Ten oz

This thread isn't about totalitarian regimes. It is about the current climate in the U.S. and the way Politicians and media and fanning the flames. The OP outlined what this topic is about. Refer back to it if you are confused.

This can get worse or better. This thread isn't a philosophical one about global Politics throughout the 21 century. I have no idea what you were alluding to with your 10 of millions remark but I seriously doubt it is on topic. As for what changed 40yrs ago. For starters desegregation in the south. Wallace won the South as a 3rd party candidate in the election which followed and ran again in 72'. So 76' was the first election post desegregation with just Democrats and Republicans. Of course it goes deeper than that. Nixon's impeachment and RFK's assassination impacted both parties at the highest levels as well. If you go back and look at the policies Nixon and Eisenhower advicated for they both aligned more with Democrats today than Republicans. JFK would fall somewhere in the middle or perhaps lean towards the right. The parties have changed. They will continue to change. The people Trump attacks in the media and the people right wing media attack have become targets of assassination. Bombs have been mailed to them and white supremacists have stocked piled weapons and plotted attacks. That is not happening to people who are attacked from the left. Clearly there is something different about the message being sent and received on the right than there is on the left. Making this about polarization broadly doesn't address the violence. As bad as polarization might seem now just imagine if one of these psychos were successful. It is a terrifying thought.

For the sake of a U.S. Politic discussion left and right general refer to Democrats and Republicans, those who support, and their fringes. That is certainly how I think it is being used in this thread. The current state of our two parties with regards to positions held and audience who favors them has been in existence since the mid to late 70's. I don't see the benefit to this thread in debating the definitions of left and right as it has applied globally over the last hundred years.

This seems like it is laying the foundation for an epic goal post moving off topic line of discussion. So let just agree not to go there. This thread is about U.S. politics. Can we both agree that in the U.S. the left vs right paradigm as it currently exists has only been around for about 40yrs?

I am not sure what history you are referring to but it doesn't really matter. The current dangerous climate we are seeing in politics isn't coming from both sides. Hate groups and White Supremacist (KKK, Nazis, Nationalist militias, etc) don't support left wing politics. They support right wing politics. White supremacists aren't watching Rachael Maddow and Don Lemon. White Supremacists are following right wing politicians and pundits. It is those individuals who need to do a better job toning down the rhetoric. It seems clear to me Cesar Sayoc and Christopher Paul Hasson targets were inspired by right wing media and Trump.

If Bernie Sanders had been tweeting about Steve Scalise, going around giving interviews insulting Scalise, and so on I than an argument could be made Bernie Sanders shared some blame. Likewise for left leaning media. However that isn't what happened. There doesn't appear to be any indication the shooter was incited by Bernie Sanders or left leaning media. Steve Scalise was not a politician who was commonly referenced in the media or by national Democrats in general. As Referenced early Democratic Congresswomen Gabby Gifford was similarly shot yet that attack doesn't appear to have been incited by specific media outlets or politicians. Even when polarization was far less than it is today, when politicians practiced better decorum, and media was less overtly biased bad things happened. Crime is never zero. Craziness is never zero. There are always examples one can dig up of something bad happening. One bad thing isn't a trend. Both sides haven't had bombs sent to them in the mail. Trump has specifically singled out individual people like Maxine Waters and Elizabeth Warren who have since been targets in assassination attempts. You cannot provide a single example of that going the other way. No national figure in the Democratic party has singled out Republicans who were then targeted by left wing extremists for assassination. That has not happened. Law Enforcement officials have broken up plots by right wing extremist to assassinate Democrats and CNN employees. White Supremacist hate groups in the U.S. are at an all time high and rising, hate crimes are on the rise, but you blame left and right extremes equally? In addition to the national Domestic terrorism events the last few years have seen Right wing extremists attack Jewish people at synagogue, Black people at church, Hindu's at temple, etc, etc, etc. There are not comparable examples of this level of violence coming from left wing extremists. No examples you can so directly link directly to media headlines and toxic tweets by irresponsible pundits and politicians.

Segregation existed here in the U.S. for another 20yrs after the end of WW2. Is it really so hard to believe there were at least ten of thousands of bigoted individuals in the U.S. who embarrassed the anti-Semitic and pro-Aryan rhetoric?

The number of hate groups in the U.S. are up a third over the last 4yrs. The majority of hate groups are driven by White Supremacy. Hate crimes rose 17% in 2017 alone. There were just over 8,800 victims of hate crimes in 2017 alone, Link. These aren't frivolous crimes either. In 2017 among just Transgender alone there were 29 people murdered in 2017, Link. These numbers may actually be worse as there isn't a formal department in charge of tracking hate groups or hate related violence. Local Law Enforcement Departments are not required to track or report hate crimes. We have seen multiple individuals target elected officials and news organizations for Domestic Terrorist attacks. We have a very real and growing problem on our hands. Real lives are at risk. It is not an exaggeration to say people are actively trying to kill CNN employees. Numerous arrest has been made. It is not an exaggeration to say people are trying to assassinated Democratic Presidential candidates. Bombs have already been sent in the mail and stock piles of weapons with kill lists have already been found. There are leftist groups associated with violence like Antifa. However everyone without hesitation unequivocally rejects their criminal behavior and they haven't murdered anyone or been caught plotting to murder people. There is not a equivalent tit for tat going on with regards to the threat of Domestic Terror we are seeing. The threat is coming from right wing extremists and far as I can tell right wing media and conservative politicians are encouraging them. From Trump's tweet straight onto a white supremacist's kill list we are see radical domestic terrorist pull names straight from media headlines and target them for political assassination. It is real and it is terrifying.

Right, there is obviously rhetoric going around which is leading to an increase in hate groups and domestic terrorism. Democrats are literally being targeted for assassination. Those who support and listen to Booker, AOC, or any of the other Democrats most often complained about aren't trying to kill anyone.

You can express your opinion. I haven't said I feel otherwise. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Booker. I was critical of Booker in the Dem Primary thread. I am objecting to hyperbolic disagreement like claiming Booker advocated violence when didn't.

I think most people agree Trump's attacks on the media are wrong. The problem is not enough people are willing to acknowledge it unequivocally.

This! Decent people need to start standing up. By stand up I just mean point out to others when their language and rhetoric is crossing the line.

I am not against free press or against free speech. If every news program I disliked was pulled off the air tomorrow their audience would still be able to reach similar content online. I think the problem is that too many of us (average people) are apathetic to the rhetoric. We are allowing those who preach hate and speak lies to have louder voices. Polarized as the nation is I believe 70% of the population basically agrees on 95% of stuff. White Supremacists like the one arrested yesterday are members of a tiny minority. Such groups only have power when the majority fail to oppose them adequately.

They both also clearly stated during those same speeches to not break the law or do anything violent. We have been over this. My point was that the same Politicians you have attacked on this site are also having their lives threatened. Not empty threats either. These are serious threats. Some humble self reflection might be in order.

Gabby Gifford's (Democrat) was also shot but I didn't mention her because that wasn't associated with the serial cycle of attacks I am referring to. Steve Scalise wasn't being regularly targeted by Democrats and left leaning media. After the attacks everyone immediately rejected the violence hands down without caveats or delay. You cannot pull up a single post I ever made pre or post the shooting where I ever said a single bad word about Steve Scalise. I doubt you can find a single negative post anyone on this forum ever made about Steve Scalise. You and I were literally exchanging posts about Booker and Holder when the bombing story broke. You were misrepresenting them (Booker and Holder) as promoting violence at the same time Cesar Sayoc was trying to murder them. Fast forward a few months and AOC has gotten a lot of attention from you of late and now we see her name on a kill list.These individuals are being targeted by right wing extremist via media and by their advocates in office. I am not blame you for what happened. Rather I am trying to encourage you to open your eyes and see that some of the media diet your ingesting and the views being promoting are toxic. Booker, AOC, and etc are people who hold politic beliefs you possibly disagree with. They are not malevolent figures in anyway. They do not promote violence, hatered, racism, or etc. The bomber in FL could have been classified as a one off but now here we are with another person who was looking to murder many of the same people. By name both went after Maxine Waters, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, and etc.

This stuff has been exacerbated by Trump specifically and those who support him. The leaders in question have names. This climate isn't being stoked by all our leaders. This stuff needs to be addressed directly if it is ever to improve. AOC has been in office 6 weeks and she is already being targeted. I mention her because her name has already been inserted into numerous arguments on this forum. Some posters get hyperbolic about her. AOC is for free healthcare. So what. It certainly isn't a reason to murder her. It isn't a reason to carry on about and demagogue her endless. The amount of exaggeration and character assassination that goes on even at the lowest levels is disgusting. Harris, Booker, Waters, and so on have been repeatedly targeted. This is all very dangerous. Just 50yrs ago we had a wave of political Assassinations: MLK, Medgar Evans, RFK, freedom summer murders, and etc. We have been through this stuff before with Mccarthyism and then civil rights. It took people calling it out and standing up to it directly. Currently I think we (most people) are passively leaning on platitudes about partisanship hoping it just improves on its own. I don't think it can. This isn't liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republicans, or whatever. This is a dangerous ideology rooting itself in society. *I am not implying you specifically have stated otherwise or made contrary remarks.

Rand Paul's neighbor attacked him over domestic issues the two had with each other. It had nothing to do with politics or the media. Your examples are just whataboutism. People have tried and have be caught conspiracying to kill people at CNN and MSNBC well as Democrat Representatives. It is serious. There is no comparison going the other way. The President has repeated called those who have been targeted "enemy of the people". It has a corrosive effect and needs to stop before one of these lunatics are successful.

Cesar Sayoc targeted (mailing bombs) numerous potential Democratic candidates. Yesterday another person, Christopher Paul Hasson, was arrested for plotting to murder many potential Democratic candidates as well. Between Sayoc and Hasson the following Democratic candidates and potential candidates have been targeted: Booker, Harris, Biden, O'Rouke, Gilibrand, and Warren. Neither targeted Bernie Sanders. As previously discussed conservative media treats Bernie Sanders favorably. It has positioned him as a non-divisive figure. One can openly support Sanders without drawing ire. It is a very strange situation considering the right is hysterical about AOC who policy for policy supports all the same stuff as Bernie Sanders. It is like we are in the social of a large scale social media/political experiment. I hope it ends wells.

In October Cesar sayoc was arrested for sending explosives to Obama, Joe Biden, Clinton, Kamala Harris and Cory Booker, former Attorney General Eric Holder, actor Robert De Niro, John Brennan, James Clapper, billionaires George Soros and Tom Steyer, and Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif. Yesterday a Military Officer was arrested who was plotting to kill some of the same people, link below. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has only been in political office 6 weeks and already made the list of a right wing extremist who was plotting to murder people. This isn't standard political polarization. This isn't a typical both sides issue. We are in a very dangerous political environment. Considering the the repeated threats we are fortunate none of the individuals who've now been repeated targeted haven't been hurt. Is the a link behind the way conservative media covers AOC, Pelosi, Booker, Waters, and etc and these Domestic Terrorists? Does Conservative leaning media have a responsibility to change their tone and reporting related to those who are now being repeated for murder by Right Wing Extremist? Does the President?

It is suspicious timing to me coming just after Barr was confirmed, questions were raised about acting AG Whitaker lying to Congress, and Trump naming Rosenstein's replacement. Even if Mueller isn't finished and the report being headlined is just a preliminary summary I am sure Trump's team love to see what Mueller has so they can start preemptively attacking or defending people.

A new Attorney General William Barr was just confirmed. We all know the Mueller investigation was the reason the former Attorney General was fired. All the news reports I have seen state that Barr is preparing to receive Mueller's report. That reads different to me than Mueller is preparing to turn in a final report. This could be Barr passive aggressively forcing Mueller to provide him some type of report. Firing Mueller would cause numerous legal challenges a Congressional investigation. Receiving Mueller's report and then telling Mueller standby pending eternal review might be the loophole. Of course that is highly speculative on my part. It could very well be that Mueller is done.

Until Mueller's team announces it themselves I am skeptical. As a strategy to both misdirect the media and possibly pressure those involved in the investigation people associated with Trump have been making up timelines for the Mueller investigation since the beginning. It is difficult to know what to believe. Below are just couple examples and Trump's lawyers claiming to have information on when it would end.

I basically agree. We can look at it philosophically and speculate about God being a projection of our (human) mortality or what ever but at the end of the day I don't think it is that deep. People believe in God because they were exposed to the idea of God as children and it stuck. Its no more or less complicated. Arguments can be made that the consistency of cultures around the world having gods implies the idea of a God plays an important role in human psychology but I think that's just minutiae. Different cultures around the world have versions of Bigfoot (Yeti, Abominable Snowman, Sasquatch, Yowie, Orang Pendek, etc) too yet that doesn't mean as an idea Bigfoot serves some greater purpose. We humans believe things we're told. We especially believe things we are told by people we have strong emotional connections to. It isn't complicated.

While the internet is human's greatest tool for distributing information it also is our greatest tool for distributing falsehoods. Theories which rejected known information (anti science) very often masquerade or start off a scientific theories their originators insist are serious. Flat Earth, anti vaccination, Moon Landing hoax, and the Mandela Effect just to name a few are the sort of garbage masquerading as science Moderators here need to keep an eye for. The system here is not perfect but all things considered I think it is fair. In my experience provided a poster have a specific question they are inquiring about or a specific line of discussion thread's stay open. It is when thread stack falsehoods or only exist are preaching platforms (soapbox) for their originator that thread's typically get close. For example a thread specifically discussing the observable distance of the horizon is specific while a thread about the the horizon being a hoax because it looks different from a plane introduces layers of falsehoods and will most likely fail. If you are creating thread's which have been closed or are participating in thread's you enjoy which get closed I recommend thinking carefully about what specific bits can be discussed in isolation and starting a thread about those. Often people start a single thread to discuss an idea which should actually be a few different threads.

There is still an uncalled race from the November election, link.