Robittybob1

Show me some evidence, and we'll see.

That's all news to me. I think you need to come up with some proof of your wild and objectionable claims. I think you are all wind, no action.

A highly contrived trick could be set up as you say but it would have required massive preparation.

Please don't make it too personal. For I haven't said HOW I thought the feeding the 5000 happens. I'd like to see you feed 5000 men plus other women and children a total of 12,000 in all. have a go please show me my gullibility.

I'd say you have too much reliance on trickery. Me gullible? Don't think so. If you think you can do that with a false bottom basket you'd better perfect it and get on TV Come and see "The Famous Acme!" Roll up Roll up.

5000 rabbits from a false bottomed basket and then when you put the scraps back into the baskets it fills many more baskets! That isn't the false bottomed basket trick. Fail, your magic fails.

That made me laugh. Gosh at least you have an imaginative mind. The whole thing stage managed, with fake blood and retractable spears! Did they use rubber nails or real iron?

I nearly said 'yes" but really it is "No" the Earth spins 29 times as fast. The Moon is still orbiting the Earth slowly (about 29 days) All my figures are rough estimates, precise details are available. I think the speed that the laser and the receiver is moving transversely to the reflector is much more important than the motion of the Moon. but I stand to be corrected. Is the gun and receiver separated by a kilometer or so?

It is 1 second there and 1 second back (total time approx 2.5 seconds). The Earth and the Moon are rotating around in the same direction with the same side always facing the Earth. So the amount of movement is still little enough for the reflection to work.

A Roman soldier that is wimpy? One that is corruptible. They would be under the sentence of death for corruption and treachery. That doesn't sound likely. So how does he escape death, in reality now please? Are you Muslim? Do you think they slipped someone else in his place? Why do you say he didn't die? So you seem to accept he was seen alive afterward, so is that why you say he didn't die?

Crucifixion is designed to kill you, and to make sure he was dead and not just faking it, they stuck a spear up into his side. Through the liver up into his heart and lungs. Where would the spear go? They aren't just for pricking the skin. 99.999999% of us would ultimately need an ossuary if it was any of us going to Golgotha that day. Bit like the people who have their ready made coffin as part of their home furnishings. http://incrediblethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/coffin-couch.jpg [Note: I'm setting the scene so you can make your fortune from the faked Jesus Ossuary that you are going to set up. You still need to find the Aramaic version of the text that you will chisel into the stone at some stage. You had better get it right!]

But he did die. It is only after being dead for about a year that they begin to use the ossuary. You wouldn't fit in the ossuary straight away. I'd like to see a picture of how an ossuary was packed for it would need to have a certain volume to take the dismembered skeleton. So having his ossuary ready was a back-up if the myth didn't work, for it was the ultimate party trick/street magic to cheat decomposition. I sense Jesus wasn't 100% sure the whole thing was going to work out.

So it was a severe local flood, that had no effect on ocean levels. Well that could happen. Was that thick sedimentary layer carbon dated to the last 6,000 years?

It is all guessing isn't it? Any flood in the Mediterranean region would overflow the Suez region and out through Gibraltar and all drain away. That doesn't make sense either. But I do know there are valleys in North Africa where there are whale skeletons found in the middle of the sahara so I could imagine they tried to explain that by a big flood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_Al-Hitan could be the place.

I wonder if Jesus combined the mythological history of the Jews completely and made the myth become a reality. Even the thought that mystics (Druids/Wisemen) from far off countries traveled to Jerusalem enquiring of Herod as to the birth of the new king, makes it mysterious how the myth transcended multiple cultures and religions and supposed associated with a astronomical event as well. OK I understand none of you believe any of that, but they didn't rush off to Egypt for nothing. The whole event changed world history, and yet it wasn't recorded in non-Christian literature. Even though in 1999 I did find an non-Christian reference to an astronomical event which seemed to parallel the "Star of Bethlehem", yet in subsequent internet searches I have been unable to find it, but I recall the document was "Roman" and called "Celestial Torch ???" something like that. Here is a hint "P. J. BICKNELL, The Celestial Torch of 17 B. C., (123-128)." http://pages.stolaf.edu/ancienthistorybulletin/table-of-contents/ In my history study I had pinpointed Jesus' birthdate to 17 BC so it seemed to correspond. I actually read the text so whether it was in book form I can't recall.

I must admit I had forgotten how the thread started, so I rechecked it, and find the OP has not come back on to discuss. To me the post which defined the thread was http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/86514-non-christian-documents-about-the-existence-of-jesus-christ/#entry837342 so it became a challenge to find a reference that was much closer to the time of Jesus not a century or two later. I could be an addict to myth. I'll look up Joseph Campbell on YT and see if there is any discussion there. (PS it is there thanks. What a complex being of mythological knowledge!)

"Acme is OK" remember, so don't feel bad. If you didn't call me a "true believer" but just made a comparison, that's fine. I tend to disagree with your premise, for there could have been recorded in some annal a real negative comment about Jesus. e.g. .... "and Herod Antipas decreed if anyone is found to be harboring Jesus of Nazareth they will be put to death." Obvious that would not be a Christian document but it mentions Jesus of Nazareth.

What would you write on Jesus of Nazareth's ossuary? For the ultimate prize! "Jesus Christ - This ossuary is brand new. Never been used" Thanks - I've never been called that before. Usually they call me a heretic.

You need non-Christian documentation to propose an hypothesis like that.

I think he means that if the waters were so high to cover the mountains the oceans would have to mix with the flood water over the land so the whole becomes salty. So not fresh water fish could survive, or they had to re-evolve post flood.

As you finally conclude: Add to that "Again, not much is left of the wonder stories in the bible. But what is left is that Jesus existed, that he was baptised by John the Baptist, that he was an apocalyptic preacher, and that he was crucified by Pilate around 30 CE. He had at least one brother, James the Just, same father but by a different mother." Was Joseph that old he never got to consummate the marriage? That is one way she could remain "virginal" The ossuary is authentic till proven otherwise. Now honestly can you tell what symbols actually spell out those words? " "Yehosef bar Aglon" You need "son of Joseph" but you don't need "Joseph son of" so were you able to split up the letters in the right places? Have fun! One mistake and the ossuary is ruined and so is your reputation! One clue is that they spell and read from the right to the left and they didn't use vowels. So there are 9 or 12 non vowels in the English translations how many symbols in the Aramaic? Do you include the small symbols at the start and finish? If "bar" is equivalent to "the son of" only 2 symbols might spell out those words. My analysis so far: The words Joseph seem to be spelt differently in the two versions , they use 2 symbols for "the son of".

If it isn't in the Christian Bible does that make it non-Christian? Christians might think so. How did you define non-Christian? I am arguing the James Ossuary as a non-Christian document. (document written on stone!). Defining James' "brother" relationship to Jesus.

I did find the bit I was trying to read about Joseph's sons being present at Bethlehem at the birth of Jesus. The Protoevangelium of James http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm So supposedly he had 4 sons and 2 daughters by his first wife. Had the younger ones been left behind? Who knows but it wasn't a problem in the very earliest stages of Christianity to think of Joseph having sons and daughters prior to them having Jesus.

It is hardly non-Christian. Why would you ask a question like that? What I was trying to do was to show the old history behind the story of James, son of Joseph, the brother of Jesus. The very person who seems to say the ossuary is a forgery is totally confused as to who James was. So I have my doubts about his ability to critically analyse whether the ossuary is a fake or not. I might have forgotten which text it was but there is one old Christian writing where the sons of Joseph go with Mary and Joseph for the taxation census. http://www.gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew definitely say Joseph has children prior to marrying Mary. But that still isn't the text I wanted to quote. (Memory of things I read 23 years ago ?? Sorry.) There seems this other apocryphal text that shows the general picture: http://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha-joseph-the-carpenter/ the history of joseph the carpenter

And I'll pray to God that you remain one. The whole James Jesus issue is very confusing really. For the story goes that James was older than Jesus, so I have accepted he was Joseph's son from a previous marriage, making James and Jesus have the same father, Joseph, but different mothers. Ok but Joseph is this carpenter, so how does James, his son, become the head of this Jewish sect, such that he isn't a follower of Jesus, but is still called the Righteous One? (He was known as "James the Just") So if they were brothers we could imagine Jesus having contact with his elder brother and becomes interested in issues of state and religion through James. If Jesus for some reason was the heir to the throne of King David through his father, it would seem James would be more so, being older. (Maybe it didn't work like that in their culture, not like the British royal family today.) Prof. Robert Eisenman seems to emphasise the importance of "discovering James to find Jesus", but when I listen to him he is totally confused by the whole story. "The James Ossuary - Prof. Robert Eisenman`s original interview with Simcha Jacobivici" - You just have to listen to that interview to know he is totally confused.