Ten oz

In the discussion I have been drawing a dichotomy between conscious and unconscious thought. It is difficult and has created confusion at times as everyone has slightly different understandings/definitions for each. For me Conscious thoughts are thoughts we are aware we are leading/having. Unconscious thoughts are those we are not aware we have or are happening. However ALL thought concious or unconscious is happening in ones mind. So whether a decisions are made unconsciously or consciously it is still us (me, myself, and I) making the decision. When I say choice is an illusion I only mean that as it applies to our conscious thoughts. Ultimately decisions do get made and they are ours. So free will isn't being challanged here in my opinion. People do make decisions. I am just asking if they make them consciously or unconsciously. I also see a seperation between consciousness in general and conscious thought. I can be aware without thinking about the thing which I am aware. An example would be sitting around watching a movie and spontaneously reaching down and scratching my leg. I am aware I scratched my leg(sort of) but don't think about it and am totally indifferent to it. I know it happened but no conscious thought is given to it. I don't think "oh, I just scratched". It is just known not thought about. Another example is navigate through ones home. Walking from the living room to the kitchen I pass numerous items. As I pass them I do not keep a running inventory going. I don't look at my couch and think "couch". I think (perceived couch thought) nothing. I know it is my couch, I know it is there and I walk around it but I do not think about it or the many other items at all. I can know things, be aware, with out having to think about and focus on things. Where as typing this post requires thought. So what I have been propsing is that our conscious minds ponder choices and ideas but that our unconscious is actually in control. Our conscious mind controls our personality and social interaction skills. Believe our conscious minds are the source of our intelligence and decision making is useful to our sense of identity. Do you believe all animals have an unconscious and conscious then? It seems as if you are saying that without conscious thought there can be to actions. A squirrel may desire an acorn unconsciously but it would require conscious thought for that squirrel to get an acorn.

@tar, you yourself mentioned complex solutions coming to you while on the pot. All problem solving doesn't require a rolling monologue going in ones head. Our unconscious problem solutions. When you are working on something and "in the zone" are you thinking in language or is information flowing in another manner words can't describe? I can beaware of what is known vs unknown, aware of my needs, understannd limitations, and etc without having to think (perceived conscious thought) about it. Standard structured education is done in language via our perceive conscious. We also learn from observation and experience. Everyone is different though. Everyone that takes the same biology class won't come away with the same knowledge. Even amongst those who are most sincere about their studies there will be differences. Despite what we are taught, despite what we tell ourselves, everyones mind will process information its own way. That information is processed unconsciously in a manner one is unaware (perceived consciously) of determines how that information gets processed. How we feel about the instructor, our overall ambitions, things our parents told us a children, and etc all play a role. Which is why so many different memorization tricks exist. Straight forward perceived conscious focus is often not adequate alone for learning. Additionally while in biology class we are learning many other things. We are learning the whole enviroment. Our minds unconsciously are forming opinions about ever single person in the room, making decisions about where the best place to sit is, and etc. So much of what we know was never taught to us, least not in a form we were consciously (perceived consciousness) aware of. Organizing thought into language is a skill. One that wouldn't help if stranded alone on a island but would be very useful if stranded on an island with other people. It has obvious advantages and is a skill I believe humans naturally selected for. However having the gift of gab doesn't make someone more intelligent. History is full of brillant people who contributed to our understanding of the world who were socially awkard and struggled to relate with others. One can be terrible at language and still very intelligent and vice versa. A person can be very intelligent and have no sense of humor, self image, style, or etc. I think our perceived conscious is oriented around social interaction. It contibutes to the collection of information, of course. I don't think it is the source of our intelligence though. The thought we perceive is just a trick. Years of naturally selecting humans we are more focused on their internal monolgues. We are a group species and within a group being able to joke, lie, build trust, intimidate, and etc others is more valuable that being able to calculate vectors or understand biology. Make a potential mate smile is more important to ones ability to reproduce than knowing what a zygote is. Our perceived conscious always us to do that. To thinks and reason in seemingly superfluas ways. Like the colorful feathers on exotic birds. The feathers don't help them fly or hunt. They are just their to impress each other.

I should have said "the illusion of a choice". I believe the decision has already been made. Our perceived conscious believes it has a choice, a say, when it doesn't.

'A constitutional crisis is a situation which a legal system's constitution or other basic principle of operation appears unable to resolve; it often results in a breakdown in the orderly operation of government. Often, generally speaking, a constitutional crisis is a situation in which separate factions within a government disagree about the extent to which each of these factions hold sovereignty. Most commonly, constitutional crises involve some degree of conflict between different branches of government (e.g., executive, legislature, and/or judiciary), or between different levels of government in a federal system (e.g., state and federal governments)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_crisis That is why I called it a constitional crisis and not a "bypass". Asking for due diligence does not disrepect our system. That was the point of my post.

If Trump has obstructed justice that is a crime. The process, our process we should respect, is one which has laws. It isn't a "bypass" to want our laws enforced. Winning an election doesn't entitle one to obstruct justice, demagogue judges (contempt of court), and totally ignore conflicts of interest. It is a constitutional crisis if we can't expect our elected officials to act as they are sworn to. Our process requires Congress to run real investigations into these matters. Our process does not demand the public just wait till there is another election for due diligence to occur.

No, the house and senate are controlled by his party because of gerrymandering and who hand control of redistricting in 2010.

No, not separate. Decisions are made unconsciously and presented to our conscious as choices and or suggestions. Our conscious then makes a decisions (one already determined by our unconscious). The feeling our perceived conscious made the choice or thought out the idea being important to our personality development. If we were aware that we were behaving in predictable ways it would hurt our sense of uniqueness and individuality that helps shape our identity. Every human imagines themselves to be very unique, an island to themselves, specific.Yet we are predictable. From who will see a specific movie opening weekend to how many people with drive on a specific highway over a holiday pollsters and staticians only need relatively small sample sizes to predict how large groups of people will behave. If everyone was legit making independent choices about things moment by moment prediction models would fail more often than they do. Many of the choices people believe themselves to be laboring over are already decided but allowing ones conscious to reason itself into that decision provides a sense of self and independence that is important to our personality. Overtime some people come to realizes that they have become their parents. Despite a lifetime of perceived independent choices that should've individually shaped their lives making them unique; they are basically their parents. There haven't actually fall far from the tree at all. Other people continually fall into the same situations over and over with realtionships, jobs, and etc. It is because we often don't understand what the real motivations are driving us to various conclusions. We accept that our perceived conscious is in control. I don't believe it is the same for everyone. Some people break out of cycles, some people fall very far from the tree. Our consciousness is capable of thought. It all isn't purely a charade. We are capable of supressing feelings and acting despite fear. Different people do it to different degrees. Either way though it directly impacts our personality and social behavior. Alone in the wilderness trying to survive how much I was like my father or howindependent my choices were would be irrelevant. As for anesthesia, it affects the whole brain. Both unconscious and perceived conscious is all inside the brain. The drugs affect the whole brain. That is why the have to monitor ones heart and breathing so closely because even those basic systems can stop.

I didn't call it gerrymandering. I just added to what iNow had posted. The system doesn't adequately to represent the will of voters for a variety of reasons. I understand the constitution was designed to protect the voices of smaller states but we have gotten to a point were those smaller states actually have disproportinate power and influence. Inthe Senate Democrats represent 35 million more constituents yet are the minority party. In my opinion that is evidence of a broken system. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tn9v6Jq-fd0uT7FkwD757LMghX5jYUwlaeSgZbPgRUg/edit#gid=0 All the various problems are allowed to exist because they favor the group whichis most aggressive and vocal.It is a matter of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. There is a group in this country whom consider themselves to be the truer, more rightful, more authentic American patriots. The discrepancies favor them so they are tolerated/encouraged. Solutions aren't complicated. The system is gamed and those who are gaming it simply aren't shy or passive about it.

The 48 members of the Democratic caucus in the Senate, in their most recent respective elections dating back to 2012, collectively earned 78.4 million votes on their way to victory. Republicans, by contrast, won just 54.8 million votes—even though there are 52 of them. In other words, Senate Democrats have gotten more than 23.5 million more votes than Republicans. In a head-to-head election, that would amount to a crushing 59-41 margin in percentage terms. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/5/1617584/-We-re-the-popular-party-Senate-Democrats-won-over-23-million-more-votes-than-Republicans

External forces matter a great deal too. Being well educated in Syria at the moment with U.S., Russian, Turkey, ISIS, Kurds, and etc blistering the landscape with atillery has it limits. Some population have been more greatly exploited than others. History matters. Rome wasn't built in a day. Asking why parts of Africa are so poverty stricten is a bit like asking why people in Africa haven't cleaned up the mess left by so many other nations around the world yet. Yes, the mess does need to be cleaned and ultimately no people have a greater stake in cleaning it that the African people, but things take time.

People also habor thoughts they are unaware of. Some people requiring a lifetime of therapy to reconcile them. I am not implying anything magical. Unconscious and conscious thought is all within ones mind. The times my unconscious processes information inaccurately is no worse than the times I consciously do so. It isn't as though I am saying the unconscious mind has special powers or contains more knowledge. That is not what I think. I am simple saying that the unconscious mind has access to all the logic, knowledge, and etc. It can process information too, equally. Consciousness is an extention of a specific time of thought and not the home of all thought. That specific thought primarily deals with social interacction. Intelligence has obvious survival advantages. So does having better eyesight, hearing, coordination, dexterity, and etc. Humans didn't exclusively breed intelligence. Natural selection is a roller coaster and not a straight line. Look at humans today. Which gives someone a better chance to reproduce; a great sense of humor or genius mathmatical ability, charm or a master craftsmanship skills, a hint of mystery or a science degree? I think, provided one has average intelligence social interaction skills are more critical to reproduction than the degree to which someone is skilled or above average in intelligence. Because of that one can't ignore the role having a good personality played in natural selection. I think that it is the major function of the voice in our heads, our perceieved consciousness. It provides us a looking glass outside feelings and logic. takes us beyond reasoning and allows us to do stupid things that illogically help us reproduce. A hilarious bartender with a great smile and good listening skills wouldn't be well served to survival in a wildnerness alone. Smiling wouldn't help catch food or make tools. Yet within a group of people that same person would thrive. The overall fate of the group may ultimately depend on the collective brain power of the group but provided they have the minimum brain power to survive the bartender's personality would serve them well. Animals don't smile, laugh, pretend to like things they don't and etc. To do things things requires a specific type of thought. You mentioned that because something is consciously realized that one can never know for sure if it was conscious or unconsciously produced. While true it is a bit like saying how does one know life isn't all just a dream. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think it can be applied to both of our theories equally. Some people are taller, some have better hearing, some have louder vioces, others have better memories. We are all not identical. Perhaps the relationship between unconcious and concious is different for everyone?

It only takes one to to be spot on to prove my unconscious has complex thought ability. I have had thousands in my life. Additionally trial and error is something that requires our perceived conscious as we are not consciously privy to any trial and error our unconscious mind engages in.

Trump gets away with everything because the House and Senate are controlled by his party.

Racist noun noun: racist; plural noun: racists 1. a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another. In the OP enthnic groups are referenced and the question is asked what the difference between race and ethnicity which means implies the OP is using them interchangeable. Saying one race is superior to another, by the very definition of the word, is racist. The OP does ask questions but also makes it clear East-Asia is their perceived superior group and Africans are their perceived most inferior. There is nothing racist about asking why is Africa so poverty stricken. Asking if the reason Africa is so poverty stricken is because Africans are inferior is.

I disagree. As mentioned in previous posts I can recall countless times complex thoughts and solutions to problems have been realized instantaneously in my perceived consciousness. Not merely instinctive responses to stimuli. I believe our unconscious(processes/thoughs we are unaware of) is just as capable of reasoning and problem solving as our preceived conscious and isn't reliant on our perceived consciousness for information. I don't believe our perceived consciousness is responsible for relying information. There are many reaction to the world around us we have no conscious control over. I do not consciously control how I feel in response to something, what I am reminded of, and etc. I don't think our perceived conscious mind is an interactive link between external and internal stimuli. I think perceived conscious is something more superfical. I think it provides an evolutionary advantage regarding social interaction. It is a mechanism that allows for a split between who we are inside our minds and what we show the wrold.This exclusively only benefits social inaction. Rather than humans behaving and acting as they feel compelled we can lie, suppress anger, pretend to be happy, and etc. We have the conscious capacity to present ourselves to the word in anyway we choose regardless of how we feel or think. We can pretend to respect people we don't, pretend not to have favorites when we do, and extra. That has major social interaction advantages. It is also uniquely human. Other animals do not pretend to like foods they don't for example. I think our consciousness exists to control our personalities. I don't think our perceived consciousness does much else but it is probably important to our personalities that our perceived consciousness believes it is in control. Thus the illussion of choice. I think problem solution and reasoning can be and are often done unconsciously. Yes, things like language (spoken, written, math, music, etc) are consciously learned but humans were problem solving and tool making hundreds of thousands of years before languages existed. Launguage is a social interactive tool that allows humans to better combine efforts and pass information. Our perceived consciousness being a social interactive tool is why when focused on single tasks alone we are able to get "into the zone" and act without the need for perceived conscious thought. It is also why our minds race a mile a minute when put "on the spot" in public. Alone in a workshop fixing equipment my perceived consciousness day dreams and wonders off. In front of crowd, public speaking, my perceived conscious mind races with feverish focus. *Of course I could be 100% wrong. This is a philosophical discussion after all. I am not claiming I am right and you are wrong.

The OP isn't referencing "a particular person". The OP is referencing continents. Asking if people in Africa are inferior to people in East-Asia.

Many Republicans try to have it both ways with regards to women and pregnancy. They claim to care about famlly values and be the party that wants to protect children and against abortion on the grounds that it is murder. Then they also regularly demagogue pregnant women. They chastise women who get pregnent too young, poor, or out of marriage. They stereotype immigrants and minorities as having children just to receive benefits from the govt. The attitude seems to be children are a blessing but the women who have them are a curse. Considering that Republicans run every branch of the federal govt and the majority of states I think it is fair to place a lot of blame at their feet. They have push back against healthcare reform for a few decades now.

So with our perceived consciousness you don't think our unconscious is able to interact with the world?

I think the OP is racist. It is literally asking if specific groups of people are inferior and less intelligent than others. They are even tapping into the usual suspects of stereotypes. As with most racist theories it fails to look at people as individuals. There are countless examples of people from every corner of the global exhibiting supperior intelligence. Instead the OP attempts to just lump groups together which ignores that any individual human can be very intelligent or not. As for the testosterone thing the question, it isn't nearly specific enough. Levels change throughout everyones life. Levels even change throughout the day.

The OP for the thread. I don't disagree with that. Do you think I am implying otherwise? This seems to be another situation where we are posting past each other. I believe all, 100%, the totality, the sum, every, etc conscious action, thought, decision, choice, belief, idea, etc we have first exists unconsciously. I feel I have already made that clear in several previous posts going back to the OP. I am asking what pupose perceived awarenesss serves. What its relationship is. It doesn't seem to be a requirement as our unconscious seems fully capable. Separately I find your thought and language example a bit messy as not all thought is in the form of language. Sometimes I internalize lanuage when I think but not always. Something my thoughts are images and feelings without any associated language. Some thoughts are totally indescribable which is why we have the sayings like "words do it no justice", "words haven't even been invented yet", "I am at a loss for words",and etc. Thought can come in many different forms. Sometimes they require assembly and other times they are fully realized instantaneously. An author can have a thought which is realized in his or her mind in seconds yet takes a year to writer out into language.

I think that is a bit too binary. Conscious thought (thought I perceive or am aware of having) is not always present as we take action. I think we have all found ourselves doing things without making any conscious choices or decisions. Not only that but we have the ability to put ourselves into what can best be described as auto pilot mode. I can wake up, shower, make breakfast, brush my teeth, get dressed, and travel all the way to work without once taking my mental focus off some specific thing I am thinking about. Matter of fact I have actually arrived at work before surprised I was there already there and had to take a quick second to recall my travels. Meanwhile to get from home to work I had to make numerous decisions. I don't think we simply have unconscious processes that produce thought and thoughts. I envision what what you are describing as the our unconscious functioning like an isolation transformer. Suppressing the noisy signals from our unconscoius processes and producing a cleaner signal. What that makes sense and clearly there must be parts of our mind doing that I envision it as having additional steps. We have unconscious thought (thoughts we are not aware of) that move to our conscious. Our unconscious thought processes acting akin to a semi conductor. The output varies basedonthe inputs. It thinks and decides what to make of knowingly aware of. From there we consciously interact with the world. Sometimes the input and output through our unconscious it euqual, 100% fully realized. Other times it may merely but but a small fraction.

Genocide of native populations, worldwide history of slavery, holocaust, and most recently ethnic cleansing killing millions; racism has shaped history. Directly behind competition for resources racism is the next largest reason for war and opression throughout history.

@DrmDoc, I agree with that. Walk it back and it all comes from unconscious processes. However there are thoughts we perceive in real time as we think them. As stated in the title "illusion of choice". We imagine our thoughts are consciously produced. As you outlined the origin is not. There is a separation between what we perceive and what actually is. That dichotomy is what this thread is about. Am I consciously making choices or does my conscious merely realizes decisions that way? *additional info, I do not believe in a soul, spirits, or any type of extra sensory perception. I mean for all conscious, unconscious, subconscious, or etc I have referenced to be understand as a biological process of the brain.

What constitutes a bad decision? I provided examples of people in history who made the bad decision to kill an inordinate amount of people. Has Africa seen a disproportionate number of killers, rapists, and cannibals throughout history? Ultimately you are right that the thread is borderline. All individual humans more or less have the same mental capacities. Many circumstances like environment, natural resources, population, disease, natural disasters, and etc, etc play a factor to the overall health of any collect group overtime.

In my opinion this post is a bit ridiculous. While there is a case to be made that testosterone effects behavior this post does little to set that up.Testoterone obviously impacts male behavior. Roping genitalia sterotypes into the discussion is silly. Shall we research the size of Hilter's genitalia or perhaps see if we can find a historical account of Genghis Khan's? Or did the world domination and war horrors of men like Stalin and Mussolini not count as "bad decisions"? In the U.S. do you imagine that the average size of a Southern Plantation slaver owner's genetalia was larger than those of men in non slave states? The world is not static. At different times in history different parts of the world have experience good and bad times. Every region on earth has been the site of abuses and the site of discovery. No continent has been all good or all bad. No continent today exists in a world which has not been shaped by the past. The individual intelligence, endowments, and efforts of each individual person alive on earth today is not soley responsible for the circumstances of that individuals life unfortunately. I was born and raised in a California suburb. Life has honestly been easy. Not getting a date with some specific girl in High School or not having the view out a dorm window I wanted has been the primary hardships of my existence. Too easy, too self indulgent, too naive for me to sit and ponder the frailties of those born into a world so different. Genetalia size notwithstanding.