Ten oz

@ Relative, I am not sure if I would consider your pyramid idea perpetual motion as it requires energy from the sun. I also don't think it would produces a sufficient amount of energy for many commercial or industrial applications. That said I do think it is a useful conversation to have. Perpetual motion or not there is surely millions of ways to production electricity that we humans have yet to figure. There are probably more effective ways of creating motion that electricity and combustion as well. Such things are always fun to speculate about.

Per the Monroe Doctrine, which for most purposes is still followed, any foriegn involvement anywhere in the Americas is regarded as an act of aggression toward the United States. The U.S. Navy and Coast Guard currently patrol the entirety of the Americas. We (USA) would never allow Russia, China, or anyone to establish bases or any foot hold in Mexico. Russia tried to make Cuba an partner in the 60's and not only did the U.S almost go to nuclear war over it but the U.S. continues to embargo Cuba to this day.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

Okay, role playing. If the above scenario went do and WW3 was imminent the I think the following would need to happen:1 - Unites States would need to annex Canada. Sorry Canadians. As the northern passage is becoming more open by the year northern Canada would be an incredibly strategic staging ground do to its proximity to China and Russia. Also by focusing battles to the north it keeps a lot of the fighting away from densely populated areas. 2 - launch shuttle missions into orbit and destory all non U.S. govt satellites. It will blind our enemies and damage their communication abilities. 3 - Organize areas in the United States (which now included Canada) where we allow defectors and refugees. Automatic citizenship and place to call home in Alaska for all Chinese and Russia soldiers willing to lay down arms.

As noted in the OP I once believed the same. However when I investigated I found that it was not so clear cut. I only found one Roman reference. Tacitus references the crucifixion of Christ in a collection of writings called the Annals. The reference refers to Christ as the founder of Christians. It is a brief mention without any details. Tacitus did not live during the same time period as Christ. Christians as a group were already part of Roman society when Tacitus was born. Without acknowledgement of Tacitus's source it is fair to believe he may have just been repeating Christian folklore considering that the text actually is recording Nero blaming the Christians for the 6 day fire in Rome. Outside of that there are no other non Christian documents that support the historicity of Jesus that I am aware of. "Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117) was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire. His writings cover the history of the Roman Empire from the death of Augustus in AD 14 to the death of emperor Domitian in AD 96. Tacitus' work called the Annals (written c. 116) is important to Christianity because it is considered by many Christians to confirm the historicity of Jesus. Book 15.44 mentions Christ as a person executed by Pontius Pilate during Tiberius' reign. However, as Tacitus does not disclose his source of knowledge and specific details are not given, the authority of Annals is controversial among Biblical scholars such as Bart Ehrman and Charles Guignebert." https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Tacitus_on_Christ.html Here is a full quote of the cite of our concern, from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD: "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind." http://www.british-israel.ca/tacitus.htm

^^Good post, I agree. It will be interesting to see if anyone tries to make a more definitive agrument one way or the other.

I don't think there is a third world war on the horizon. Global powers are more interconnected than they once were. China needs the United States as customers for their products and the United States needs China as a manufacturing partner. A war between the USA and China would collaspe boths economies. A war between the United States and Russia similarly seems unlikely. Russian is a major supplier of Oil and Gas to China and U.S. allies throughout Europe. The Economics impact of such a war would be too great for all parties.

I like your example. A major force in the universe is gravity. We know that gravity creates tides in our oceans, make our whole planet orbit the sun, but we do not have an efficient means of utilizing gravity in the production of electricity. Sure, hydroelectric uses gravity's effect on water but that is a single shot. Once the water is at a lower level it requires energy to move it back up to a higher level. No perpetual motion there. However if gravity could be manipulated, partially shielded so to vary its strength, in combination with magnetism a lot of very interesting things might become possible. something like a perpetual hydroelectric loop could be made. Gravity directs tank water down a tube through a turbine on one end then into a series of smaller tubing with no gravity where the water is directed back up to the tank where there is gravity. I have no idea how that would be accomplished though. All matter has gravity so perhaps it simple isn't possible to influence gravity's effect on mass within any giving area with mass. Just seems to me that if perpetual energy were to be achieved gravity would need to play a role.

Many accept as a matter of fact that Jesus, as described by Christianity, was a real person and it is only his divinity that is up for debate. I grew up believing as much. As an adult I realized that I have never read credible information that proved a historical Jesus. In discussions with people through the years I have found that challanging a real life historical Jesus quickly becomes battles where I am asked to prove he wasn't real person. Ultimately there seems to be a general lack of proof either way. So I ask the forum for thoughts. Is the Christian story of Jesus based on an actual living man named Jesus who live around 2,000 years ago? Here is what I find to be a compelling explanation for why a historical Jesus most likely did not exist. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc

@ tar, my comments about abuse against women statistics were meant only to illustrate that revenge and or justice is not acheived the majority of time. I was not trying to imply that the strong generally abuse the weak. There are millions upon millions of smart and capable people who do good things. With that said those who choose to do bad things get away with it at a higher rate than they not. While it may be possible that rather than 40 million men abusing women there are a few million abusing multiple women my point remains; the majority of victims never get justice. We (United States) do not have a few million men in prison for abusing women. We don't even have a single million in prison for that form of crime.That is not to say I agree. I wish all such criminals were brought to justice. I am just pointing out that they are not and most victims simply gather the peices and move on. Perhaps revenge is a delicious meal but it is one most people never get to eat. You are right that we all have made mistakes. If society held everyone accountable for everything we would all be in jail. We all have done one of the following: driven a little or a lot buzzed, been in a fight, tried an illicit drug, stolen, and etc. Most of us mature, become more sensible, and knock it off with out any negative impact. A small minority of us pay heavy prices for such behavior and its becomes a shackle around their necks for the rest of their lives. In some cases it is deserved while in others not so much. Justice in not balanced. Not when the last 3 presidents of the United States all admittedly dabbled with drugs in college and the united states has more inmates in prison for the drugs than any other country in the world. Is it only a crime if you are caught? Is it justice to make one person a felon for doing things we know others are or have done yet received no punishment for? You mentioned ISIS and what an excellent idea getting rid of them is. While I mostly agree I am conflicted some. The countries in the region we have as supporters like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, and etc all repress women, practice indentured servitude, and legally behead people. As that applies to this thread where is the justice for the millions and millions women and migrants living in the above listed countries that the United States is calling our friends? While revenge against ISIS seems well earned it doesn't actually resolve any of the real issues in the region or provide any true justice. It is merely akin to scratching an itch.

I meant that as a general statement and not an empirical one. Admittedly it was poorly made. Attempts the calculate NASA's value over the years using many different methods have been made and all reflect positive econimic gain. http://spinoff.nasa.gov/pdf/AIAA%202011%20Quantifying%20Spinoff%20Benefits.pdf How valuable are satellites? Would we have them without federal money invested in research and development? They allow for a great number of other industries to thrive. What about nuclear power? Without the physics developed looking at the stars coupled with federal dollars would we have nuclear power today in your opinion?

There is about 160 million women in the United States. One in five say they were and or attemptedly rape/molested while one in four say they have been victims of physical violence. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0 We would have at a prison population of 40 million if in all case justice was sought. Rather we have a prison population of just over 2 million and less than half are in prison for violent crimes. So the over wheeling majority of rapes and assaults against women go without any legal retribution. When put into perspective the "large number of men" you referrenced in actually a very small minority of men. I am not implying that women could've, should've, or would've retaliated. Rather I am pointing out the overwhelmingly they don't. Just as I reference abused children. Seldom does an abused child grow up and seek revenge against their parents. I am not making value judgements or implying which actions I believe should unfold. I am pointing out the actions that are most typical. Revenge or justice is not performed in the majority of this society. Whether it is women being assaulted, children being abused, or great historical tragedies like slavery or massacre of the natives the majority of the time there is no retaliation. Rather people move themselves to safer places emotionally and physically then move forward. The 2 million prison inmates we have in the United States does not come anywhere near the number of actually car thieves, shoplifters, rapists, child abusers, wife beaters, molestors, and etc we have. Our prison system functions to maintain order but I don't see how it effectively seeks justice. Cases like the many Catholic Priests who molest child for decades kids often end with people losing their jobs not necessarily going to jail. And those are cases where they where actually exposed as serial offenders. Jerry Sandusky was charged with 52 counts of molestation. He is in prison now but is put a 70yr old man in prison after decades of serial child molestation akin to an eye for an eye? IMO it serves to protect others moving forward more than it does avenge the past. The rich and powerful seldom go to jail in the united states. Perhaps that is what women are doing wrong in places like Saudia Arabia? Sarcasm aside, standing up to ones abuser generally only works if one is strong (physically, economically, politically) as their would be abuser. Just as blacks who refused to give their seats up on the bus often found themselves beaten and toss in jail (or do you think Rosa Parks was the first) during segregation I don't think violent revenge seeking by abused women would be an effective tactic is combating abuse. Time and education are far more effective in my opinion.

It creates more money than it cost. New technology create new markets. What dollar figure would you put on GPS, Satelite TV, home computers, cell phones, the Internet, and etc when calculating their potential value vs research and development costs? The costs are paid back 10 times over. The algorithms used to solve complex problems in space end up also solving problems on earth. Questions lead to answers. They are necessary. Learning that fire could keep humans warm made us ask more questions about what it could do for us. The answer to those question resulted in fire protecting us, feeding us, distilling our water, hardening our tools, etc, etc, etc. Never! Penicillin was discovered by mistake. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin The posibilities of exploration are limitless. There is no way to handicap the benifits of exploration the way one would the odds of a sporting match.

Control the weather as like a superhero style power? I am not sure I understand the question.

Evolution and Chistianity do not need to be reconciled. They are not competing ideas. Evolutionary science seeks to under processes while religion seeks to award credit and appreciation. For example; The Wright Brothers are generally credited with inventing flight. No amount of appreciation or praise of the Wright Brothers will provide insight as to how flight is accomplished. A person can learn how to fly without knowing anything about The Wright Brothers just as a historian could know all there is to know about The Wright Brothers yet not know how to fly. @ Ophiolite, I agree regarding the negatives.

I am not sure I understand what insight is being past here?

Growing up in foster care is better than being abused but this thread is about revenge and if or how revenge is justice. Foster care provides a safer home but not revenge, not justice.

I agree with that feeling. I too dont believe I would not tolerate such treatment. However the numbers imply otherwise. Abuse victim survive through therapy and the support of loved ones. Not through retribution. Revenge is a thing normally the powerful are in a position to get. The majority never see it. For example: Kids abused by their parents don't grow up, return home, and beat their parents. Rather they deal with the abuse, go up, and most of the time forgive their parents. The few kids abused so bad the parents are put in jail end up in foster care. Is growing up in foster care justice for abused children?

Interesting example. What do people who go through that do? "Nearly one in five women surveyed said they had been raped or had experienced an attempted rape at some point, and one in four reported having been beaten by an intimate partner. One in six women have been stalked, according to the report." http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0 Considering the staggering numbers it would seem that the majority find a way to pick up the pieces and move on with their lives. No justice so to speak is ever had. Otherwise there would be tens of millions of men in prison for rape and/or assualt.

@ Basic Biology, let me first say that I deplore what we humans are doing to this planet. We have over exploited the planet and a lot life is now suffering as a result of that. With that said what is done is done. Habitats have changed. Only life capable of thriving in the modified environments will survive. Natural selection doesn't care that humans are to blame. We can work to reduce our impact on environments but that is about it. Picking and choosing which species to save off the endangered list is not simple. Are mammals more important than plants or birds more important than fish? Everything in an ecosystem has value. There is a natural balance. I don't think we can replicate that balance by moving animals around. It would merely be a game of saving one species at the expense of some other species.

@ the OP, as the environment changes the best chance any species has for survival is adaptation. Our (humans) ability to impact that should be focused on disrupting the environment little as possible. We should not transplant animals into different ecosystems any more than we should be destroying ecosystems. Climate change is happening but what that means changes as humans change. We can not reverse the weather but we can stop burning down rainforests, putting insane amounts carbon in the air, and killing endangered animals simply because we can. Transplanting polar bears increases our role in the equation at a time when we need to be finding ways to reduce our role.

I understand your point but can't entirely agree. Simply moving on is how many societies have gotten beyond any number atrocities. There has never been any sort of punishment or retribution that comes anywhere near the level of the massacre of natives and aboriginal people's in the Americas. Black people have not avenged slavery. Following the end of segregation in the United States south in the 60's no one was punished. Mayors, Govenors, Police, Judges, and etc who employed and supported segregation were not forced out or put on jail. The nation simple moved forward. Same goes for the British in India. They left and that was that. India's first act of independence was not to wage war against England in an effort to seek revenge. Just as Israel has not waged war against Germany. Society seems to seek revenge when it is easy to do so. Like a cheap emotional thrill. When revenge is hard or the atrocities were committed by the majority of people societies tend to just forgive and forget. Acknowledge that something bad happened and move on. Europeans living in the Americas and Australia get to keep their blood soaked stolen land, German today is again one of the strongest and most influential in the world, and so on and so on. All we can do is look for ways to improve the future.

Can we start again? I apology if I have been unduly critical. I have been in many discussions about these type of issues over the years and have become fatigued. The result of that is impatiences. You have questions and I have been annoyed that you haven't or aren't researching the information yourself. However researching information doesn't necessarily provide context or perspective. So an honest question should be received as such and I haven't been doing that.

Thanks, I wasn't sure.

I am surprised there isn't a place here to talk sports. There are forums for religion, politics, speculations, general philosophy, and a lounge but no sports? Would it be oppropriate to start sports related discussions in the lounge?

@ Moontanman, As posted I do not believe the future should be used to avenge the past. I am a sports fan. In sports there is often talk of avenging a loss or getting revenge against a specific rival for something but ultimately the past is never altered and the present exists as it otherwise could've/would've anyways. If team "A" beats team "B" in a championship game and then the following year team "B" avenges the previous years loss and beats team "A" won't history still view both teams as champions? Team "B" can never erase their loss. Team "A" won that year and that is forever. Actions made today only effect today and perhaps the days after. The longer a person lugs around the past looking to avenge, revenge, make right, re-live, or otherwise retroactively influence the past the longer they aren't giving the here and now the attention it deserves. *****"deserves" be a very subjective word of course******