I say choice is an illusion I only mean that as it applies to our conscious thoughts. Ultimately decisions do get made and they are ours. So free will isn't being challanged here in my opinion. People do make decisions. I am just asking if they make them consciously or unconsciously. I also see a seperation between consciousness in general and conscious thought. I can be aware without thinking about the thing which I am aware. An example would be sitting around watching a movie and spontaneously reaching down and scratching my leg. I am aware I scratched my leg(sort of) but don't think about it and am totally indifferent to it. I know it happened but no conscious thought is given to it. I don't think "oh, I just scratched". It is just known not thought about. Another example is navigate through ones home. Walking from the living room to the kitchen I pass numerous items. As I pass them I do not keep a running inventory going. I don't look at my couch and think "couch". I think (perceived couch thought) nothing. I know it is my couch, I know it is there and I walk around it but I do not think about it or the many other items at all. I can know things, be aware, with out having to think about and focus on things. Where as typing this post requires thought. So what I have been propsing is that our conscious minds ponder choices and ideas but that our unconscious is actually in control. Our conscious mind controls our personality and social interaction skills. Believe our conscious minds are the source of our intelligence and decision making is useful to our sense of identity. Do you believe all animals have an unconscious and conscious then? It seems as if you are saying that without conscious thought there can be to actions. A squirrel may desire an acorn unconsciously but it would require conscious thought for that squirrel to get an acorn.

@tar, you yourself mentioned complex solutions coming to you while on the pot. All problem solving doesn't require a rolling monologue going in ones head. Our unconscious problem solutions. When you are working on something and "in the zone" are you thinking in language or is information flowing in another manner words can't describe? I can beaware of what is known vs unknown, aware of my needs, understannd limitations, and etc without having to think (perceived conscious thought) about it. Standard structured education is done in language via our perceive conscious. We also learn from observation and experience. Everyone is different though. Everyone that takes the same biology class won't come away with the same knowledge. Even amongst those who are most sincere about their studies there will be differences. Despite what we are taught, despite what we tell ourselves, everyones mind will process information its own way. That information is processed unconsciously in a manner one is unaware (perceived consciously) of determines how that information gets processed. How we feel about the instructor, our overall ambitions, things our parents told us a children, and etc all play a role. Which is why so many different memorization tricks exist. Straight forward perceived conscious focus is often not adequate alone for learning. Additionally while in biology class we are learning many other things. We are learning the whole enviroment. Our minds unconsciously are forming opinions about ever single person in the room, making decisions about where the best place to sit is, and etc. So much of what we know was never taught to us, least not in a form we were consciously (perceived consciousness) aware of. Organizing thought into language is a skill. One that wouldn't help if stranded alone on a island but would be very useful if stranded on an island with other people. It has obvious advantages and is a skill I believe humans naturally selected for. However having the gift of gab doesn't make someone more intelligent. History is full of brillant people who contributed to our understanding of the world who were socially awkard and struggled to relate with others. One can be terrible at language and still very intelligent and vice versa. A person can be very intelligent and have no sense of humor, self image, style, or etc. I think our perceived conscious is oriented around social interaction. It contibutes to the collection of information, of course. I don't think it is the source of our intelligence though. The thought we perceive is just a trick. Years of naturally selecting humans we are more focused on their internal monolgues. We are a group species and within a group being able to joke, lie, build trust, intimidate, and etc others is more valuable that being able to calculate vectors or understand biology. Make a potential mate smile is more important to ones ability to reproduce than knowing what a zygote is. Our perceived conscious always us to do that. To thinks and reason in seemingly superfluas ways. Like the colorful feathers on exotic birds. The feathers don't help them fly or hunt. They are just their to impress each other.

I should have said "the illusion of a choice". I believe the decision has already been made. Our perceived conscious believes it has a choice, a say, when it doesn't.

'A constitutional crisis is a situation which a legal system's constitution or other basic principle of operation appears unable to resolve; it often results in a breakdown in the orderly operation of government. Often, generally speaking, a constitutional crisis is a situation in which separate factions within a government disagree about the extent to which each of these factions hold sovereignty. Most commonly, constitutional crises involve some degree of conflict between different branches of government (e.g., executive, legislature, and/or judiciary), or between different levels of government in a federal system (e.g., state and federal governments)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_crisis That is why I called it a constitional crisis and not a "bypass". Asking for due diligence does not disrepect our system. That was the point of my post.

If Trump has obstructed justice that is a crime. The process, our process we should respect, is one which has laws. It isn't a "bypass" to want our laws enforced. Winning an election doesn't entitle one to obstruct justice, demagogue judges (contempt of court), and totally ignore conflicts of interest. It is a constitutional crisis if we can't expect our elected officials to act as they are sworn to. Our process requires Congress to run real investigations into these matters. Our process does not demand the public just wait till there is another election for due diligence to occur.

No, the house and senate are controlled by his party because of gerrymandering and who hand control of redistricting in 2010.

No, not separate. Decisions are made unconsciously and presented to our conscious as choices and or suggestions. Our conscious then makes a decisions (one already determined by our unconscious). The feeling our perceived conscious made the choice or thought out the idea being important to our personality development. If we were aware that we were behaving in predictable ways it would hurt our sense of uniqueness and individuality that helps shape our identity. Every human imagines themselves to be very unique, an island to themselves, specific.Yet we are predictable. From who will see a specific movie opening weekend to how many people with drive on a specific highway over a holiday pollsters and staticians only need relatively small sample sizes to predict how large groups of people will behave. If everyone was legit making independent choices about things moment by moment prediction models would fail more often than they do. Many of the choices people believe themselves to be laboring over are already decided but allowing ones conscious to reason itself into that decision provides a sense of self and independence that is important to our personality. Overtime some people come to realizes that they have become their parents. Despite a lifetime of perceived independent choices that should've individually shaped their lives making them unique; they are basically their parents. There haven't actually fall far from the tree at all. Other people continually fall into the same situations over and over with realtionships, jobs, and etc. It is because we often don't understand what the real motivations are driving us to various conclusions. We accept that our perceived conscious is in control. I don't believe it is the same for everyone. Some people break out of cycles, some people fall very far from the tree. Our consciousness is capable of thought. It all isn't purely a charade. We are capable of supressing feelings and acting despite fear. Different people do it to different degrees. Either way though it directly impacts our personality and social behavior. Alone in the wilderness trying to survive how much I was like my father or howindependent my choices were would be irrelevant. As for anesthesia, it affects the whole brain. Both unconscious and perceived conscious is all inside the brain. The drugs affect the whole brain. That is why the have to monitor ones heart and breathing so closely because even those basic systems can stop.

I didn't call it gerrymandering. I just added to what iNow had posted. The system doesn't adequately to represent the will of voters for a variety of reasons. I understand the constitution was designed to protect the voices of smaller states but we have gotten to a point were those smaller states actually have disproportinate power and influence. Inthe Senate Democrats represent 35 million more constituents yet are the minority party. In my opinion that is evidence of a broken system. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tn9v6Jq-fd0uT7FkwD757LMghX5jYUwlaeSgZbPgRUg/edit#gid=0 All the various problems are allowed to exist because they favor the group whichis most aggressive and vocal.It is a matter of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. There is a group in this country whom consider themselves to be the truer, more rightful, more authentic American patriots. The discrepancies favor them so they are tolerated/encouraged. Solutions aren't complicated. The system is gamed and those who are gaming it simply aren't shy or passive about it.

The 48 members of the Democratic caucus in the Senate, in their most recent respective elections dating back to 2012, collectively earned 78.4 million votes on their way to victory. Republicans, by contrast, won just 54.8 million votes—even though there are 52 of them. In other words, Senate Democrats have gotten more than 23.5 million more votes than Republicans. In a head-to-head election, that would amount to a crushing 59-41 margin in percentage terms. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/5/1617584/-We-re-the-popular-party-Senate-Democrats-won-over-23-million-more-votes-than-Republicans

External forces matter a great deal too. Being well educated in Syria at the moment with U.S., Russian, Turkey, ISIS, Kurds, and etc blistering the landscape with atillery has it limits. Some population have been more greatly exploited than others. History matters. Rome wasn't built in a day. Asking why parts of Africa are so poverty stricten is a bit like asking why people in Africa haven't cleaned up the mess left by so many other nations around the world yet. Yes, the mess does need to be cleaned and ultimately no people have a greater stake in cleaning it that the African people, but things take time.

People also habor thoughts they are unaware of. Some people requiring a lifetime of therapy to reconcile them. I am not implying anything magical. Unconscious and conscious thought is all within ones mind. The times my unconscious processes information inaccurately is no worse than the times I consciously do so. It isn't as though I am saying the unconscious mind has special powers or contains more knowledge. That is not what I think. I am simple saying that the unconscious mind has access to all the logic, knowledge, and etc. It can process information too, equally. Consciousness is an extention of a specific time of thought and not the home of all thought. That specific thought primarily deals with social interacction. Intelligence has obvious survival advantages. So does having better eyesight, hearing, coordination, dexterity, and etc. Humans didn't exclusively breed intelligence. Natural selection is a roller coaster and not a straight line. Look at humans today. Which gives someone a better chance to reproduce; a great sense of humor or genius mathmatical ability, charm or a master craftsmanship skills, a hint of mystery or a science degree? I think, provided one has average intelligence social interaction skills are more critical to reproduction than the degree to which someone is skilled or above average in intelligence. Because of that one can't ignore the role having a good personality played in natural selection. I think that it is the major function of the voice in our heads, our perceieved consciousness. It provides us a looking glass outside feelings and logic. takes us beyond reasoning and allows us to do stupid things that illogically help us reproduce. A hilarious bartender with a great smile and good listening skills wouldn't be well served to survival in a wildnerness alone. Smiling wouldn't help catch food or make tools. Yet within a group of people that same person would thrive. The overall fate of the group may ultimately depend on the collective brain power of the group but provided they have the minimum brain power to survive the bartender's personality would serve them well. Animals don't smile, laugh, pretend to like things they don't and etc. To do things things requires a specific type of thought. You mentioned that because something is consciously realized that one can never know for sure if it was conscious or unconsciously produced. While true it is a bit like saying how does one know life isn't all just a dream. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think it can be applied to both of our theories equally. Some people are taller, some have better hearing, some have louder vioces, others have better memories. We are all not identical. Perhaps the relationship between unconcious and concious is different for everyone?

It only takes one to to be spot on to prove my unconscious has complex thought ability. I have had thousands in my life. Additionally trial and error is something that requires our perceived conscious as we are not consciously privy to any trial and error our unconscious mind engages in.

Trump gets away with everything because the House and Senate are controlled by his party.

Racist noun noun: racist; plural noun: racists 1. a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another. In the OP enthnic groups are referenced and the question is asked what the difference between race and ethnicity which means implies the OP is using them interchangeable. Saying one race is superior to another, by the very definition of the word, is racist. The OP does ask questions but also makes it clear East-Asia is their perceived superior group and Africans are their perceived most inferior. There is nothing racist about asking why is Africa so poverty stricken. Asking if the reason Africa is so poverty stricken is because Africans are inferior is.