1x0

"In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space andtime into a single interwoven continuum. The spacetime of our universe is usually interpreted from a Euclidean space perspective, which regards space as consisting of three dimensions, and time as consisting of one dimension, the "fourth dimension". By combining space and time into a single manifold called Minkowski space, physicists have significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels." by wikipedia. I have no problem with the evolution if I inspect the system as an ever evolving finite system. I have difficulties to see evolution in chaos as everything is fine tuned and in order as far as I see it. What are the sings of infinity math based on? Sorry about it. I would wanted to receive understandings and reasonings about infinity. Please move it to speculation if the thread fitt there better. I do not know what is already known as I do not know who think what. The thread is to clear that view. Some say multiverses, some say MWI, some say universe with infinite space but limited energy etc... I do not know what is the current general understanding and I would like to see it more clear.

I agree. If time is not infinite space is not infinite right? I do not think it is true. I am conscious and I am part of this Universe. I am interconnected by gravity to everything else in this system so basically the whole universe could be conscious just by me. And there are many more other conscious entities out there. Like You.

I think the construction depends on what we would like to build with the tool we have in our hand. I do not see how math supporting infinity can work in a system most likely finite. Also math is a system evolved from a physical system still it does not support the physically presented values. 1x0, 1/0

Because infinite space imply infinite time. Infinite time would suggest that energy and matter is presented "ad libitum" in infinite space as we would be able to inspect just a glimps of it in our observable part of the Universe. I do not think that infinity imply equilibrium, I think infinity would much more imply chaos than equilibrium. As our mathematical systems works with infinity I wonder what supports that idea in the minds of science. I do see a huge system but I do not see the signs of infinity. I would like to gather more information about the way mathematicians and physicians think and discuss the evidences support the thought of infinity. Or more it would be an infinite singularity. That is why I do not think that infinity is a possibility. I do not think that what I ask and speak about is a random guessing.

Because there would be everything already and there would be no sense for evolution.

Infinity does not exist. It is a finite system with a starting point and an evolving exact size. If something like space or time is infinite doesn´t that mean that energy and so mass and matter has to be infinite too? If infinity is existing why would the Universe evolve?

Strange if e=0*c2 then with the current mathematical system it would mean e=0 as 0*c2=0. Not? That is why I am poundering the 0*1=1 thought

It was not my intention to spam but when I started in this community I misunderstood how the forum works and I shared the same thought 2 times. My mistake. Thanks for your nice words, I thy to make sense of my existence Although I think aswers will come while I am alive. Understanding might not be complete but at least I will see some glips of it. I believe technological singularity will support our understanding big time. My whole understanding is based on already know knowledge, I have some questions and doubts but that does not mean that I reject information provided by our scientists. I am very curious which information you can give me and I hope I can participate in a good discussion with you. Thoughts are evolving and even Feynman recommend not to talk about them I believe that results comes faster if we tast and reason different theories together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4s4U5bfIHw I mean here that if we speak about symmetry something has to be symmetric and so something is already presented what we can observe. As so it is not the beginning as that something we observe is a result of a previous physical process. I think it is a step by step evolution. The system has a starting point where the whole system is evolved from. That point is nothing. In proportion to this nothint will that first something exist. It is not like that something always have existed. That would mean that space, time, energy matter and information is infinitely presented in the system. Why would our system be so fine tuned if it would be so. It would be much more chaos then not? Why space would expand, why time would tick, why information would evolve? What would be the reason for progress? It is not just because I can not. The question is can anyone think of a lower physical state as I presented. The other question can we make sense of something if that something haven´t exist once or we do not know where our understanding originates. Like in our fairy tales the dragons clearly originates from the previous fingings of dinosaurs remains and theirs mistification in fairies. The question could we make sense of nothing if that would not exist once. Can we make sense of infinity? If we can not does not that mean that infinity does not exist? That the unconscious mind has no knowledge of time does not mean that its physical existence does not provide that information. It is the our common agreement how we inspect this operation with zero. The problem is here that you can not prove this simple 1x0=0 in physical reality as anything you observe will be there even you try to neglect it. The question here is why we do not inspect this operation from the existing values point of view. "there is no exponentional expansion of nothing" I disagree with this. I think the system is originating from nothing and as so in its philosophical aspect everything is the result of the evolution of nothing. If it would not be so we would observe chaos in infinity. "Science loves math because math gives them facts and truth" Will you be nothing because you did not evolve in a given space time moment? If we describe You by the natural number 1 and your lack of evoultion in rest in a moment described by number zero, What will be the result of the operation when we observe You in the next moment of existence? (although this situation can not happen as even you are in rest and you do not receive information the universe evolves around you. - meaningless operation! but lets say that we caunt that evolution of the universe and its effect on you in that moment and the value of that will be 0.0000....001 in proportion to your already existing values) Still the present value what you will have at the end of the operation will be 1 (you) or if we count that minor development 1x0,000...00001=? Will you be the minor development provided by the evolution of the universe or will you be You plus the minor development effecting your whole existence? The question raises why we do not respect the originally presented value in our equations if we operate under 1? (I hope I could make sense) This system is part of a whole system. The big bang can be the origin just there is progress before which ended up in the big bang. Yes I am after where reality came from. Information/intelligence (will of existence) presented with low energy and mass in space expanding with c2 since that moment of appearance. I disagree with this. Why the system would evolve and why we would observe the expansion of space if the system would be infinite? "I suspect that the panpsychism explanation that everything knows what it is contributes to the intelligence of reality. But everything is not aware -- only life is aware" - How unconscious matter can support any biological entity and support consciousness in some of them if it does not carry basic intelligence/information which can adjust to the already existing biological system and its consciousness? In other words atoms can have basic intelligence just it is so low we can not measure. (we can not make sense of our intelligence and consciousness yet so how could we make sense of the intelligence of an atom if it has?)

I would say though that space is a condition we live in as space is a physical entity and time is an information about the current circumstances we exist and it can be information about space time energy or matter. All of those physical entities has an age Space and time is not independent but as so energy matter is not independent from time. Everything has an age. The speed of light is a result of a circumstance which determines this property. In other worlds there is a reason why the speed of light is 299792458 meter/s This is an interesting point. How can we say than that a distant galaxy is 1 billion light years away if we would not be able to set this information to the light travelled with the c. In other words if something traveling with the speed of light does not experiencing time than it is not able to provide that information. Still we are able to get the information out from the observed distant galaxy. I agree. I think that Einstein´s equation is actually a ratio between energy matter and space. I think Einstein realized that energy and matter is an observable result of a physical process. My assumption is that c2 stands for the rate of expansion of space in low energy and matter. In other words when the system created no energy and mass were present. The Universe kicked off by the appearance of intelligence with low energy and mass as well as space started to expand with a rate of c2 in correlation with the presented low energy and matter (the limit which determins that the expansion rate of space is c2 and not higher). In other words the presented universe is an evolving balance between the expanding space and the evolving enegy and mass. Everything controlled by the Laws of Nature (which I would call intelligence - not the allmighty but a delicate basic one evolved with the system too) I also assume that intelligence/information were the first in the system as everything we can and can not observe (consciousness) present a certain level of information. Einsteins equation is the rate of evolution from nothing to everything. I think the expansion of space is responsible for the creation and evolution of energy. As well as energy is responsible for space´s rate of expansion although space is always a "step ahead" What is interesting too is that if Einsteins equation is Universal then it means that the first energy presented in the system had mass too. If it is not true as they say photons does not have mass then mass is zero in this equation at the beginning of the system and so we speak about a different mathematical system where e=0*c2 is valid. I assume though that energy has a certain level of mass and the e=mc2 describes that too. Or not? I like pondering and I would be really happy for your oppinion about my thoughts.

Time is information about space and other physical objects. The presentation is a concept, I mean we choose how we measure time and might be in other parts of the universe they measure it in a different scale but the the infromation they extract about the physical object is the same. If you are aware of the exact information time provides (you can count it from its origin) and you are aware of the expansion rate of space in different gravitational circumstances and you are aware of the physical properties of an object you can predict its exact position in the system. Heisenberg´s uncerainty works untill we work with infinity. As every larger physical object has it ceratin place in the universe as it is existing in a stabil well defined system with clear properties so the subatomic particles are existing in an exact point in a given moment. The question is are we aware of all information to determine that point of existance? Can we determine the position of a subatomic particle if we are not aware of the precize information the sytem provides for us. Size of the whole system, time of existence, speed of the objcets in different gravitational circumstance (Here I think about the expansion rate of space in low gravitational force like at the origin of space) Schrödingers cat is dead or alive but sure do not exist in two different state. It might be a 50 -50 chance but the cat is dead as soon the reaction happened in the box. I still don´t know at the moment I open the box but the physical reality have happened now matter how uncertain I am. I wonder does electrons around an atom changes throught time? I mean does electrons are stationary or are they waves on what the "positive physical world" is "sliding" on, and the one with the best position collapes around an atom in the moment of observtion?

Why this way of thinking has to be canonical? I mean "metaphysical" values (consciousness, feelings, thoughts..) are existing in the dimensions of physical reality, doesn`t that mean then that they are part of physics too? I see. But as far as I understood our current mathematical system would not work if we would not work with infinity. I mean we use infinity in math don´t we?

Yes. It points that electric impulses transfer information and that electrons has specific properties we are not yet aware of. The question is how fine and detailed informations attached to electrons and how they "work" together to present a complex information/memory/feeling? How information, memories, feelings can be transfered in our life from one electron/atom/biologic structure to another? I mean how can memories and feelings be presented in our declining years when every single atom in the body is changed during our lifetime? Then the question comes: can the information what an atom carries be called basic intelligence as it can support any biological construction it participate in, as a human body and it´s consciousness. I disagree. Our consciousness, feelings, thoughts are processed and presented through our physical tool our body. As so I think it is more physics job to make sense of these properties than religion. The One Universe. I do not think that those theories are valid as everything is regulated by the same physical Laws. Even if there are dimension differences those Laws will be the same as I think they exist in the same 3D space interconnected by gravity. As so any "other universe" belongs actually to the same system. I think those theories comes from the misconception of infinity. I am happy to hear it. Right now I can see it in a binary system. We set the points of a personality in the binary system and evaluate them with a common scaling system. Questions regarding personality, feelings, thoughts etc. I point how we use math. I also point that our Universe is one does not matter how complex it is. Which reference point would you use to make sense of that One Universe and what would be the properties of that reference point? How can you make sense of yourself as one? How much are you in proportion to everything or in proportion to nothing? 1/infinite=0? Are you nothing in proportion to everything? If you are not nothing than is not that indicates that the system is finite? Isn´t it 1/everything=0.000.....001 (you or any physcal entity the question asks) 1/0=infinite? Are you everything in proportion to nothing? If you are not everything then is not this indicates that the system is finite? Isn´t it 1/0=1 as you already exist in proportion to nothing?

Thanks Strange for your answers! It must be my bad English. I mean the common space-time continuum. You and me we exist in the "same" space if you look on space as one physical entity. Does time ticking for us the same? Basic information is the properties of things we can measure, but information is your experience, knowledge, thoughts too. Information exist beyond your physical construction. You can count all atoms and measure all of its properties in your body but you can not count your experience, conciousness and feelings, your metaphysical values yet. Your metaphysical values exist because your physical appearance (your body and it´s genetic information) allows it to exist. Doesn´t that genetic information is a collection of information evolving since the beginning? What is the first information your Intelligence built on? What was first information how the physical value should exist or physical value and information is a result? Multiverse theories, MWI... Our consciousness, subconsciouness, intelligence, experience, knowledge and feelings. They exist in connection with our physical body but beyond its measurable properties. I think they would be measurable in binary like systems with reference a point we can measure them to. Like zero. That is how we learned to count. An apple has a lot of properties we could descrige. Radius, mass, genetic information, atoms it contains or cells it contains. Still if you look at an apple you are able to make sense of its entirety and call it one apple. It is the same for the universe just a bit bigger. Interesting: If I am able to able to look at you, see your physical appearance, experience you knowlegde and thoughts I would say you are One. You are far from the complexity of the universe but you present One part of its physical/metaphysical values. t:On this question a 6 years old says 0. What is the difference of her and your understanding? Can you make sense of something what do or did not exist? Can you make sense of nothing if it did not exist?

I will try to give some assumptions which on the Idea is based on. Please not that this is the first time I do so and I am not totally familiar with the rules you use here (or in the scientific community) so correct me where I do mistakes so I can present the idea on a discussable form. I will present the basic thoughts, I hope that is what you meant with falsifiable. 1. The Universe is one. It all the energy and matter regulated by the common physical laws in the same/common space-time frame. 2. What is physically nothing? A space time energy matter information free state. Questions: a, Can we count the Universe as one? b, Does space and time started once or are they always existed? c, If space and time has started once did they start together? d, If space and time has started once does information related to their funcions is a consequence of the appearance of this physical entities or information have determine theirs functions. e, If space and time infinite where and how the information regarding to theirs funcions and construction were introduced in the system. Can we accept an answer that they were always there and why we do have to accept such an assertion? f, How far an other universe has to be that we can call it a different space-time dimension than ours? g, How far that other Universe would have to be that our universes gravitational field has 0 effect on it? h, On which other way an Universe could have evolved that the physical laws appear differently. (speculation but can we run thoughts?) i, Can nothing physically exit? j, Can nothing physically existed? k, Does the Universe evolving? l, Does information carries or in any way present energy? m, Does information evolving? n, Where does information evolving from? o, Did information always existed? p, Does information introduced in the system before, after or at the same time when space-time started. q, Does metaphysical values built on the same physical laws as physical values built on? r, If you would have to describe the universe with a natural number which one would that be? s, If you would have to describe yourself with a natural number which one would that be? t, If you would have to describe nothing with a number which one would that be? u, Does Einsteins E=mc2 stands in the first physical process? All answers are welcome and please reason your thoughts. Swansont I hope point 1 and 2 can be falsifiable. I hope the questions are not too disturbing, if yes please write to me before you close the thread and I remove them. Please note that I have just started in this forum (did not mean to spam , so please help me how can I present a more valuable discussion to the community if the ones I post are too nebulous. Thanks in advance! Laszlo

This is not the big bang theory. It is a theory of a delicate simple creation and its evolution to the first observable physical sign for us we call the big bang. This so called big bang is presented with space, energy and information (laws determine the process of the big bang) and so the big bang as origin can not be validated. All physical models operate with a smaller system expanding to be a bigger system. There is a reason for that which is the exponentially expanding space in the linear timeline and the evolution of energy, matter and information. If you follow this path backwards you reach the physical zero state at the end of the survey. The big bang is just a road block it does not mean that time, space, energy, matter and information did not evolve until that point. Can you express the physical zero state better? Zero is a numerical expression of a conception. Zero is the only physical value can be expressed by math as a natural number. The reason why it is a reference point. And it is a common reference point. Does space time energy matter and information evolving or not? If you come to the conclusion that it does, where does it evolving from? Follow this path and you will reach a point where you can ask a very common question: What was before? and you can give a firm answer: nothing. If you reached here then try to assume what was first introduced in this state of nothing. How could it have started? Why did it started? I assume it is intelligence (the will of existence) which created space started time and presented with a low level energy. Einsteins Equation should work here too. True, but zero have existed I think. If 0= space time energy matter information free nothing 1= all energy matter information presented in the common space-time frame It is our point of observation from the point of nothing everything exist looks like this 0,000000.......1.......2...common physical reality....3.......4......5......6......Laszlo.....0000....00001 If we inspect it from the first physical/metaphysical entities point of view it looks like this: 1000000000.......0000000.......Laszlo....6.....5......4......3.......common physical reality....2......1......000000,0 Which mathematical operation describes the first physical process? I would say 0x1=1 I assume that everything originates from nothing with a cause and causality evolution. Everything exist in proportion to zero, in other words all physical entity presented in the system is already operated by zero. 1*0=1*0*0 (zero could be the indicator for the expansion/evolution of the system if you model it in a 4D binary system (3 space +1 time dimension)) Zero is a conception ever since anything exist. Our mathematical system is a conception but this conception has to work in the physical reality too and keep in respect the value presented in the system and described by a natural number. 1x0 Time started once. It is not an ever existed infinite timeline. There is a point when time has started. The same when space started, when the first intelligence appeared and the first low level energy introduced to the system. When space started to expand. (I assume space with low level energy and intelligence expands with c2 and Einsteins equation predicts the rate of creation and the components correlation) If we know the exact moment of the origin and we know the rate of expansion of space we would also know the size of the universe. The size of the system is getting bigger and bigger, but since the whole physical reality is working in the same space under the regulation of the common physical laws we can describe this system as 1. The One which originates from nothing with a cause and causality evolution. 0=1 I hope I could make sense. No. It is an assumption based on the exponential expansion of space in a linear timeline and based on the evolution of energy matter and information.

I mean that the Universe originates from nothing and that nothing is the space(time) energy(matter) information free nothing. Zero is the absence of space time energy matter and information. Zero is our mathematical expression of the phyical zero state. Zero is a conception ever since anything exist. In other words everything exist in proportion to zero. 0=1. A reference point for the physical and metaphysical values and for theirs origin. It is a reference point for the finite but ever evolving Universe.

Thanks for your response Gee, I know the actual meaning of symmetry. The question belong to ydoaPs´s expression on the origine as: "The universe as we know it is the result of a symmetry-breaking phase transition." To set up a symmetry we need something to be symmetric. In this case the symmetric something is a result of an other something (cause and causality) and as so can not be the origine. Also the symmetric structure we inspect carries information and most likely something what is symmetric. I hope I could make sense Any physically observable or measurable value can not be the origin because it is originating from something/somewhere too (presented there for and with a reason). Cause and causality. The physically observable is a result of something it is evolved from. That is why my assumption is that the origin is nothing, plus that everything seems to evolve in this system so if it evolves it evolves from somewhere/something and I assume that is the lowest possible physical state the physical zero state. And the system evolves step by step from this state, cause and causality. Why from this? Because I can not think of a lower physical state or value than a space time energy matter information free nothing. Anything exist in this Universe present a higher value than the physical zero state. Can you express a lower value? And yes it is an assumption but in this assumption you can not ask what was before and where does that state come from I think there is a lot of evidence that it starts from nothing. The exponentional expansion of the system in a linear timeline for sure is a good indicator, as well as the evolution of other physical properties as information energy and matter. An avalanche like evente with a small force as a trigger ask for a huge amount of matter in a specific construction which again carries a large amount of physical values (can not be the origin). The big bang is a result of something but for sure not the origin of this system. Physical values presented in the big bang, where did they come from? No. I do not say that intelligence does not evolve. On the contrary. I do think and I do say that Intelligence is evolving too. See my previous posts on page two in this thread or read one of my other posts here: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/88043-god-and-the-physical-reality/ So I think we do agree that intelligence evolves. That is a good sign It is the tiniest thought can exist in proportion to nothing. The one exist in every physically presented value. The will of existence. This is a basic information presented in every observable physical unit. I also think that metaphysical entities build on this smallest thought too. Every information originates and evolved from this first basic intelligence and so it is part of everything. As zero is part of everything since the physical world exist in proportion to zero. 0=1 (or in other words zero is a conception ever since anything exist ) I am aware of the evolution of the system on the physical and metaphysical level too. This is why I am here. I think if you make sense of nothing you will come to some very different conclusions on the field of science. Laszlo

What is that symmetry and where is it originates from? What made the phase transition? Intelligence? Information? The problem with this approach that it is suggesting that things were there already and so philosophically it can not be the origin. (Where that value is from?) It also would require an enormous force to make that phase transition. Where that force originates from and why that appeared/happened? One of the reasons why I try to approach the origin from the lowest possible physical state and follow it with an evolutionary way of assumptions. That is why I think that metaphysical values like information/intelligence (will of existence) should be the first introduced at the origin. Metaphysical values exist beyond the actual physical reality. With this way of philosophical approac we can keep up a continuous evolution of the Universe, instead we have to explain and work with values "always" existed. What can be confusing, that if anything exist zero is a conception and since we inspect this system from the physical values point of view zero is an impossible idea as we can not recreate that state again. (the reason why mulitverse/paralel universe theories can not work, that state existed just once) What we can do is to inspect the evolution of the sytem and assume how the origine could happen. We can not recreate a 100% precise early universe model and make it a physical reality but we can know its existence based on our observations. How difficult would be to set up a model which works with an absolult zero origin and treats the whole system as 1? Maybe we could set it up as a 3D binary system where the physically inspected Laws apply in the whole system and the physically inspected values evolve in correlation with the Laws apply in the system but treated as stabil evolving values in that binary construction. I hope you can make sense what I mean.

If anything exist nothing can not exist. We can just see the signs of it´s possible existence. Also since anything exist there is no physical possiblility to prove that zero can exist. What is c2 then? Why can not expansion be explaind in terms of speed?

Why can´t we say out it is from nothing? Why it can not be c2?

My bad Strange. I see you have said "in the classical view". Then what is your current understanding Strange? If it is not from nothing then where is it from? Can you say this is the origin if there is anything? (I guess this is more a philosopical question than a physical one) How fast empty space expands you think?

There is just one beginning. It must be a very delicate one. There might be an awful lot of cyclic events. (big bang(s)?) I wonder can states and values disappear as they once were? Can they evolve? I wonder can nothing be everything? I mean if it is true as Strange said that we can follow the origin to a point zero size why can not we follow it to a total physical zero state. Assume that the Universe could have evolved from nothing. The question will be which steps the Universe have started with. An other question is does the state of nothing still exist at the edge of the universe? The edge of information or basic intelligence filled space and nothing. (I assume here that space is a different dimension as energy/matter) Can nothing be everything? I mean if we assume that the universe have started from nothing (or infinitely small) it means that actually the whole system we inspect actually is nothing or more it exist in relation to nothing. I mean like all physically inspectible value already operated with all physical(mathematical) operation possible with nothing. But how can that be? 0=1 ? Can the question be: where we inspect the system from? Can we make sense of everything if we give that two value theirs actual properties? 0= space (time) energy (matter) information free nothing 1= information space energy matter filled everything Everything exist in proportion to nothing. All operation ever could happen in this system gives this One. Energy can not disappear from the system but as space can be created can energy be created too? Or not? I mean space´s expansion accelerate, the gravitational constant is stabil. Does that not mean that energy and so matter and mass is increasing too? Can 1 as discribed up there be an actually increasing reference point (if we inspect it from the exponentionally increasing amount of fractals in the system´s point of view) ? It feels like the Universe is evolving and not "just" changing and reorganizing energy. We can not say for sure how the beginning have happened but at least we can play with the thought of nothing. In proportion to nothing the observed value or information is clear.

I would say as a reference point like zero and the frame I set to extract further information

I have some difficulties to make sense of Entropy. I mean if I inspect a system which is working in changing physical circumstances like increased or decreased temperatur, the system is constantly try to adapt to the new circumstances to maintain equilibrium in the system. The question is why we call the state of equilibrium the maximum entropy (or maximum disorder) when It seems that it is the maximum order in proportion to the physical circumastances we inspect the system in. I mean if I inspect an isolated system as I understood this system will always approach to equilibrium. But why we call this state maximum disorder? In that inspected equilibrium I can predict the correlation of the components in the whole system. (like the density of a NaCl solution) But if we speak about maximum disorder wouldn´t that mean that the system behaves chaotic and I can not predict the properties of the system? Where from my confusion originates: Does information increases entropy? If I inspect a human body and all of its molecular functionalities, the system is in constant change and motion. It is a very well orchestrated order, but the disorder of the system is more likely to happen presented as diseases. In this case I would say the the entropy a system increases with the amount of information presented in its operations. An other example: Like the concentration of whiteblodcells when a bacteria is present in the circulation. The equilibrium of the general whiteblodcell concentration in the system changed (disorder increased) and so I would say entropy increased. As soon as the bacteria is eliminated the system turns back to equilibrium where the concentration of the WBC will be more balanced. Order increases. Or? What I missunderstand on Entropy?

Wouldn´t we need to know the speed of the object for the arrange a meeting? I mean I can set a time but without the speed of the objects the meeting would be unlikely. Could you explain the dimensional properties of time because I still just see the information it provides about space. Does it mean that information is a different dimension? That phase of the oscillation is a fraction of spacetime. Do you think time itself provides something more than information? Can we call it a dimension?