Ten oz

What are the pros & cons? I have my own thoughts but do not want to limit the direction of the conversation by including them in the OP.

I read no one's rebels because they are warm, safe, & fed to imply they rebel because they are in cold, in danger, and hunger which is what I stated with my with my Civil War question. You answered that question by saying the Confederates did indeed feel in dangered which I read as comformation of my understand of the initial point about why people rebel. How about we start again? Can you rephrase "no-one rebels because they are warm, safe, and well fed"? Because to my eye that is who typically does rebel. It is often people who already have but simply want to have more.

You said no one rebels because of X, then used part of X as a reason for the Civil War, then asked about how people might feel about X. My response was to say X isn't why people rebel or go to war.

So then safety as you are using it is a purely relative thing? A billion people in the world to live in poverty. Over 5 billion people if we correct for Western concepts. Those (poorest among us) aren't the people dropping bombs and rolling tanks into town squares. Far as I can tell it is seldom the vulnerable who are violent. As bodies wash up in the Mediterranean it would be grossly inaccurate to call those refugees rebels.

Were Southern Whites cold, in danger, and hunger in 1861?

If it could be implemented as designate and no bad faith actors found loop holes or work arounds to exploit, sure. A lot of system work on paper. "Everyone has a plan until they get hit" - Mike Tyson

I don't think there is a single answer. As Swansont pointed out drinking a cold beer on a hot day will help cool you down. However even on a hot day I drink my coffee hot out of daily ritual/habit. I suspect the room temp water thing is just your own habit. Ones body actually has to warm the water. There isn't any additional hydration benefit to drinking cold water. One hydrates more easily with room temp water.

2 contextual things I think you missed: - "Work hard" is relative to ones own abilities and efforts which is why included "and was honest". - "Work hard and play by the rules" is a well worn and tired Republican saying used to celebrate capitalism. My use of it was meant to be ironic which is why followed it by saying people lie, cheat, steal, and fight to lie cheat and steal some more. It is not the board majority of people I am referencing as liars and cheats. Rather it is just a small minority just as today only a small minority are billionaires. Look at the level of manipulation and control that small minority has though. Again, I believe any number of economic and governance systems could work. Communism could work, Socialism could work, a Monarchy could work, a Theocracy could work, and etc. What undermines all systems is the corruption and loathing towards each other. Reinventing the bucket won't fix a sinking ship. UBI won't make people happy. Countless studies have been done and there are many philosophical theories out there about. If you want to go in-depth about happiness we'll need to start a new thread most likely. What I think can be definitively stated is that there is no empirical link between income and happiness. No only that but corrosive behaviors which are associated with poor menatl health like addiction, sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment, and etc exist across all income levels imaginable. The OP is asking how we'd create Utopia. For me the answer is a behavioral one more so than a structural one.

@Endy0816 there are many expenses involved with using ones own vehicle that Uber and Lyft have been pushing off on their drivers. The issue has been in courts for a couple years now. Also the majority of drivers are earning less than minimum wage and walk away after 6 months. I am not saying I think the govt should crack down on Uber and Lyft. Rather I am just illustrating that they're not careers one can build a life and contribute to society with. The Package Delivery industry traditionally has been. People working for UPS, USPS, FedEx, and DHL have healthcare, 401Ks, above minimum wage salaries, and are able to buy homes in their communities, pay taxes, and etc. Moving Package delivery into the gig economy akin to Uber and Lyft is a bad idea. The work force would become transient, less professional, and underpaid.

Unsurprisingly Kim Jung-un is forging forward on his Nuclear program despite U.S.talks. Thank to a POTUS desperate for the appearance of success regarding the matter I doubt anything is done. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see tweets from either Kim Jung-un or Trump calling this "fake news".

I fundamentally disagree. Nearly every economic system would work seemlessly if people acted in good faith. In the U.S. if everyone worked hard, played by the rules, and was honest the system would be equitable and everyone would be cared for. Problem isn't the system. A hundred different potential systems could work. The problem is people. The problem is that no system has a society full of good faith actors. People lie, cheat, steal, and then fight each other so they can lie, cheat, and steal some more. UBI attempts to resolve a sinking ship by re-inventing the bucket. The problem isn't with the buckets though. Too bad envy isn't linear. "They steal our jobs" are just slogans that taps into the sphere. Seeing those one deems unworthy of happiness happy when they themselves are not happy leads to multiple levels of envy and anger. A million slogans can be created to replace "they steal our jobs". Seriously, most of the states which vote most heavily against immigrants aren't even ones which have immigrants. The angst is deeper. They'll create desperation to exploit. They won't just pack it in if none is natural flurishing (it is always flurishing). You think the opioid epidemic is something natural which is exploited or something created so it could be exploited?

I would vote for any politician that supports universal basic income. I wish such policies were advocated publicly. I would support those politicians in hopes in prosuit of UBI we at least get healthcare and fixes to Social Security. That said I do not believe UBI would work. It doesn't address the nature of certain terrible people. The Nazis chanting "Jews will not replace us" won't be satiated by being able to work harder to get more wealth. To that end what percentage of wealthy people do you think got there by "working harder"? UBI doesn't address any of that. There are people in this world wouldn't mind seeing all members of the LGBTQ community rounded up and killed. Such people would never just work harder to have more and ignore gay couples happily living their lives thanks in part to UBI. It isn't merely about competition. Feelings of hatred, envy, righteousness, superiority, and etc often lead to wanting to see others crushed. They don't merely want more money than there nemisis. They want their nemisis to be made to suffer. UBI totally ignores what is actually behind societal ills.

Humans are selfish and competitive by nature just as most predators are. Many of us have need others to lose so that we can revel is wining. Worse still is that for some the feeling can never be fully satiated. The challenge of creating equitable societies is seldom about the availability of resources or there distribution but rather is how we humans behave. How does an equitable society exist while under never ending assault from selfish, greedy, angry, often violent segments of the population who work tirelessly to undermine it? Even if it is only 1% that is enough to sow fear, distrust, discontent, and all the other things which plague societies. Obviously equitable societies can't cast out or kill agitators because that would mean they were no longer equitable. It is a bit of a catch 22 the way I see it. Refusal to stand strongly against a strongman empowers strongmen yet to stand strongly against them results in war where everyone basically becomes strongmen. As a kid I saw what I believe was a twilight zone episode, but could have been something else, where a scientist was wakened from some sort of cryo sleep into a Utopian future. The scientist had gone to sleep 50yrs earlier in hopes his cancer could be cured in the future. The Utopian future provided for everyone. No one was hunger, homeless, depressed, or etc. All was perfect. The Utopian govt had awoke the scientist because they needed his help to access an old weapons system he had help designed. A meteor was headed towards earth and the Utopian govt wanted to bow it up. The Scientist agreed to help and got the weapons system online for them and then he was immediately detained. Turns out there was not a meteorite. It was a U.S. military space shuttle carrying the U.S. President and numerous govt officials. The shuttle had fled earth during a third world war many years prior and was finally returning. The Utopian govt blow it up for fear the officials would come back is destroy their perfect society. They acknowledge it was genocide but insisted it was necessary genocide. The scientist rebuked them savages. Both the scientist and the Utopians were right.

Kennedy hired his brother, Nixon didn't release his taxes, and George W Bush's old man invested family money in military contractors who benefited from the Iraq war while his mom invested in Private prisons. All of this has been done before but never so in our faces by a single figure without repercussions.

It is bad but it also isn't new. Political corruption wasn't invented by Trump. He is just benefiting from his team being unwilling to take a loss to fix it.

One good thing which will come about because of Trump is Congress reaching across party lines and strengthening numerous laws surrounding the executive branch. Trump should be the last President to refuse to release his taxes, give family members security clearance level positions, refuse to move assets into trusts, attempt to establish back door communications circumventing the State Dept. and Congressional committees without being impeach for it, and etc, etc, etc. Everything with Trump is a gray area or loophole. Is the private twitter account he's still using as President a public record? That was the issue will the email server right, that using it for official government stuff made everything on it an public. Does that apply to twitter; can we read all the Direct messages and would it be a crime if he deleted them? A great many of new save guards will follow Trump.

Yep, neither Democrats or Republicans agree with the strategy yep Trump persists. It seems intentional to me. Like there is something in it for Trump personally and the fall out for U.S. businesses really doesn't matter.

It most situations I would agree however putting a business which pay decent mid income salaries to millions of people out of business in favor of a transient part time work force collecting a little extra money, but not a primary living wage, doesn't make sense. Between FedEx, UPS, DHL, and the Postal Service nearly 2 million people employed.This isn't a case we're the industry, package delivery, has become obsolete but rather a case we're a huge Corporation has found a cost saving work around. Of course it is cheaper to toss a few bucks at someone to deliver a few boxes outvof the back of their car between shift from their real job. Is that the sort of industry we want in society? Phi for All made a good point early about brick and mortar stores making larger more permanent investments in a community. Same applies to businesses like FedEx. Nothing against Uber and Lyft but I do not want everything being done by part time, untrained, non-professionals.

What is troublesome to me about this is that it seems deliberate. There is no reason for Trump to tweet out tariff threats and it is impossible his economic team isn't aware that it impacts the stock market. Trade negotiations have traditionally been handle very formally with dates pushed off several months for final decisions to avoid negatively impacting markets. There is intention here and it reeks of corruption. The days of pensions are gone for most. People's retirements are more and more reliant on the stock market. Major index being flat or negative for several months means that 401ks are losing money.

As iNow pointed out Utopia is relative. What things do you feel a Utopian society would require?

Customization will force correct I believe. As technology replaces more jobs people will need to find customized niches for employment. A kid born today will need to be far more educated than I needed to be. Quality paying jobs requiring no experience or previous education are disappearing faster than glaciers. Things like 3D printing, self sufficient structures, A.I., and etc will demand more skill. The days where a company could just build 5,000 cookie cutter homes which are all identical out in some suburb are ending. Change is always hard. There are always growing pains. Ultimately the youth today have no choice but to become smart.

A yet to be discussed in depth business Amazon may soon be putting out of business are Delivery companies; From what I have read Amazon plans to do this akin to Uber. Anyone with a vehicle interested in making deliveries will be able to do it. I see this as more unfortunately than the loss of retail. Most retail jobs pay near the bottom of local averages. FedEx, UPS, the Postal Service, and etc are decent jobs millions make permanent careers of. I would actually be interested in seeing govts move to protect this industry. In the UK taxi drivers must pass a more rigorous test than merely just have a license and they drive vehicles actually designed to transport passengers. Such doesn't apply to Uber which is why in the UK groups like Transport for London (TFL) have being lobby so hard against Uber. Quality taxi service jobs will be replaced by a part time transient fleet using common vehicles. Perhaps govt should pass standards for what a package delivery service must be (insurance, training, equipment, security, etc)? On the other hand in the U.S. politicians manipulated policies at the U.S. Postal Service to intentionally undermine it in favor of enabling growth in the private sector among FedEx and UPS. So I suppose it is only fair those companies now succumb to that same market places forces they themselves championed for decades.

+1, glad you joined. This is quite the presumptuous initial post. I agree. However I think in society at large there is a large group on individuals who have rediscovered the proverb "squeaky wheel get the grease" and are using it as a life hack. Their arguments are often times more about not being silenced than whether or not they are right. Which is where the charge of being dismissed out of had comes into play. It muddies the waters. It is less about saying "I'm right" and more about saying "you are wrong too".

I think the problem is that often people do not realize their new and unique idea is actually old and disproved a hundred times over. Often ideas recycle under different names or just aren't discovered by people till certain times in their lives. When a person, often a student or retiree(spare time), comes across them for the first time they seem cool. For example Creationism became Intelligent Design and now seems to becoming a Science Fiction-esque concept the the universe itself is god. The first time one learns about Fibonacci numbers it can seem as it there is more going on, intelligence. It is natural to mistake ones own newness to an idea with actual new ideas. Pulling up old threads addressing the exact same issue helps provide context sometimes. This analogy doesn't work in my opinion because one can actually build a structure with Iron pipes. Not only that but all the obvious problems with doing so can be overcome with the proper coatings, sleeves, insulation, etc. The reason it isn't done is because it simply isn't a efficient way (time or money) to do it.