Robittybob1

When did hominids first discover fire? Would fire still seem magical 5,000 - 12,000 years ago? I tend to think not but let's see what archeologists tell us. What are the views of the forum?

How do you imagine the research would go? Would they just try out different rocks and see if it was possible to extract some metal? It seems that the step up between copper and iron is a huge step I wonder what made the early humans metallurgists try this?

I don't think there was any insulation in the flue, insulation just lining the firebox only. In my case I insulated the outside of the flue. The flue diameter could end up being a more important parameter. They say hot air rises so how would you make it rise faster and with less resistance? I wonder if you kept the heated air above the flue, then the air column above the fire would be lighter than the cold air pushing the air through the fire. Could this difference in mass generate a pressure differential greater than the effects of the bellows? From what I've seen it would be more than possible. It would be a matter of learning which parts one would want the air to flow through. In a blast furnace is the air going through the carbon and the ore? For that sounds a bit more difficult that just passing it near/around the carbon/ore pile. In the above rocket stove video it doesn't take much wind to make the air flows to go in the opposite direction so I'd say at the top of the flue there needs to be a cowling to stop wind gusts going down the flue.

The concept of the "right angle" and the related concepts of horizontal and vertical. Now that would have been a major invention in human development.

The smelting of copper was definitely easy compared to the effort to get iron. It seems remarkable that the concept would have been just happened on by chance. Did they go through a series of experimentation to get the method right, looking for the other ores? Years ago I invented the first version of the "Rocket Stove" but the version I made ran that hot it appeared to melt the metals it was made from, so I put it into the too hard basket to market it for home heating for it needed to be built of material like that used by the space shuttle heat shields. Today the internet is full of versions of the "Rocket Stove" but none come close to the temperatures I was getting as my invention preheated the air. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMMO65b8y6k The other aspect I worked on was too maximise the thermal effect. There appears no need to use bellows if the chimney thermal effect is maximised (keeping it long and insulated). In the Apostol rocket stove there is no attempt to insulate the flue or to preheat the combustion air, and yet he already gets impressive temperatures. It was made of aluminium, so if the flue was insulated it would have definitely melted away in minutes. It was possible to get the air moving through the stove so fast that charcoal lumps would be lifted up the chimney (that was getting scary). I also experimented with a vacuum cleaner that would blow air into it and made it into a "blast furnace" but it just got too dangerous. At the time I had run experiments to melt various metals and cast iron nearly melted but the ends of the chimney just oxidised and vaporized. (The flue was stainless steel flue pipe) I am tempted to look at the design again with the intention of smelting iron bloom from ore and charcoal layered as the Africans did without the need for bellows. Not only that but I think the energy lost in the charcoal making step can be incorporated into the process so it creates its own charcoal (replacing the extra charcoal added later in the video).

Could the ponding effect be used as a reference to determine horizontal and that would be necessary to start measuring angles? [i take your word for it that the base was waterproof?]

Thanks Strange. This bit makes sense: A chemical reaction precipitates metallic copper. Those good at chemistry does this sound right: "Hematite (iron oxide) in the lava oxidized the sulphur, depositing copper. The iron and sulphur were carried away as iron sulphate"? https://uwaterloo.ca/earth-sciences-museum/resources/detailed-rocks-and-minerals-articles/copper

Have you ever seen animals hunted in the manner you describe? Sounds barbaric even for 11,600 years ago.

OK that's how I think of it too. But the whole image is of crystals of copper ores not big slabs of native copper. Could the Earth's geological processes smelt the ore and make the copper metal pour down into a crack in the rock? (This would have to be a precise temperature range event, i.e. one just enough to keep the copper molten). My problem is understanding how could the copper molecules coalesce into slabs of native copper?

When I read your post I thought you might have clicked on to something that leads from hunting to domestication and that was keeping the herd of wild animals as a herd and following that herd. But the important thing is to keep the herd grouped at all times, which would always be selecting for the tamest of the group (leading to domestication). This same practice is still being practiced up near the Arctic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer#Reindeer_and_humans So the herded animals would benefit for the hunters would keep the wild animals of prey away from the herd so the young would survive. So that would mean the tamest of the wolves (leading to the domestic dog) would also benefit from a symbiotic relation with the hunters for they were useful in keeping other predators at bay and also for herding the semi-domesticated animals. Just thoughts but seems a possible . How that would tie in with Gobekli Tepe? But the need for a precise determination of the calendar may have been essential to have resources put into this science project.

OK it formed in a star somewhere in the universe before the solar system formed, then it goes through a supernova, then what happens?

As I read it Abraham didn't care which of his children got land. He was just happy to have any kids at all. He had married a wife who to all intends was barren, and Ishmael was born by a type of surrogacy but there seemed to be tension between the women and Sarah got her way and Hagar was sent packing. After Sarah died Abraham remarried and had a swag of other kids, all of which could have land and nations named after them. It is via Moses we get the "Promised Lands" so I would be interested to explore the Muslim view on the actions of Moses. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/string-theory-co-founder-sub-atomic-particles-are-evidence-0 This topic is being discussed separately http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/95795-dr-michio-kaku-i-have-concluded-that-we-are-in-a-world-made-by-rules-created-by-an-intelligence/ I would be mightly surprised if this was the same God as was envisioned by Abraham.

So "native copper" is found on the Earth. So where does that come from? Meteorites or a process that occurred naturally that refined it?

I read/heard somewhere else that these bones were mainly from the best parts of the animal. In other words I believe the slaughter dressing cooking occurred somewhere else and just the best bits were brought to the workforce at Gobekli Tepe.

Those metals alloy and form pewter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewter shows a simple technique of producing copper from malachite. I could imagine this happening by accident and then the process being continually improved.

How did humans discover the use of metals? I don't know but let's see if we can make sense out the clues discovered so far. Stone knives and spears gradually turned into metal knives and metal spear heads. I look around our lives and metals seem to be the thing that has made the biggest difference between us and the rest of the animal kingdom. How did this start?

I've been trying to formulate a ecumenical solution. Here is a rough attempt. The Muslims and (Christians) must accept the OT prophets that allowed the Jews to claim the lands of Israel (not sure of the actual physical boundaries). The Jews (and Muslims) must accept the NT and accept Jesus as the Messiah. The Christians (and Jews) must accept Muhammad as a prophet and include the Koran as part of the Bible.

I like the thought of Gobekli Tepe being used by " ... at night to make out and watch the stars".

Were there such things as knives, as in metal knives? Humans had stone knives but inscribing them?? I've never heard of that before. When Gobekli Tepe was built it could be getting around to the time in history that metal might have been used for knives. I think you are on to it there. Burial of the dead rituals seems to precede major technological advances.

@ Disarray - that is a very rare phrase "from bacteria to Buddha" and it is yours! Very true "taking what is useful and glossing over the rest". [The two finds of the phrase via Google probably have nothing to do with you.]

From within your heart what do you see? Don't rely on the stories no more, they are pointless if he didn't even exist in the first place. If you believe all these stories I will accept that is what you see, but if you don't what remains?

How can one sort this mess out? As soon as one religion says of another "their god is different than ours" that immediately implies there is at least two gods, so if they believe in one God and reject the other, can that religion rightly be called monotheistic? If there was only one God how come we have these differences?

Disarray - I'm wondering if you and I read the same story of Abraham (the basic story). I don't really see all these things there. Would you be willing to show me how you come to each of these conclusions please? I was more or less quoting from the Book of Hebrews (NT) and from memory where it describes Abraham as being justified by faith. OK that too then is someone else's interpretation but one that is accepted as the Christian point of view. Having such a long list (I'm again making presumptions) are you looking at it from a Jewish background point of view?

Shall we all be a bit clearer in what we state or imply then. For even Disarray made assumptions about the Americans even though it wasn't something they had actually stated. Can we make a declaration of where we stand so we don't make presumptions anymore?

I'd say it would have broadened the scope of the study, and then the teachers would be lost in the diversity. Even if America (USA) is monotheistic does that imply all of the religions follow the same god? I went to a church once where the pastor lambasted the muslims as not following "our" god. Is it all to do with names and spellings etc?