DrDoggy

I have ordered a test kit, I also have this water pumped full of oxygen even prior to ozoneation, -- i am not worried about killing / or not killing bacteria but I worry that the ozone will break down plant nutrients ....? I also worry that the by-products of bpa ozoneation will be toxic......but maybe i dont need to worry, will these chems evaporate out with aeration, will the BPA? is that what you are trying to say Junkie? also another question, would it help if i pretreated the plastic with heavy does of o3 , would that draw out the BPA, or would it more likely dissolve the whole pipe to nothing?

yes, I am concerned about that, I guess I should elaborate, in my system there are also fish, plants and lots of aeration. will aeration alone be able to dissolve/dissipate this chemical? I am using water grade pvc, but they mention not to let it sit in the sun, which is a flaw in my design, also why i am expecting to need to worry about BPA, I realize o3 will kill the microbugs too, if need be i will isolate the water from the system for o3 sterilization and allow o3 to dissipate before reintroducing, but i won't be changing the ph too much, but my concern is the plant nutrients , will they decompose too in o3>? ... and again the by-products, but it sounds like there is little concern there. some statistics I found were: France set its safe level of BPA exposure at 0.0025 ppb per day ........... this would be ideal European Union’s limit is 600 parts per billion of BPA per kilogram of food,..........prolly more feasible and Japan’s limit is 2,500 ppb ...... too high for my comfort ... but i dont know what the rate of leakage is for pvc pipes , but since water is in closed loop circuit the contamination will be accumulative... since uv light works, i already have one installed..... would that on its own be enough/a good idea?

the problem comes from that i want to keep water in rain barrels and cycle it with pvc pipes , so the bpa will accumulate from my plastics "leaching" I hope i am able to break it down with ozone to safer substances, also would UV light work to break down the bpa?

from link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18752822 some of the contents: catechol, orthoquinone, muconic acid derivatives of BPA, benzoquinone and 2-(4-hydroxyphenyl)-propan-2-ol. aliphatic acids or aldehydes, quote:The formation of these latter products would not be favored under water treatment conditions.\\ are all these chems unsafe to be in drink water, or just the last 2? do they say that (from quote) because of the wide range of contaminants in waste water? would ozone work to treat my tap/bottled water for bsa? thanks!

ack! I'm very sorry guys you keep mentioning that it is only for gas phase, idk why i keep blocking it out! thanks again for all the patience! Yah, I get basically what you are saying with the nerst eq, but only basically, all the numbers get me lost , and mostly only understand in relationship from my electronics edu on cells. Actually I'm also interested in the effects of a current flow, but please just a simple description, it also brings up a question for me about things like different flows and potentials at different points.... and how fast do they travel...is it related to the em wavelength and speed of light

how misleading?

Hi, still wrapping my brain around all this! and i think i get it now, but i keep hitting a wall, partially due to the fact that alot of the web confuses IP to be the same as IE, so turning to the electrolysis of water i need at least 1.23 volt to start an electrolysis process, also i discovered a thing called overpotential, which says i actually need 1.5volt to overcome activation barriers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water does that mean my ionization potential is 1.23 volt? and is that regardless to volume & size and more to do with electrode spacing? and if so , how do i calculate volts required for x distance between electrodes? thanks!

hardly brush, usually floss, visit the dentist regularly , eat drink lots of coffee/sugar, smoke, countless number of cavitys all along my gum line and constant work needs doing, no teeth lost yet at 35yrs old, one is almost dead, and will need to be pulled soon. overall , why chance it, odds are they will be all gone when im older

maybe later on we could proceed with semi-conductors, but for now im still curious as to how conductors work in this situation, for example in a reaction similar to electroplating where my copper anode metal "Migrates" to the brass cathode, how would it go about? ie: 1)first i charge my anode to the ionization voltage 2) the anode atoms then migrate to the brass cathode where they bind. 3) this reaction will use up current/power/ev based on reaction volume & time. 4) but what happens with the electrolyte, wouldn't having it cause conduction and therefore a "leakage current" ? Is there a way to minimize this loss/ or is there another way to compensate? (Or maybe im just over thinking) 5) also in this situation what if i wanted to multiply the production rate? would that mean doubling the current, which would mean doubling the voltage input? also maybe i am confused about how to get to second ionization energy, am i mistaken that ionized particles dont necessarily conduct? for example , i charge my material to the first ionization voltage, it starts to conduct causing current, now how do i get to second ionization, is it just a matter of turning volts up to second ionization potential, will there be additional leakage current, (again maybe overthinking)

oya, that also brings up another question, or2, like does negative ionization affect the molecules coheision the same way positive does? ie are negative ions more chemically stable? also,heh, i have always wondered what would happen if a lightning strike hit a pvc tube full of water, would that split the H & O (if it didnt split the pipe)? 0.6v? isnt the first ionization potential of Si 8v? That explination of ionizing gases makes sense but then what about in the terms of liquids/solids, such as water and our silicon and/or liquid salt, does this migration happen in these situations too?

edit: how much volts amps, would I need to remove the second ionization shell, wouldnt the conductance of the "first ionizaton" particles cause current leakage making it harder to volt up?

thanks again for all the help, I have been busy pondering these things and i think i understand basically how it is working , I know i have questions still, but not sure what they are! Another thing that is crossing wires is what is ionization, we mentioned that when salt is dissolved in water it becomes ionized, then it conducts electricity, does the same hold true when we are talking about ionization energy, ie, if i were to ionize silicon, would that put it in to a conductive state? also, if i do ionize silicon, by applying a certain volts + amps, and it is now conducting, how would I get to remove the second ionization shell? maybe i am confused about this as well, but: when i think of ionization i think of +ve volts being applied to a material causing a static charge, without a ground, but that is contradictory to my knowledge of electrolysis where i would want a closed loop circuit, ?

not sure about the second part but its better to look at your equation like this: H + OH = H2O or acid + base = water

ok i get it, DMFC's need reduction to hydrogen to work, also i get that there is corrosion if we don't use platinum electrodes, I heard someone came out with a "black paint" that makes for solid electrodes, but i wonder what is the property that makes platinum durable? More curious to me is the membrane, or any membrane for that matter, what are the properties that define a good material for proton exchange? ie, what is it that allows H+ to pass through but nothing else? also I dont understand how salt bridges work, i guess these are a little different, could be considered electron exchange membranes?

Just started reading about these, seems there has been recent activity from a company called Bloom , who is able to host a fuel cell that costs $8000 per kw, Another company has made claim that they are able to do 1000$ per kw, but according to the review nothing has come out of production yet. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/518516/an-inexpensive-fuel-cell-generator/ .....also they do not answer their phone, not what i look for in my first choice. I am looking for something in the 10kw range and will be feeding it natural gas. So , i wonder , is it possible to get a fuel cell for myself, without being a corporation? and what type of cell do i need? , any suggestions of where i can get one? and what i should get? I am assuming that when they talk about electrolyte, they mean more than a salt bridge, and this would be way too difficult to make my own...

yes post 33 sits well, hope you enjoyed days off!, all this is starting to make very much sense, very much ready for part 2, thanks! also i have been looking at cells closer now and as a side question wondering about electrolyte bridges, how do you get them wet without having them dissolve in to the solution? or* how do they conduct without being wet? Also Sensi, I think i get it , you are saying that in my laser reaction is a net 0 - photon lost, BUT we need to sustain that heat average to keep the reaction active, and the heat generated from my laser that i need to water cool is just leakage for that container?

I think what is really getting me with enthalpy here is "energy"?, are we saying energy in the form heat, or energy which could be heat?, also are the other forms of energy included in the ^H,^S tables, or do they have seperate table?, (one i can think of is the spectroscopy table, which is obviously separate)? I realize its measured in joules, which suggests energy, but then when the tutorial generalizes they throw the word heat in there. which suggests that enthalpy breaks down to another equation?

I still wonder though, enthalpy and entropy as mentioned(thanks!) are total energy measurements, but how does that energy break down to its types, ie, heat , light, (sound im not too concerned) , also how are these emitted, ie, light emissions would be in certain spectra based on what? OR same question: what forms is the energy transmitted when we talk about entalpy and entropy? ie is it via the kinetic energy that is described as temperature, where molecules bounce off each other, or via an infra-red band spectrum from emission? Specifically in the case of my laser, any chem reaction that happens then reverses itself, so all we have is the energy loss from the photon being emitted from the ionization, but the heat generated from ionization should cancel out after the electron is readded. there for my laser should not get hot. to me it sounds like , we are putting enough energy in to form ionizations, but then have put in additional energy that did not make it to the ionization point which releases as heat. Where does this heat come from? It seems to me that there should be a way to tune my energy input so that there is no excess heat and only light , but how could i do this? my first guess is that i should pulse my energy input at a specific time interval(frequency)., I have been thinking about this and it seems that if my pulse is too fast the energy will act as an xray and travel through , if it is too slow, this is where i get my heat, much like dc in a wire? am i close with this?

ok, so it sounds like gibbs and hemholts are similar except that the second one has constant values, also im cool with gibbs energy if my previous statement is true , which i will continue to assume, Entropy is also very curious as most of the tutorials glaze over it, however this link was very interesting especially about micro-states, hint: in regard to this i notice he uses the "horseshoe" , I doubt he is talking about ohms though also i wonder about the rate of decay for a micro state, oh, that would be the thermal conductivity, Also I am happy with PV coefficient now , =nRT, which explains how they relate, but i am still not sure how ionization potential fits in to all of this

yes pls! Ready! These are long questions , about what you say about the forms of energy, and how they equate. I just want to make sure i am correct with the following, and understand properly, if that is the case then i think my head can wrap so far!: "gibbs energy is the work i get out of it, which implies the total energy in/out, which is: enthalpy, the change of energy in the system MINUS entropy, energy required to drive the system"

It has been very interesting learning about delta H, and how I need to apply the changes to each member in the Stoichiometry, but which of these values is the ionization energy we were talking about? gibbs free energy, I need to look at better, i think? that looks like my total power input? because it is the change of energy in system, minus the change of"disorder?" Entropy also answered alot of things about what i didnt understand prior. and seems to describe my question earlier about dispersal of the systems, which im looking in to...To me it sounds like it is somewhere in the entropy equations i will find my volts required? But i think im confused, gibbs energy is the work i get out of it, which implies the total energy in/out, which is: enthalpy, the change of energy in the system MINUS entropy, energy required to drive the system, is that correct? so with my laser and ionization energy i am really only looking at enthalpy? Also I am happy that i did not confuse PV(pressure,volume) with PV(power,volts)!

Because there is more to this than just applying voltage. basically i want to know what "more" is.... simply i need to know which chart i should be getting eV values from and how to establish what Voltage needs to be applied to split/ionize said given compound. with the factors that make up that value such as things like temperature, pressure, density. I'm not really sure about all factors in this equation.. (Im sorry if I'm making you repeat things, but im still unclear about which eV chart is which) And if its possible how to predict how that energy i put in to the compound will react/dissipate, ie light, heat, chem reaction, ect..

in a gaseous state,... i always forget that, but now im confused, so i use ionization energy for gaseous emission spectrum, and lattice energy for electrolysis of liquids, but don't i use enthalpy for that? and heat of hydration is the change in enthalpy when dissolved in water? in that case i will simplify and leave the water out. I am still reading the Nernst equation , it looks like what im looking for but i will need to read in to it a bit more to understand it.. Also Imatfaal and Fuzworth i reread that link a 3rd & 4th time and I didn't realize that Na is a touchy subject, so i am going to steer this conversation away from this compound, I was merely using it since it seemed to be a common topic so was using it as reference to get broader help. I had no intention to stagnate you but was encouraging you to elaborate, and I like what you said in post 14 about conductivity, which is 1/resistance, but i question any compound having an infinity resistance. and would suspect that we can plot resistance vs temperature, or at least resistance vs density, or something like that. to which R>0 and would not hit that axis, also thanks i forgotten about NaOH. Lots of great help guys! but maybe i should step back a bit, I come from the world of electricity where p=vi and v=ir , and now energy=p*t! I have recently been taking interest in lasers where we get our tube of gas and based on that gas type a energy emission value is produced, in the example of the air laser, you get your color emission , but you also get ozone from ionizing the oxygen and lasers are very inefficient due to heat loss, the basic question is how do i establish the volts i need to apply which is dependent on resistance which i assumed is relative to things like pressure, temperature, volume, and the atom/molecule's energy shell factor. And how can i calculate how much of my total energy is being broken up between those different outputs. Also it is funny and the first time i have ever heard my language called pidgin, but I do need to be careful of communication errors in here, from my standpoint energy and potential energy are different, but i will proceed in assuming that in chemistry IE and IP are similar.

THANKS, and im sorry to come across rough, i can accept criticism and being told im wrong, but only telling me to go back to school wastes time for us all , as well as the forum. quote: Because there is more to this than just applying voltage. This is what im trying to figure out, comments like that are just telling me what we all already know, not what i need to know, or at least what i need to research to figure it out for myself, I have gotten that 1.5eV from this reference: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/molecule/nacl.html quote: sodium only 5.14 electron volts of energy to remove that electron. The chlorine lacks one electron to fill a shell, and releases 3.62 eV when it acquires that electron (it's electron affinity is 3.62 eV). This means that it takes only 1.52 eV of energy to donate one of the sodium electrons to chlorine when they are far apart. also i just realize that 1.52 is wrong since i forgot to add in the "coulomb attraction force" , is this a general value that is always applied, or does it change with every atom/molcule? Also pls confirm that your reference to "ionization potential" is the same as ionization energy, as per this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energy also according to this chart: http://web.williams.edu/Astronomy/research/PN/nebulae/ionpotentials.jpg 47.3eV is the SECOND ionization energy, pls confirm. and also please explain mathematically how you have derived 47.3 volt from that 47.3eV(this is what i dont understand) edit:omitted question

ohno, you cant trick me, only you have suggested reading a whole book which i prolly already did and could not find anything about this, in english anyway...EDIT:..... Maybe i choose the wrong book, I have first year chemistry, which year do you suggest i read? I dont get why though as i have been told 1.5eV is what i need, which is also the minimum voltage i require to get a reaction, also , does the energy i wasted putting in to heat to melt it contribute to bring that 1.5eV value down?