brain-in-a-vat

God particle? Possibly if you mean is there a single particle/force that unifies and is common to all particles with mass. Strings maybe, or even a new level of undetectable quantum action such as a quantum particle/wave. There are a variety of possibilities but my favorite is a big crunch. I like that alternative but it requires that there be as yet undiscovered physics that could make a big crunch result in a Big Bang. I'm thinking that if there is a limit to energy density, i.e. a maximum possible energy density in the universe, and if a big crunch can cause that level of energy density through the heat and pressure associated with massive objects, new physics could come into play that leads to the burst of a big crunch. Probably not. Yes, but there could be multiple arenas each like our expanding observable universe within a greater universe. If the Big Bang was preceded by a big crunch then there could be multiple Big Bangs each preceded by a big crunch. For that to be the case though, a big crunch would have to be a common occurrence. That would suggest that a big crunch could form when two or more expanding arenas, each similar to our expanding universe (multiple universes) expand and intersect with each other. The overlap of two expanding universe-like arenas would interrupt the expansion momentum of each expanding arena. When the expansion momentum is interrupted, gravity would overcome expansion and the galaxies that are mixing and merging in the overlap space would swirl and collapse into the new center of gravity to form a new big crunch. They do if there are multiple arenas that overlap and if the galactic material in the overlaps collapse into big crunches. Like I said though, there are many alternative ideas about what came before the Big Bang and so it is a matter of opinion as to which alternative is more likely. And then too, standard theory, i.e. BBT with inflation implies that both space and time began with the Big Bang. Most people will tell you that BBT does not actually say there was such an event. BBT with Inflation and General Relativity start 10^-43 seconds after whatever event occurred to cause the initial expansion of our observable universe so what came "before" is said to be an invalid concept because if time started at the instant of the Big Bang then there was no "before". I still like the big crunch alternative myself.

QWC has selected the most likely cause of expansion and asks for comments and ideas to build on the idea that (step 1) the Big Bang was preceded by a big crunch. QWC has the idea that if there was one bang, there could have been many bangs, and if two expanding arenas intersect and overlap, their expansion momentum would be interrupted and a big crunch would form as gravity takes over and causes the galactic material to collapse around a center of gravity. Each new crunch that forms from those overlaps will itself reach a limit of energy density and burst into expansion. Step 2 moves forward from the big crunch idea in step 1. There are 36 reasonable and responsible step by step speculations in step two of Quantum Wave Cosmology that describe the process of “arena action” and show how the force of arena action defeats entropy: 2.1 Arenas begin with the overlap of two expanding arenas that have been expanding in space. A new arena then forms in the space where the overlap occurs and includes the galactic material and energy that occupies that space containing that overlap. 2.2 The “greater universe” is composed of a potentially infinite number of arenas similar to our own that expand and overlap. 2.3 The expansion momentum is interrupted in the overlap space. Gravity takes over and causes the galactic material to collapse around a center of gravity. Arena action begins with the overlap of two arenas and is about what happens to the matter and energy in the overlap space as gravity takes over from expansion. Steps 2.1 – 2.3 represent the first phase of arena action leading to the formation of a big crunch. The second phase of arena action deals with the nature of the big crunch. 2.4 A big crunch is composed of galactic matter, dark matter, electromagnetic radiation, and any other form of energy that exists in an arena that is expanding. Gravity however has replaced dark energy as the controlling force. 2.5 The acceleration of gravity causes heat and pressure within massive objects. 2.6 The arenas that have overlapped to form the big crunch each contained the matter and energy equivalent to a single big crunch and so when they overlap, only half of each parent arena is required to provide the full arena quantum of matter and energy for a new big crunch. 2.7 Galactic matter continues to accrete into the crunch increasing the internal heat and pressure. Heat and pressure translate to increasing energy density in the core of the big crunch. 2.8 There is a maximum energy density at which matter can function. Particles cease to function when that limit is reached. Particles that reach that limit are “negated” from matter to dense state energy. The concept of “dense state” energy is introduced in that step: Dense state energy consists of the energy remnant of particles what have been compressed by heat and pressure inside a big crunch. 2.9 All particles require sufficient space to function and the heat and pressure inside a big crunch deny the particle that required space and the particle ceases to function. 2.10 Gravity is a function of mass and when particles cease to function, gravity ceases to emanate from the negated matter. The core of the big crunch accumulates the negated matter in the form of a growing core of dense state energy. 2.11 Dense state energy is under great pressure and has expansion potential that is contained by the gravity exerted by the matter that surrounds the core and that is continuing to accrete into the big crunch. 2.12 There is a maximum limit to the highest possible energy density and when that limit is reached in the core of negated matter, the heat and pressure are focused at the surface of the growing core. The growing compression no longer affects the core itself which has reached the maximum possible energy density. Steps 2.4 - 2.12 represent the second phase in “arena action” called the high density phase. They bring us to the point where the highest possible energy density has been reached and that marks the point where the failure of the big crunch is assured to result in a big burst. Critical capacity has been assured. That statement introduces the concept of “critical capacity” of a big crunch: critical capacity is an arena quantum of matter and energy and when that capacity is accumulated in the crunch, the crunch has matured and its final stages make up the next phase in “arena action”, i.e. the burst. 2.13 The negated core of the crunch exerts no gravity but the compression that maintains the crunch is still being fed by the accretion disk formed from the matter in the overlap space as it swirls into the crunch. The expansion potential energy is building up in the core of dense state energy and the size of the core is increasing. 2.14 These two processes reach a breaking point because as the core grows, the gravity exerted by the crunch declines, and as the accretion continues that gravity that contains the core is maintained. 2.15 Equilibrium does not occur unless the heat and pressure of the core no longer is capable of negating matter into dense state energy. But the accretion assures the continuing heat and pressure will continue at an accelerating rate since negation is taking place across a larger and large core surface at all times. 2.16 The growing core will decrease gravity faster than accretion can maintain it and at the same time the expansion potential of the dense state energy at the core grows at an increasing rate. 2.17 The crunch fails when the expansion potential of the core exceeds the compression of the surrounding un-negated matter in the big crunch. Steps 2.13 – 2.17 represent the third phase of “arena action”. The big crunch has reached the bursting point. 2.18 The burst occurs. The rapid expansion the extremely dense energy at the core rips through the remaining matter surrounding the core and that action creates enough acceleration and heat to negate the surrounding matter. 2.19 As the expanding ball of dark energy expands, plasma is formed made up of the un-negated particles in the portion of the crunch, the accretion disk surrounding the crunch, and in the common background matter and energy that fills all space. 2.20 As the burst of dense state energy rips through this environment it will cause tiny temperature perturbations in the form of pre-matter plasma in the expanding ball of dense dark energy. Two concepts are introduced in the previous step: The concept of dark energy has been introduced: Dark energy is expanding energy that emerges from the core of a big crunch when the burst in phase three of arena action occurs. The nature of dark energy is described throughout the steps that make up the remaining phases of arena action but it is essentially the cause of expansion momentum. Expansion momentum is imparted to matter as it forms and is transferred to particles and eventually to stars and galaxies as they form. Dark energy translates into the observation that galaxies are all moving away from each other because the tiniest particles that make up the stars and galaxies all had expansion momentum imparted to them as they formed . The concept of pre-matter plasma is meant to distinguish between plasma that forms when matter is energized by increasing acceleration, or increasing heat and pressure and the pre-matter plasma that forms from dark energy as acceleration and heat and pressure are declining from dense state of energy, a form of energy that contains no particles. Steps 2.18 and 2.19 are the “burst” which is the fourth phase of “arena action”. 2.20 The dark energy at this point is too dense for matter to form but is expanding, supposedly at the speed of light. 2.21 Everything it encompasses as it expands has expansion energy imparted to it creating plasma in the surrounding space as the dark energy expands and encompasses the matter and energy surrounding the crunch. 2.22 That plasma now exists within the expanding ball of dark energy and is the source of matter formation as the arena expands and cools. 2.23 There is an energy density reached in this expanding energy environment that is ideal for matter formation and matter forms almost simultaneously across the expanding plasma. 2.23 As matter forms in the expanding arena it has momentum as it forms. The momentum is imparted to it by the expansion of the dark energy and plasma within which it forms. 2.24 At the instant of abundant matter formation all matter is dark matter. The concept of dark matter is introduced in that last step: Dark matter is initially connected in the form of the plasma that forms in the space surrounding the burst. It takes the form of dark matter at the point that the expansion has brought the arena to an energy density that accommodates abundant matter formation. That is when dark matter begins to display its most important characteristic; it exerts gravity. Steps 2.20 – 2.24 represent the fifth phase of “arena action” between the burst and the onset of gravity emitted within the expanding arena. The characteristic of gravity gives rise to action that is taking place starting with this phase of “arena action”. Gravity and mass are characteristics of a process called “quantum action” and the level of order where quantum action occurs comes into existence within an arena when the threshold of abundant matter formation occurs. Quantum action is addressed separately in step three within the set of ideas that make up Quantum Wave Cosmology. Quantum action is ongoing within arenas until overlaps form and until the matter in the overlaps collapses and cause energy density to increase beyond the point where matter can function. The existence of matter throughout the overlap and collapse physically connects each arena to the past history of the greater universe. 2.25 Rapid expansion of this homogeneous ball of plasma causes small patches of dark matter to form. As soon as the patches form they form focus points around their individual centers of gravity. As the patches take shape into individual pre-particle groups there is constant and consistent expansion occurring in the energy environment surrounding them. 2.26 The small groups begin to clump as gravity pulls them toward each other with more force than the expansion force of dark energy is able to overcome. The ball of dark energy has become an expanding ball of dark matter and that dark matter is clumping into pre-particles at an extremely high energy density. This prevailing energy density has declined to the threshold where matter can form as pre-particles. 2.27 The pre-particle patches of dark matter have expansion momentum while they clump together due to their gravity. The result is that the clumps are all moving away from each other but are at the same time attracted to each other by their gravity. 2.28 During this early period of matter formation the force of gravity is greater than the expansion momentum and the dark matter begins to form particles with new characteristics. 2.29 Particles with mass, charge, momentum and spin form and become the particles that are described in the standard particle model. Discussion of the standard particle model is a point of connection between QWC and mainstream science. Much is written on the subject and QWC does not defend any mainstream theory because they are accepted and defended by those who support them. 2.30 As expansion continues and gravity causes larger and larger clumps, stars are formed across the entire arena. These are huge fast burning stars that are short lived but they leave huge temperature perturbations within the arena and those perturbations contain the energy equivalent of whole galaxies. 2.31 Stars from within this environment in much the same way as particles formed in the earlier and denser environment. 2.32 Galaxies form from these perturbations and because of the expansion momentum characteristic of all particles, the galaxies are all moving away from each other. 2.33 The formation of galaxies in the arena occurs after the first round of huge hot stars burn out, explode and create their lasting temperature imprint on the arena. 2.34 The galactic coordinate system of the arena is established and the distance between the galaxies, aside from local groups of galaxies, is increasing. 2.35 The rate of separation of galaxies in the coordinate system is accelerating because the expansion momentum of the galaxies now exceeds the gravitational attraction between galaxies. The acceleration is the observed effect of the inverse square rule as the distance between the galaxies increases. 2.36 All objects move through space in curved paths due to the time delay of gravity. Objects under the influence of gravity always move in curved paths because of the gravitational time delay. The path that objects follow through space is always affected by all other bodies in space, but by the time the information about the mass, location and momentum of the distant objects travel supposedly at the speed of light to the other objects, all of the objects have moved. The result is that the gravitational effect is always pointing behind the objects that are causing the effect. Since all objects are moving, the path of all objects is always curved. Steps 2.25 to 2.36 represent the sixth phase of “arena action” where gravity and expansion moment carryout a struggle for supremacy, and where expansion moment wins until expansion is interrupted in such a way that gravity again gains control. Arena action is a perpetual process that connects each new arena to the history of the entire universe and produces new arenas to carry on the heritage. This brings us full circle to the point where expanding arenas intersect and overlap. Go the step 2.1 which starts at the point where two parent arenas intersect and overlap to give birth to a new arena. 2.1 Arenas begin with the overlap of two expanding arenas that have been expanding in space. A new arena then forms in the space where the overlap occurs and includes the galactic material and energy that occupies that space containing that overlap. Entropy is defeated by the arena process. The detail steps that make up step 2 of the set of ideas called Quantum Wave Cosmology are preceded by high entropy arenas where mature galaxies are all moving away from each other as entropy increases. If nothing happens to interrupt the expansion or to reverse the progress of entropy, the end result will be “heat death” as all useful energy is consumed. But in step 2.1 that interruption occurs and as you follow the step by step speculations on through step 2.20 you are introduced to the process of reverse entropy. The burst of the big crunch is the lowest entropy environment in QWC and presents an arena now consisting entirely of useful energy where entropy is just beginning. Energy cannot be created or destroyed but matter can form from energy and the energy that makes up that matter can be negated back into useful energy according to the step by step speculations of QWC. The idea is that the events leading to a big crunch and burst are common events across the landscape of the greater universe. One clue to them being common is that they occur with the input of a finite amount of matter and energy, an “arena quantum”. Since it takes two parent arenas to form a new arena, there must be more that one “arena quantum” of energy. Since the two parents themselves had to have formed from two separate arenas each, there is a history of four arenas and four “arena quanta” of energy, and so on leading to the concept of a potentially infinite number of finite arenas across potentially infinite space.

This thread takes us back to the drawing board on QWC. The "Casual Question" thread introduced Quantum Wave Cosmology and explained that it had evolved over a few years in various forums. The purpose of the "Casual Question" thread was to see if it was appropriate to present the ideas of QWC on this forum. It turned out that this was the right place, but that thread got into advanced ideas without building up to them. The community generally didn't get engaged into a discussion of the ideas until I mentioned photon mass and that cause members to explain current theory and make reference to gauge theory, particle theory, etc. from the stand point that photon mass went against what we think we know about photons and that photons don't need to have mass because they act exactly like they would if they were affected by the curvature of spacetime. I decided to go back to step one here and see if anyone would participate, and even if you don't, you will see the ideas as they have unfolded over the years in various forums where brainstorming and discussion of ideas has been taking place. The very beginning of the ideas of Quantum Wave Cosmology The key ideas in step one and step two: The standard model begins at 10^-43 seconds after expansion of our observable universe began. There is no mention of what was before that. QWC is about ideas of what might of have been before that. Idea one is that the event that caused the expansion that we observe had its origin in a big crunch. Idea two is about the greater universe that surrounded that big crunch. Standard theory doesn’t address the volume or energy of the space from which our expanding universe emerged but certainly the implied size was from “smaller than a bread box” to a point in space, and the energy was at or approaching infinite density. QWC has the idea that there was existing space and energy prior to the event, and that the greater universe that existed is of a nature that makes the described event a common event in the landscape of the greater universe instead of a single event that marked the beginning of space-time. QWC has the idea that there is a limit to the maximum possible energy density. QWC has the idea that matter requires space (sufficient space) to function and that when matter is compressed toward maximum energy density that matter is negated into energy. QWC has the idea that matter ceases to function when it is negated. QWC has the idea that gravity is a function of mass, and when matter ceases to function there are no functioning particles or waves and gravity ceases. I would like comments about these ideas or related ideas that address the time of and immediately before the point where standard theory begins. Obviously this is not a scientific discussion, just a discussion of the possibilities. Do you think there was a “before” the Big Bang? Do you think that the idea that the Big Bang was preceded by a big crunch has much merit? Do you think there is a direct connection between mass and gravity? The gist of the view offered so far in my "Casual Question" thread in this forum is that it is irrelevant to talk about these things or we can’t know or don’t yet know, etc. I’m looking for people who have the personal make up that allows discussion of reasonable and responsible views about “before” the Big Bang. The basis of QWC is that science has limits but the physical universe is all there, complete, and consistent. Everything works together and everything is connected. Going back in the QWC process will give everyone a chance to reshape it through participation or at least to understand what it is and what the ideas are as they evolved to where they stand now. QWC is a physical picture being drawn step by step on the internet in various forums where ideas are offered, discussed, and evolved. These are “bottom up” ideas referred to as “reasonable and responsible speculation” and are not based on new observations or experiments. Existing science is accepted as the best we can do with the tools we have to work with, but QWC is a set of ideas of the physical picture of the universe starting where science ends and cannot yet go. The big crunch is just one of the possible scenarios of what preceded the initial expansion of our universe. It is “idea one” in QWC but everything in QWC is tentative and open to revision. Come up with a better scenario and we will discuss it here. Until then, the idea is that there was a big crunch that burst in a time frame consistent with the 13.7 billion year history of our expanding universe. Of course it is easy to go from step one to the next question. “OK, so our expanding universe was encompassed in a big crunch 13 or 14 billion years ago. How did it get out of the crunch and into expansion?” And that is where the brainstorming went next; there was an event that corresponds to the Big Bang and if that event was preceded by a big crunch, the crunch was the source of our expanding universe. What caused the emergence? What exactly emerged, energy, particles, waves? What were the conditions at that time of the burst, hot, warm, cold, explosion, burst of energy, etc.? All of these ideas have been brainstormed in the past and QWC is the consensus of participants, sometimes by agreement and sometimes by my own selection. The more participation there is as QWC evolves, the better the evolved product. Are there any comments on this post or about any of the early QWC ideas listed here? ~QWC has the idea that there was existing space and energy prior to the event (burst of a big crunch), and that the greater universe that existed is of a nature that makes the described event a common event in the landscape of the greater universe instead of a single event that marked the beginning of space-time. ~QWC has the idea that there is a limit to the maximum possible energy density. ~QWC has the idea that matter requires space (sufficient space) to function and that when matter is compressed toward maximum energy density that matter is negated into energy. ~QWC has the idea that matter ceases to function when it is negated. ~QWC has the idea that gravity is a function of mass, and when matter ceases to function there are no functioning particles or waves and gravity ceases. All of these ideas have explanations that describe them in the context of a physical picture. Please respond early and often to this post and subsequent posts in this thread and make your comments, observations, and ideas known now or soon after they come to mind. If you don’t do that then this thread will go beyond where you are comfortable for discussions to go, and you won’t have even have raised a single objection. Please avoid the common misconception that QWC is about known science theory or that it tries to tell scientist anything that they don't know. That brings me to QWC Rule #1: Please remember that ideas in QWC are about things that happen at levels of order that we cannot yet observe and therefore are not addressed by mainstream science to any remarkable degree. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedLet me explain the steps and address your questions that way. These are just ideas for discussion about the concept of a greater universe. The concept of a “greater universe” is derived from the concept that a big crunch preceded the initial expansion of our observable universe. There are various scenarios about how a big crunch could form. The method of formation was brainstormed with individuals and on the internet several years ago. Indications that expansion is accelerating were considered signs that unless something occurred to interrupt the expansion, the final outcome would be the heat death of the universe as entropy increased. The reason for expecting that there is more to the universe than our lone expanding arena is based on the idea that energy cannot be created or destroyed, and so all energy has always existed. Over endless time it was concluded that if the final outcome of the universe was the “heat death” scenario, it would have happened already. Since it hasn’t happened the reasonable and responsible conclusion was that something interrupts the expansion of arenas and leads to the formation of new arenas. What could interrupt the expansion of our observable universe? An intersection and overlap with another expanding universe was suggested and that idea leads to the concept of the “greater universe” and the formation of big crunches from the overlap of intersecting arenas. My reference to existing space and energy means that the big bang was not the beginning of space and time. Within that space that has always existed, big crunches and bursts are common events. The commonality of crunches introduces the concept of a greater universe and is not meant to lead you to think of the concept of a cyclical LQC ( Loop Quantum Cosmology) type of universe. Instead it is a multi verse where each arena is similar to our expanding universe, but the arenas are in various stages of expansion, overlap, or collapse. The greater universe is an important concept because it demotes our entire expanding “universe” to an insignificant arena in the arena landscape of a greater universe. We live in an insignificant expanding arena in a greater universe that has always existed and has always been characterized by a landscape where arenas form here and there across space and time in response to an “arena process”. There is a history of a potentially infinite number of different arenas that each began from overlaps of preceding arenas, formed into big crunches and then burst into expanding arenas in their own right in accord with that process. Our expanding observable universe is a single arena, and all arenas are similar due to the process that causes arenas to form and burst into expansion. There are multiple but similar arenas in various stages of expansion and overlap at any time across the landscape of the greater universe. The greater universe is good ole fashioned 3-D Euclidean space that extends endlessly in all directions. Arenas don’t collapse into big crunches in a cyclical fashion; they expand and overlap with each other. Picture our expanding “universe” encountering a similar expanding universe and envision them overlapping as they continue to expand. The overlaps that are occurring all over in this landscape of the greater universe mark the origin of future big crunches. The effect of overlapping arenas interrupts the expansion momentum of each of the arena segments that are caught up in the overlap. In the overlap, with expansion interrupted, gravity takes control over the mixing and mingling galaxies that find themselves in swirling rendezvous with each other as the two expanding arenas intersect. A new center of gravity forms at the center of the overlap space and eventually the galactic matter from the overlap of two arenas collapses into a big crunch composed of galactic remnants from the two contributing arenas. This is similar to the formation of a black hole accept it is on a much grander scale. Whole galaxies swirl into the big crunch by the billions perhaps over a period of billions, maybe trillions of years, but the time frame is impossible to quantify since we can’t even see the entirety of our own arena. The cyclic crunch bang you might have thought of (maybe like LQC) is flawed IMHO because each cycle fails to retrieve all of the energy from the previous bounce and eventually fails to have enough recalled matter and energy to cause the next bounce, resulting in a final impotent crunch. That concept pales in comparison to the arena process in the endless vastness of QWC. The bounce concept does come into play at the quantum level in QWC but let's get the arena level into your physical picture before we go to the quantum level. Can you form a physical picture from what I have described? I'd like you to think about it for awhile and not reject it until I have gotten to the juicy part related to the concept of energy density; that is the key to the concept of what makes a big crunch burst into an expanding arena. Do at least come back and comment on this post if you would. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedHere is a response to my last post and my response to it from another forum: From the above did I explain it adequately to give you the picture of how arenas occupy space and how they can intersect and overlap in space? The concept of how far they are away from each other is interesting. They all form in the same way and burst into expansion at the same rate of expansion, and therefore they always have a physical association with other arenas. But the distance that they are apart ... that depends on the length of time that they have been expanding from the location in space where they originated. An arena can burst and expand for a short time and then intersect another expanding arena making the distance between them equal to the time of that expansion. The distance from the location of the origins of two intersecting arenas can be measured as the sum of length of time that each arena has been expanding. The idea is that the expansion profile of each arena is quite similar. As a note, since we have evidence that our arena expansion is accelerating the idea in QWC is that the profile of expansion of an arena includes acceleration over time, perhaps explained by the varying forces of expansion momentum and gravity. Yes I have over the years, and what we know and new things we are always finding out about our “arena” are fascinating. Do you make the connection between the great attractor and all of the identified content within our arena vs. the possible physical nature of all arenas on the basis that the history of each individual arena has a great deal of commonality? In other words can you envision a physical picture of the greater universe made up of a potentially infinite number of dynamic arenas that can expand and overlap? I am not saying do you believe that picture . What I’m saying is that is the picture that I want to convey for discussion. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged Hi guest' date=' yes there are. As you may have noticed I get reamed a new hiney by the "our mutual friend" types because they say I can’t “Do Science”, so by even mentioning something that the QWC ideas could possibly resolve just brings on a new onslaught. I hope they attack me often because it always inspires me not to quit. Here are a few phenomena that apply to these beginning steps: The cause of the Big Bang The justification for the idea that a big crunch preceded the big bang, i.e. the way big crunches form The existence of the greater universe and its role in the perpetual formation and potentially infinite expansion of each arena The eternal history of the arena landscape of the greater universe that is characterized by the “arena process” that I plan to explain when I have answered your question[s'] The defeat of entropy which will be explained when I have explained the arena process #2 two is a statement about the distribution of matter throughout the greater universe if I read it right, followed by a question about the relationship between the formation of the big crunch and the nature of the material that makes up the crunch. If that is a fair test of my understanding of your comment and question, then: First, you are right that after a reasonable finite time there would be a fairly consistent background of arena remnants distributed quite evenly across the entire greater universe. But the way I view that is that the background that you are envisioning has always been characteristic of the background distribution because the greater universe has always existed and has always been homogeneous and isotropic on a grand scale. It is the QWC equivalent to the cosmic microwave background and dark matter but for me to even say that invokes mainstream theories that I don’t defend. I do defend the ideas of QWC to the extent that I can answer questions, enter into discussions, and make revisions to QWC as a result. In QWC, the background exists everywhere and yet the arena process is undaunted because it controls the formation and negation of matter. Matter is negated when it enters a big crunch. And in QWC, when a big crunch bursts into expansion there is a period of matter formation that follows shortly thereafter. That newly formed matter forms from the expanding ball of energy as the arena wave of energy spreads through the background. There has been some interesting brainstorming done about the constituents of the energy density environment during the matter formation stage of the arena process (arena action). I cannot quantify the time frames when matter formation takes place, but the radius of the expanding ball of dark energy that emerges from a big crunch is always similar when the energy density of the expanding arena reaches the energy density that accommodates matter formation. If we know that radius, and if we know the rate of expansion profile, we would know the length of time that passes from the burst to the formation of matter within the newly expanding arena. Both the negation of matter in a big crunch and the formation of matter during the early expansion of a big burst are controlled by energy density. Matter must be compressed by heat and pressure in a crunch to become negated into dense state energy and that occurs between the boundary of the high energy density limit in which matter can function, and the ultimate boundary of the maximum energy density possible. Take your time. If I post some things before you get back to it, I will always be able to come back here to where we left off. Be sure to come back to this point though if you have questions up to this point, because if I post more steps from here and if you jump over some of the steps you will not have the full development of QWC in a step by step bottom up process of reasonable and responsible speculation. That has been the reason why our mutual friends and a long line of others have seemed to have only a surface level of understanding. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged

This thread got off to a bad start because in the OP I was checking to see if I would be allowed to post speculative ideas, and after several responses, and several examples of what I meant by speculative ideas, the discussion just evolved. I had intended to start from the beginning, offer the ideas in a step by step fashion, and ask for input to get rid of ideas that were wrong and especially that weren’t even wrong. Skeptic at first seemed interested and so I posted more but never started with step one. A cosmology by definition covers a lot of subjects but instead of presenting it step by step I ended up on some of the more exotic ideas like photon mass without ever giving what I call reasonable and responsible explanations for the very earliest steps of speculation. Well photon mass seemed to be the idea that disturbed people and I got into a couple of discussions about that before I accidentally attached someone’s character. It was not intentional and since I have been building QWC with input from several forums and many threads over a period of years I hate to leave the impression that I would be the one to initiate character attacks. Over thousands of posts until this thread, I was always the one who’s character was attacked and so for me to initiate an attack is completely out of character. Knowing how quickly character attacks can bring a thread down, I immediately closed out the final response on photon mass and said I thought everyone had offered good points, and that I should go back to the drawing board. I would like to start a new thread and go more to the beginning of how QWC has been put together, discussion the early steps, get feedback as I go. That, to me, is going back to the drawing board and starting from the beginning. I promise never to attack anyone’s character intentionally. Would that be OK with the moderators?

I saw your other thread where you asked about the structure of the photon that you posted in another forum, and that was moved and closed. In our brief message exchange I suggested that you start a new thread and mention some of your ideas, to which I offered to respond, and where I offered to give you my ideas. I had no idea that you ideas would be so ... different. I was thinking about the energy in a photon, and how the energy varies in discrete steps to make up the electromagnetic spectrum. I was hoping to exchange ideas and talk about differences between our views, but I find your ideas so alternative that our respective alternative ideas don't seem to have any common ground that I can see .

Hello Victor2009 and welcome to the Speculations forum. I always try to encourage alternative thinking if there is a connection to the mainstream and if the resulting speculations have an internal consistency that is better than the consistency of the various mainstream theories that it is a departure from. One interesting point of White Hole theory has to do with the formation of a big crunch within which a core of extremely high energy density forms. It is that high energy density core that sparks the white holes. The problem is that the expansion of the White Hole is into new dimensions that don't exist within the core of the black hole. That adds a whole new realm of physics in new dimensions that seems totally disconnected from any departure point in mainstream theory, i.e. there seems to be no way to connect the physics of the white holes to the physics of the black holes if it takes new dimensions in order for the white holes to exist. Of course I have very little understanding of your theory or of White Hole Theory so take these comments for what they are worth.

I didn’t see your reply until I was reviewing what has been contributed by this community so I could go back to the drawing board on my Quantum Wave Cosmology (QWC) and update the ideas based on that input. I gave you that link and asked you to look at it because I wanted to leave the door open for you to talk with me about it. Here is what I found notable that pertained to our brief discussion about photon mass: The article spoke of “Y” value. “Y” value is the difference between Newtonian gravity and Spacetime in regard to the predicted and observed deflection of photons as they pass the sun from distant stars. Spacetime has a "Y" value of 1 and Newtonian has a "Y" value of 0. We, or at least I had mentioned that in QWC (my ideas about cosmology) the photon has a tiny mass, accounting for how it would be deflected by the sun if spacetime wasn’t doing it.I mentioned that I was interested in knowing what mass the photon would have to have to match the deflection observed during the eclipse, and that I had asked for help in calculation that tiny mass without any success. One interesting point about the link I gave you is that they had to have calculated that Newtonian mass in order to establish the “Y” scales since the “Y” value is determined by the difference between Newtonian and Spacetime predictions. All that I would have to do is calculate the mass using QWC gravity. You mentioned that if mass and gravity were caused by the ideas of QWC, then calculated deflection due to QWC gravity would have to match the predicted and observed deflection due to spacetime since spacetime and the real measurements were the same. At the same time I pointed out that the environment causing the effect that we observe is different in QWC than in either Newtonian or Spacetime gravity, but I agreed that the predictions of QWC gravity would have to match the observed results. Just to mention how QWC gravity differs from Spacetime and Newtonian, QWC gravity is imprinted in the aether by constantly repeating quantum waves that are emanated by mass. The waves have a net negative energy relative to the average energy density of the universe while mass always has a net positive energy density relative to the average energy density of the universe. The average energy density of the universe is a huge positive figure meaning that the universe is composed of energy. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed in QWC (and mainstreams science), all of the energy has always existed, i.e. there was no “beginning” of energy, only beginnings of arenas where the perfect symmetry between negative and positive energy has a common history originating from a big bang type of event. That simply means that the positive energy of a single big crunch and the negative energy of the aether surrounding that big crunch before the burst of a crunch into expansion has a net zero deviation from the average energy density of the universe. The mass of a crunch and burst has positive energy and the negative energy of the aether surrounding the crunch and burst exactly off sets the positive energy of the crunch and burst. The imprinted history that mass leaves in the aether is caused by the constant emanations of negative energy from the mass into the aether. Each quantum wave and the net of all of the single tiny quantum waves from within mass expand infinitely as they travel spherically away from their mass. Any point in space has energy density determined by the emanations of mass from across the universe if their emanations have expanded sufficiently to reach that point. Mass moves through the aether in the path of lowest energy density if you look at it from the perspective that mass is high energy density and the emanations from mass are low energy density. The larger mass causes a lower energy density emanation and a lower density imprint on the aether. Applying QWC gravity to the photon, we agree, would have to match spacetime gravity instead of Newtonian gravity. Here are some considerations: The QWC gravity emanations from mass supposedly travel away from mass at the speed of light relative to the reference frame of the mass. It gets complicated for me because photons are travelling at the speed of light relative to the observer in any reference frame (special relativity). Gravity emanating at the speed of light from a photon travelling at the speed of light means that the gravity from the photon is cancelled in the direction that the photon is travelling, leaving the effect of the suns gravity on the photon to be felt by the photon, but the effect of the photons gravity would not be felt by the sun until the photon reached and passed the sun. I have to figure out how to express that mathematically in order to make a prediction of what the deflection would be of a photon passing the sun from a distant star in terms of QWC gravity. I haven’t been able to figure it out mathematically yet. One more point about the photon’s mass in QWC. The photon emitted from an electron would have to be different from the quantum waves emitted from mass. We are not talking about photons being the same as quantum waves or being emitted in the same way that quantum waves are emanated from mass. The quantum waves have no mass, only a quantum or less of energy expanding spherically from mass to create the aether. But on the other hand, when a photon is emitted, there is a discrete amount of energy contained in the photon and that energy is equivalent to the energy lost by the electron as the electron changes position in the orbital. So we have a photon emitted from an electron at the speed of light. In QWC, the energy of that photon consists of energy in quantum increments and the number of quantum increments corresponds with the photon’s energy, i.e. the photon is an organized particle of mass within which quantum action is taking place constantly every quantum period (every instant) as the photon travels at the speed of light relative to any observer in any frame. How do I calculate the mass of that photon under those conditions? Knowing the mass of photons of differing energies would certainly help with the task of quantifying the amount of energy in a QWC energy quantum. Hence, back to the drawing board.

That is true. And a good point that my gravitational effects must be the same as what we observe, no getting around that. But I can't see the theory in it yet. Your level headed approach is a big help. I'm just thinking of the Higgs Particle and Spacetime and that the popular media has suggested that GR breaks down in the Planck regime. Thank you for that input. I'll get the Wiki version of quage theory for a start at getting more familiar, and I wanted talk like this from the start as I think about the ideas. I'm not selling anything, have no theory though by your definition you can call it that but I don't. Deep in my pea brain there is something about the gravity aether business and how the aether is connected in a process that accounts for both mass and gravity. It is nothing at this point except a subject for conversation. I don't make it out to be more. When you put it that way I understand what you mean. You are right, it is hard to let it go. I see your point about having a lot of work to do to make it make any sense. I agree that an alternative theory has to comply with the facts, though I still can't look at my ideas as theory. This you will agree with; my ideas are far from being formalized enough to be called theory. I'm repeating myself but this is the kind of converstation I came here for. Our exchange has not been the norm in my experience, thanks. Again, good points. Maybe my biggest learning here is get a better formalization of the key ideas. I know too that I should stop talking about my desire to have a single scenario that is internally consistent and that has a common cause for mass, gravity and initial expansion. That thinking can only lead to trouble if it is talked about in the wrong forum. I guess there is too much philosophy there and no science unless we let "raw" ideas qualify until discussed, like we have here. All good points. Forgive me for the character attack if that is how you looked at it. From what I take away from this thread, I know that I am the one with the learning to do if I want to discuss this any further here. Well, back to the drawing board .

Well, thank you? But I am thinking alternatives to mainstream here. I am familiar with what you say about the mass of the photon from the mainstream perspective. There are some extenuating differences between the physical environments where the testing that you refer to has taken place and where I am thinking tiny mass. Those differences make your answer seem right to you and wrong to me. Do you know what I have been saying is different in the set of ideas I am talking about and in the environment, and why I even am looking at alternatives? I would like to restate that the mainstream answers to the cause of mass and gravity are not connected, and they deal with theories that aren’t compatible. I am not satisfied by that and would like to consider ideas that show a connection between mass and gravity for example. I’m old and a long time ago I started asking questions and looking at what the answers were from a mainstream perspective. The source of mass in our universe according to Higgs theory is a very massive particle that decays into fundamental particles that we recognize (over simplified but I am not teaching you about HT, just acknowledging it). Big money and many reputations are at stake with the performance of the LHC as everyone agrees. If we can’t find the Higgs mechanism, then does that make us rethink the source of mass? You can probably tell that I am anticipating that we don’t find it, but to mainstream that is like playing “don’t pass” in craps. Do you even consider it possible that there is a realm where physical phenomena occur that affect the lowest level that we can detect? And if there was such a level do you consider that it would negate much of what we think we know. Science is tentative, and science must connect things that seem to be connected if it can. Current views on the cause of mass (Higgs) and the cause of gravity (spacetime) are not connected and are not even completely compatible. Do you see that as a concern that maybe there is more to learn? Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedI have reread your post and my reply. I know you won’t be satisfied and I am sorry. I understand why we are not able to communicate, and I don’t like it any more than you do. No need to try to get you to look at these ideas any further is there? You display the expected mainstream attitude which is not a criticism, but an observation. You think I am wasting everyone’s time, while I think that if you are satisfied with the mainstream thinking and are not open to alternative thinking, then you are wasting my time just as much as I am yours. It will come. Let me ask you if you think that the physical picture that I have described (we are both wasting each other’s time if you have no clue what I mean by the physical picture) can be quantified, since that is what you are asking for? What do you think the amount of an energy quantum is in the realm that I am trying to discuss? Just for perspective, if an electron has a half a billion quanta, it would be a tiny amount of energy. If that was true, do you think that it would have an impact on the math of existing theory? What kind of impact? You don’t know any more than I do about how things would change except that we both know it would change everything. Science has to always be looked at as tentative. Do you at least agree with that? I am off the charts as far as you are concerned when it comes to the scale where I am talking about quantization taking place. If you deal with me by giving me mainstream answers, you are happy, you are satisfied because you have given me the chance of say, “OMG, I didn’t know what the mainstream says about mass and gravity, forget all my ideas”. At the same time I am saying, “There goes another satisfied mainstream customer.” Remember, I am not satisfied with mainstream; I know the scientific method and am applying it. You are certain I am a crank, while I am certain that it does no harm to the mainstream to suggest that there really are as yet undetected levels of order in physics. If ideas about a lower level yield the most far fetched ideas, but there is some reason to pursue them because they are internally consistent (you may have no clue what I mean) and show a way that mass and gravity could be connected, then I want the idea explored. We cannot yet detect any such level of order so either I drop it in the face of your flat rejection from a mainstream perspective that I am already well aware of, or you deal with ideas that suggest a flawed mainstream. If you go your way, you have to find the Higgs or go fish, and you have to ignore the shortcomings of GR and spacetime. The curvature of spacetime is a mathematical representation of the geometry of space and time. Though the correspondence to the physical space and time accurately predicts the movement of mass through space, there is nothing in spacetime that says how mass, energy, space and time are physically connected into curved spacetime. GR is a wonderful mathematical construct of a 4-D coordinate system but it is incomplete in telling us how mass and energy physically curves spacetime. I am probably going to look for ideas of how it is possible to couple mass and gravity instead of accepting that a mathematical construct can affect the physical universe. You probably believe that spacetime are coupled and that there is true correspondence between physical world and the 4-D geometry of spacetime, and I probably believe that it is possible that we just haven’t arrived at the consistency between mass and gravity that should be expected. True from the mainstream perspective but like I say, it is not theory so can you acknowledge that there can be ideas before they either are confirmed or quantified? You want the cart before the horse so to speak. The scientific method has to start with ideas. If the ideas are pertinent to a completely different set of circumstances, the known data from the wrong environment doesn’t apply. Do you understand that my view is alien to yours, and I know yours much better than you know mine? You can disqualify my ideas from your perspective with data that is non-responsive to the circumstances I am describing, but can you think alternatively if the goal is to advance science. Do you see the connection that my ideas make between mass and gravity? If so, just say what you think that connection is. Maybe I haven’t been clear about it. If that simple cause and effect could be achieved by quantization at a level we cannot yet detect, how would you set out to test it. What data would you turn to that applies I wonder? Like I was saying, the gravitational effects as described by the EFEs are adequate but the physical description of the cause of those effects gives me pause. Are you satisfied with how GR says mass curves spacetime? Can you explain it to me so I can realize how the answers were right there in the mainstream all along and I just miss it? Don’t worry about that rhetorical question, I know you can’t. Now wait. I don’t think you are telling me that the measures of the Planck regime are measures of a quantum increment of energy. They are measures of various aspects of the smallest realm that can be addressed in science, and that are helpful to use to do the math. But there isn’t actually a physical quantum of anything that is described by the Planck constants. Measures of the physical aspects that each Planck measure is used to describe, true, but a real identifiable entity, I don’t think so. As was discussed a couple of posts back, no one is disputing equivalence. But if you think that E = mc^2 is explicit enough to addresses a precise unit of energy of which all mass is composed, then again, I missed that in the mainstream science. I am aware btw of the Standard Particle Model of particle theory and it addresses fundamental particles and forces. You aren’t saying that there is a common increment of energy common to all particles with mass, I’m sure. I am talking about the idea that there is such an energy increment and an associated force that connects the cause of mass and the cause of gravity. Here is a case of you wanting to rush away from what I am trying to talk about by not pointing out where I was being contradictory. Did you for an instant think that you understood what I was saying well enough to see a contradiction? If so, why not say, “Hey biav, you said this and it sounds contradictory, can you explain why it isn’t contradictory?” What mass? Did you miss where I said there is no quantification of the energy quantum, and there is no way to say what the mass of a photon is in an environment that has different parameters than the environment used by mainstream to address to possibility of photon mass? Did you really say, “give me a precise number”? So you think by now, if I have been looking at the ideas for awhile, I should be able to have postulates, hypotheses, valid tests, test results and quantification? I am dragging my feet then. You have not solved the problems of what causes mass, gravity and the initial expansion of the universe. If the answers could be given by the mainstream theories that you are saying falsify my ideas, I would have had the answers long ago. You show no interest in my ideas. They start from the departure points where mainstream theories stop. The cause of mass? Will the LHC find the Higgs particle or even remnants of the decay which would show the Higgs mechanism? I don’t think there is a Higgs, so if a few years from now the data do not confirm the source of mass, maybe then mainstream thinkers will have to take another look. If the Higgs is confirmed then QWC is falsified. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged Check this out. http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/01/light-deflection-at-sun.html

Are we just talking now or are you expecting equations and quantification? You are right, I do know about the predictions of the deflection of light around the sun from distant stars, and about the detection of deflection during the total eclipse. If I think my ideas might provide an alternative to curved spacetime I would have to already have addressed this subject since I have been building my ideas over several years on various forums. I used to call it the Infinite Spongy Universe, and the operative particle was a pulsing elemental energy particle (EEP). That endeavor developed into Quantum Wave Cosmology with its quantum action in place of the EEP. To answer your question about how I account for the deflection in my ideas if I don’t attribute it to curved spacetime, my idea is that photons have a tiny amount of mass. That would mean in QWC that they feel gravity. But since they travel at the speed of light, and I suppose that quantum waves from mass expand spherically at the speed of light, the gravitational effect of light passing the sun differs from the movement of non-relativistic particles and objects. I don’t have equations for this but I believe that the idea could be put into mathematical terms but not by me. I even asked for help doing that on one thread in another forum but no luck. You have referred to my posts as theory and as you may note I have never called it theory, only ideas, and I tell each person who reads it as theory that it is not. It is ideas for discussion and that is exactly how I view your response. I feel like we are discussing ideas that go against the mainstream. I am a lone individual with no credentials, no formal higher math training, and nothing other than five or six years of searching popular web sites, media science, etc., a Wikipedia type of understanding that would make it nonsense if I thought I could do theory. My way of learning is to test my ideas in the cauldron of the forums, learn and revise, and keep an updated version of my personal cosmology; a laughable cosmology to anyone else but I was an accountant and my way of growing my understanding is to document it and update it as it changes from input over the forums. If I had it crafted into a theory I would have to either do a better job of predicting gravitational effects, or it would have to better explain the connection between gravity and mass. If I am not mistaken, GR and the EFEs translated mass into a 4-D coordinate system where time is considered a series of events attributed to the movement of mass. Spacetime involves the correspondence between the physical mass, physical space and the passing of time, and mathematical construct of the 4-D coordinate system. Amateurish explanation for sure, but it makes spacetime a mathematical construct that is supposed to be able to stand in for the physical universe in the EFEs. I don't portray these ideas as theory, but to my understanding, it there was some theory that exactly duplicated the predictions of GR, and also made better connections between gravity and mass by explaining the cause of mass, then that theory would be better. The idea I am using is that mass is composed of energy in quantum increments. Those quantum increments are all equal in the amount of energy they contain, i.e. they are quantum, but the quantity of energy in a quantum cannot be determined with our current technology. Only wild ass guesses are available and no one will claim they are very close (say a half a billion quanta in an electron). Quantization of energy in these unknown increments is part of the ideas because it allows mass and energy to be equivalent, it allows for a gatekeeper process for energy that goes into and out of mass, i.e. all changes to mass occur in quantum increments that are almost unimaginable tiny and cannot be observed with our current tools. The process of quantization is described as a natural process that involves various phases. The phase that causes the presence of mass to be maintained is the high density spot phase. The spot is the result of the precipitous collapse of space occupied by a quantum of energy that accumulates in the overlap of intersecting quantum waves. The quantum waves are also a product of quantum action because the compressed high density spot that forms from the collapse cannot be sustained by the surrounding energy density and the collapse turns into a bounce off of the maximum possible level of energy density that nature allows. The bounce sends the quantum of energy into spherical expansion as a quantum wave. This process is ongoing within mass and every time the quanta in the entire mass have been refreshed by the formation of a new set of high density spots, the mass has moved slightly. The movement of the mass is a combination of the momentum of the mass, and the lowest energy density path through the aether. Aether does not have mass but is composed of quantum waves emanating from mass. The aether is made up from the quantum waves that are generated by quantum action within mass. The waves that emerge from the bounce of the high density spots and bounce into spherical expansion, pass through the mass and out into the aether. As they pass through mass they encounter other quantum actions in their path and so some the the quantum of energy in the wave is delayed and gets contained in other high density spots. Of course those spots burst into expansion so ultimately all of the energy that it takes to form one complete set of high density spots eventually (there is a slight time delay) makes its way into the aether. By the time that all of the energy in one set of spots is finally emanated, energy has been pulled into the mass as a result of the pull of the void of space created during the collapse of each energy quantum. during quantum action. So during one complete quantum period, the exact amount of energy that has been emanated into the aether equals the amount of energy that has been pulled into the mass from the aether. The time delay is directly related to the mass of the object. It is a pumping action where the energy of the mass is continually refreshed, and as it is refreshed, the new location of each of the high density spots equates to motion of the mass. From the perspective of the aether, the mass is emanating “negative” energy density in exact proportion to the positive energy required to maintain the mass via the high density spots, one for each quantum of energy in the mass. Negative and positive energy are relative terms and relate to a deviation from the average energy density of space counting both the aether and the mass. The emanation from mass into the aether is a continual emanation for every quantum period (every instant) and the same amount of energy is pulled into the mass from the aether as is emanated. The energy pulled in comes from distant mass and arrives in the form of expanding quantum waves that were emanated from mass throughout the entire universe for the entire past history of mass. As the emanation of a particular mass enters the aether, it is an expanding corridor of negative energy density expanding at supposedly the speed of light so the emanation leaves a history of the movement and mass of the object. Every point in space includes the expanded corridor of every mass whose corridor has expanded to that point in space. So you can see that the energy density arriving at and thus surrounding a given mass has different energy density at all points around the mass. The ideas is that the surrounding energy density has a low energy density point and the movement of the mass is influenced toward that point. That is a brief description of the aether in QWC. It might not sound responsive to you but the idea is that there is no friction between anything with mass and the aether. The mass does not move through the aether. The aether determines the path that mass moves by exposing the mass to a varying energy density in all directions and the mass tends toward the low energy density path by pulling in aether. The idea as to the mechanics is that the aether is lower density in one path and so the mass moves that way to satisfy its attempt to an pull equal amounts of aether from every direction. If the rocket has mass, it is pulling in aether and emanating aether as it moves. There is no vacuum if you mean the absence of aether. The movement of a rocket is influenced by the motion of the rocket, the path of lowest energy density, and by the propulsion added. The low energy density path is so insignificant in the face of any other force, that it can be dropped for all intents and purposes. And the energy density would not be the same throughout a general area though that would have very little impact on your example. The energy density is different at every point in space because the history of the movement of all mass gives each point its own individual energy density and the energy density is constantly fluctuating as the quantum waves from all mass course through it. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedJust a few amendments to that last post: Though the EFEs are the best mankind can do to predict the motion of objects in space, the reason they do what they do according to General Relativity is that mass curves spacetime. But GR is a mathematical representation of geometry of space and time, and corresponds to the physical space and time. There is nothing in spacetime that says how the physical mass, energy, space and time are physically connected into curved spacetime. GR is a wonderful mathematical construct of a 4-D coordinate system but it is incomplete in telling us how mass and energy curve spacetime. QWC is ideas about the physical cause of gravity. It concludes that objects under the influence of gravity always move in curve paths because of the gravitational time delay. The path that objects follow through space is always affected by all other bodies in space, but by the time the information about the mass, location and momentum of the distant objects travels at the speed of light to the other objects, all of the objects have moved. The result is that the gravitational effect is always pointing behind the objects that are causing the effect. Since all objects are moving, the path of all objects is always curved. Another note is that in QWC, mass has gravity, but aether takes the form of energy in space and has no mass. This is different than in GR where both mass and energy have gravity. But in GR there is no aether so the difference is not easy to quantify. The presence of mass requires quantum action to be taking in place to quantize the energy. The process of quantization is called “quantum action” and is a six phase process that includes a phase where a quantum of energy collapses into a high density spot in space. Mass is caused by those high density spots, and the spots very rarely form in aether space, only within mass (an exception is that dark matter has enough energy density to maintain ongoing quantum action). Formation of the high density spot requires the high energy density of mass in order to form and for the process of quantum action to maintain their repetition. Each repetition of quantum action generates new high density spots that again represent the presence of mass. In QWC, dark matter is quantized mass that has not been incorporated into the known and detectable fundamental particles. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedQWC ideas vs. theory Two members have recently approached their discussion of my ideas from the perspective that I have a theory here, and then they request the predictions, means of testing and/or quantification, and suggest that QWC is a good example of pseudoscience. Maybe QWC could be put in terms of theory and falsified, thus resolving the issue. There are a couple of predictions that might be tested by the LHC. I’m not really ready to claim any theory here but I am interested in moving forward in two areas. First, the math of QWC will be alien to the math of mainstream theories in the respect that the energy of particles with mass is composed of quantum energy increments, the force of quantum action is necessary to maintain the presence of mass, and the extreme energy density of a big crunch negates mass into dense state energy that has no mass and does not emanate nor does it feel gravity. If the physical description of QWC is falsified by inconsistent physical phenomena that it describes, that would end it. I don’t know how the EFEs work but I plan to find someone who does and who will talk freely with me about the differences between the EFEs and the math that would accrue from the physical picture that I describe of the motion of objects in the gravity aether of QWC. Second, it seems to me that the LHC at CERN will be conducting experiments that could falsify QWC. For example, if the Higgs particle itself is found and shows that the LHC can produce the extreme energy density of the earliest moments of expansion where the Higgs particle itself appears before it decays, then QWC is falsified. QWC contends that energy at the maximum possible energy density has no mass, so the existence of a massive particle like the Higgs would show that QWC is fatally flawed. If only the Higgs mechanism is found in the remnants of a pattern associated with the decay of the Higgs particle, then I will not yet know if the resulting array of particles is decay of the Higgs particle or the formation of particles from the extreme energy density. QWC contends that after the burst of a big crunch, sufficient expansion must take place in order for matter to form from the dense dark energy. I am not familiar enough with the experiments and have not quantified matter formation within QWC, so I can’t claim any theory about the meaning of the discovery of a pattern of particles without the discovery of Higgs particle itself. I don’t know anyone who is familiar enough with the LHC experiments and who would be willing to talk about the poorly presented ideas of QWC in relation to the meanings of the data that the LHC will produce. Almost certainly the individuals I am referring to do not exist and so short of me getting off of “stupid” somehow, no theory of QWC will emerge. As it stands there is that one possibility that I would think falsifies QWC; that being the discovery of the Higgs particle itself. On the other hand, if no Higgs mechanism is detected and if the energy density achieved by the LHC can be considered energetic enough to falsify Higgs Theory, then that would leave open the possibilities conveyed in the ideas of QWC.

Particle physics and its Standard Particle Model predicts a graviton, while General Relativity is satisfied with curved spacetime. There are ongoing attempts to reconcile those two theories, but not too long ago it was thought that GR breaks down in the Planck regime, and that the discovery of gravity waves, i.e. the graviton, would solve the cause of gravity.

I knew what the full formula was, and the premise was equivalence, the short cut reference was to E=mc^2. Sorry I didn't respond but what could I have said other that what I just said? Do you think the pics are pretty good, regardless of the merit of the ideas? I go through this with every smart scientific type and that is not a put down or a criticism, just an observation of forum life . It is not a theory. I usually ask people who want it reduced to math and falsifiable tests, where it is that I said it was theory. I can show you several places where I say it is not theory but ideas, and that I want to talk about the ideas. That is why I go to the trouble to distinguish between ideas and theory, i.e. between protoscience and science. My last merged post had a paragraph in it that nicely stated a summary of the ideas. If we could get to the intent of my posting here, you could actually address the ideas: 1) Gravity aether is not necessary if space and time are physically connected and if a four dimensional geometric coordinate system faithfully represents space, time and mass. Do you agree? Then I acknowledge that … 2) General Relativity and the EFEs are extremely accurate because every event meaning the history of the motion of an object and the current momentum and location of the object are defined mathematically using points in that coordinate system (remember I don't claim to understand the EFEs but I'd say that the tensors deal with all of the forces acting on a point in the coordinate system from all other locations). That mathematical description of mass and motion works because the motion that mass follows is quite accurately represented in the EFEs. It says how mass will move but not how mass and energy curves spacetime, in other words it does not say what causes spacetime to curve. I'm not trying to define the mathematics of the motion of objects. Einstein did a pretty good job of that. I am questioning that GR tells us how mass curves spacetime. Don’t get mad, but can you tell me how spacetime gets physically curved? The hardest part in explaining spacetime is the problem of how physical objects can faithfully and completely be defined mathematically. Are you so certain that the correspondence between the physical mass and the geometrical description of the mass are perfect? They are very good but the physical mass is the real mass and the GR spacetime representation is a construct. How does a mathematical construct affect the physical space and time? It doesn't. Space and time have to themselves be physically connected not mathematically connected. 3) So as I said in my last merged post this morning, if mass and energy physically curve spacetime then the idea of gravity aether is not necessary but if not, there is still a need for gravity aether. Mine is a fallback position and is a set of ideas that could explain mass and gravity if spacetime doesn’t actually have an answer to how the physical space and time are coupled and curved. No one has offered an answer on that yet and I have asked many smart people to tell me. That is not intended t be a criticism. 4) Just like you have to accept that mass and energy can physically curve spacetime in GR, you have to be prepared to think about an alternative force that lies at the heart of QWC. It is the process of quantum action. Both GR and QWC require some as yet unexplained and undetected physics. GR does not say what the physics are and QWC says what they are, quantization of energy and quantum action that establishes the presence and movement of mass and emanates low energy density into the aether in direct proportion to the energy of the mass. The idea is that mass follows the path of lowest energy density in the aether surrounding it. The aether is composed of spherically expanding corridors that reach our mass. Each corridor represents the distant mass in a time delayed fashion that can be translated and prioritized by our mass based on the net energy density that surrounds our mass and that net, at every physical point surrounding our mass has a different energy density based on the distant time delayed mass. For example say two different sized objects with different masses are the same distance from our mass. The greater mass will have a greater effect on our mass because it has the greater negative energy density emanation. 5) I offer to answer questions about these ideas. I encourage discussion of these ideas. If you stick with me you may find that though there is no test yet envisioned, and it is not theory because the force of quantum action is so tiny that we cannot yet detect it, I maintain that when compared to the cause of the curvature of physical spacetime, quantum action provides a mechanism that would orchestrate the movement of mass the same way, and does much more. If you don’t think talking about such ideas is scientific, then I ask you where science starts in your mind. I say science starts with ideas, and discussion of the ideas usually is all it takes to falsify them. I need help to do that. If you are saying that talking about ideas that have not been developed by a professional scientist/mathematician is nonsense to your mind, then I am asking you to rethink that position. Re-read the steps posted earlier if you didn’t realize I was serious of if you didn’t understand the ideas. If you can blow the ideas out of the water you would then get me off your forum the right way. 6) The process of quantum action establishes the presence of mass at the instant that the high density spots form during quantum action. The spot has physical location and momentum. The process of quantum action is continual, and as the high density spot bounces into expansion there is a spherically expanding quantum wave emanating through the mass and out into the aether. 7) The process of quantum action causes mass to move and the movement is established because the momentum of the previous set of high density spots, one for each quantum of energy in the mass, carries the mass to a slightly different location during one quantum period. The mass is then refreshed in that new location by the next complete set of quantum actions which establishes the mass again in a whole new set of high density spots in that slightly changed location. 8) During that one quantum period, the direction of the movement is influenced by the momentum of the set of high density spots, and the energy density of the aether surrounding the mass. The direction can change ever-so-slightly due to that path of lowest energy density in the aether surrounding the mass. The EFEs describe that motion to the best ability of man, and the mathematics of GR down to the Plank regime where GR breaks down faithfully describe the same motion that quantum action and gravity aether cause. This is where you bow out, or where you actually read what I am saying, think about the ideas and why I even have these ideas, and enter into a discussion. I’m not being critical or pessimistic, I am challenging you.

Quantum Wave Cosmology and Gravity Aether I know some of the clichés about who cares and who doesn’t care what I think, and I acknowledge the position that forum members are taking. It can simply be summarized by saying that under current theory there is no need for aether and the fact that is has not been detected after carefully designed experiments means that there is no detectible aether using the current tools we have to look for it. I acknowledge that. The part that there is no need for it is true if mass curves space time. If mass does not curve spacetime it is not true. My threads approach the issue of aether from the fall back position that mass does not curve spacetime and therefore the need for gravity aether is renewed. No one else describes gravity aether like I do as far as I know. That alone is maybe cause for disbelief. But gravity aether (and the central characteristic of the process of quantum action that creates the gravity aether) is logical, it makes connections between mass and gravity that no one else is making, it describes a mechanism that could guide mass through space in the same way that curved spacetime does, and it does much more. On the surface then QWC is based on a force involving energy quantization that establishes and continually refreshes the presence of mass. That idea when explored with thought explains the movement of mass as simply the relocation of the high density spot of every energy quanta in the mass (quantum action at work) as the presence of mass is re-established every quantum period (every instant) in a slightly different place. The change in the focal point of the quanta, i.e. the change in the location of the mass is determined by the energy density of the aether surrounding the mass. During each quantum period (the length of time it takes for all quanta within mass to be refreshed once) the momentum of the mass has caused movement. That movement is determined by the momentum and the energy density surrounding the mass. Momentum carries mass through space in the path of lowest energy density. The net of the low energy density emanating from every mass in the universe exists at all points in aether that occupies space and reaches every other mass. As our mass moves based on its momentum, the place that it move to next is the path of lowest energy density in the aether surrounding the mass. I am smart enough to know that is not a dumb idea. You can’t understand the detail from such a brief overview, but if you were to talk with me about it and ask questions pertinent to it, maybe it would seem less than dumb to you too. Or maybe by using valid arguments about why it can’t work or why it can’t even stand on its own merits you would actually be setting me free. It isn’t hard to understand why aether theories got moved to the back seat of the buss. After Einstein came up with the field equations that are still the best we can do at predicting gravitational effects, the physical need for aether was removed. It didn’t matter if there was aether because we can predict gravity from the GR perspective with curved spacetime. And I can accept curved spacetime if I know what causes it to curve. I know; mass and energy cause spacetime to curve. But how? What is it that transmits the presence of mass to other mass across space, or what is it about the energy that lets it reach out to occupy space around mass. What is the nature of that energy? QWC deals with gravity as if there was aether composed of energy density and the energy density is emanated from the mass and has an infinite reach as the quantum waves that carry the energy expand spherically across space. (I hate to make analogies because they never stand up, but an analogy is that mass sucks in aether as part of the process of quantum action, consumes part of it to re-establish all of the high density spots caused by quantum action, thus moving and maintaining the presence of mass, and emits the unused, i.e. lower energy density aether back into space with a time delay that occurs while the aether is being distributed throughout the mass). I don’t claim to understand spacetime math but there is really some pretty sophisticated math involved that takes the events that occur as time passes (i.e. motion) and ties them to the space that is occupied by mass. It is an ingenious way to put the physical universe into a 4-D geometrical coordinate system where math can be used to tie the history of motion to the time frame of the motion. Do that for multiple objects and you can relate the combined motion to the effect it has on individual objects in the coordinate system. It is quite beautiful and I certainly understand how mathematicians can make a career out of it and how theorist can do whatever they want with it to test theories and the like. None of that is going away even if there is gravity aether. My point about the mainstream theory of gravity is that it says what gravity does, but not how it does it. QWC says how it does it and accepts the EFEs as the best we can do to say what it does.

In Quantum Wave Cosmology, negative energy emanates from each mass (represented by the curved lines between the two masses in the graphic). Where the negative emanation spheres intersect, the energy density is combined and the combination of two negative energy density spheres in an overlap has the sum of the two negative densities. Therefore the lowest energy density forms along a line drawn at the point where negative waves intersect. Since the masses in this graphic have directional momentum directly toward each other, the path of lowest energy density is a straight line between them. They will follow that path of lowest energy density and collide. The path of lowest energy density would cause the objects to follow a curved path if the direction of the momentum was not directly toward each other. In the next graphic the direction of momentum was sufficiently altered so the curved paths of the objects would avoid the collision. Notice that there is a focal point at the point of intersection of the negative energy emanations. The focal point remains fixes as the objects move toward the path of lowest energy density between them. Negative energy emanations from mass make the aether a map of the history of mass. The emanations are continual and always imprint the aether with all of the history of the mass. As the mass moves, the emanations are being refreshed every instant and therefore accompany the mass where ever it goes. The emanations spread out into the aether with an infinite reach spreading at the speed of light. This means that the aether is a dynamic record of the location and movement of all mass. The aether emanates from mass as negative energy density at all times. Mass moves toward the path of lowest energy density. Any discussion from the community? Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedIn QWC every point in space has a level of energy density. The dividing line between positive energy density and negative energy density is the dividing line between mass and aether. All mass is positive energy density and all aether is negative energy density. Quantum action maintains the boundary between positive energy density and negative energy density. The positive energy in mass equals the negative energy in the aether. But positive and negative energy density are relative terms. At first it would seem like I am saying that in total there is zero energy but that is far from what I am saying. There is a huge (infinite in QWC terms) amount of positive energy in the universe. The reference to positive and negative energy density in QWC is a reference to the deviation from the average energy density of the space. The idea is that all space contains energy density, space is infinite, and so there is an infinite amount of positive energy. When you consider the supposition that QWC fails because eventually all of the “useful energy” would be used, that is right if there is no way to reverse entropy and if the supply of energy to the aether from mass was a one way street. Obviously such a process could not be maintained very long. The result would be that all mass would be “emanated” into the aether and then that would mark complete entropy. But the distinction between positive energy and negative energy and the “traffic cop” called quantum action makes for perfect conservation of energy, quanta by quanta, in and out of mass, and in and out of the aether; the symmetry of a perfect division between positive energy in mass and negative energy in aether. I’m saying that the aether contains negative energy that emanates from mass as a product of quantum action (I’m going to do a post on “quantum action” to help you understand Quantum Wave Cosmology). The aether orchestrates gravity by way of the negative energy density fluctuations in space caused by mass. The energy density in any patch of space is always changing because negative energy emanations from mass are always readjusting the energy density to record the movement of mass. That movement leaves spherically expanding low energy density corridors that other masses pass through and are influenced by. All mass is in motion and the path that mass takes is determined by the energy density surrounding it. Refer to the graphics in the post above for an idea of how negative energy density determines the path that mass takes through space according to Quantum Wave Cosmology. Ask a question if you want. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I thought that a few graphics would help you see the idea. Do they help? Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedFrom a QWC discussion posted 5-7-2009 at SciForums The scientific community hasn't been able to quantify anything in QWC yet. We don't have the tools yet to look at things at the level where I suggest quantum action occurs and so they are ideas that we don't know how to falsify yet. I think this is answered by the fact that we can't make observations at the level where quantum action would have to be taking place in order to confirm or falsify that quantum action exists. Here are some of the basic ideas of Quantum Wave Cosmology. Tell me if any of them could be considered postulates IYHO. The presence of mass is established and maintained by quantum action within the mass. Mass is established and maintained by the high density spot phase of quantum action. Gravity is caused by the process of quantum action and emanates from mass as negative energy density. Gravity is caused by the precipitous reduction of space occupied by a quantum of energy that accumulates in the overlap of spherically expanding quantum waves. Those quantum waves emanate from the high density spots that establish the presence of mass. Positive energy density and negative energy density are relative terms that represent deviations from the average energy density of space. The total energy in any space is always positive. The presence of mass is positive energy density represented by high density spots that form during the process of quantum action. Gravity is caused by negative energy density that emanates from mass and expands spherically away from mass (presumably at the speed of light). The negative energy density emanating from mass leaves an expanding low energy density corridor in space as the mass moves through space. The corridors represent the history of the movement of mass through space. The corridors of different objects passing through space overlap and the overlaps combine the negative energy densities creating a lower energy density in the space where they overlap. As mass moves through space and encounters these combined low energy density corridors, the movement of that mass is affected because mass moves toward the path of lowest energy density in space. Justification? Because of the clear relationship between mass and gravity I think there is a common explanation for the cause of mass and the cause of gravity. Logically, quantum action provides a possible common cause for both phenomena. You want "quantitative stuff" as you say? I am presenting these ideas to the community in hopes that some brainstorming with smart people will lead to some ways to quantify or falsify QWC. "Explain why anything I say in terms of derived results can be trusted ..."? My interest here is to present some ideas for discussion, and make a word salad case for them that interests members of the community enough to stimulate discussion of the ideas. - - - - - Are you saying that the history of the movement of other objects in space influences the movement of Mercury but only if gravity is caused by curved spacetime? Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedHow is the connection between aether, mass and gravity explained? The aether is energy. It is not quantized energy, but instead it is the product of energy quantization. Energy quantization takes place within mass. The presence of mass is established and maintained by the high density spots that are produced during the process of quantum action. The energy that makes up the aether is made up of quantum waves with negative energy density that corresponds with the positive energy of mass. That negative energy has emanated from mass at the speed of light in all directions in the form of spherically expanding quantum waves. Quantization within mass has a push and a pull phase. The wave form has a trough of negative energy from the pull phase and a peak of positive energy from the push phase. This “pull and push” is a spherical wave form emanated during one complete quantum action. The pull trough precedes the push crest, and when the wave from emanates from mass it is quickly netted into the energy density of the aether surrounding the mass. The aether surrounding the mass is the emanating negative energy from the mass as well as the negative energy density finally arriving at the mass from distant masses. It is all netted out right there in the space surrounding the mass. The path of lowest energy density surrounding the mass is the path that mass takes through space. The net is always negative energy because during each quantum period of action within the mass enough energy to maintain the mass is extracted from the push energy and the aether. The quantum period of the mass is the length of time it takes for the entire mass to be refreshed as a new set of high density spots forms; one quantum period. But since some energy is emanated during that quantum period from absorbed aether in a previous quantum period, the amount of energy need to refresh all of the high density spots must supplemented by pulling in aether to replace the emanation. The mass always owes a debt of energy to the aether to repay it for the energy it needs to maintain itself. As said, the aether contribution to the refreshing of these high density spots during a single quantum period equals the negative energy emanation. Though the net energy of a single quantum action is zero (+e represents one quantum in the high density spot which comes from –e which means one quantum of energy was contained in the collapse that creates the high density spot) the net energy of the emanation during a single quantum period is negative because of subsequent containment of the quantum waves as they pass through the mass. See the recap of “quantum action” (below) that mentions the time delay associated with containment. Recap/update of Quantum Action The presence of mass is established and maintained by a force called quantum action. Quantum action is a process in nature going on in the infinitesimal realm where we can’t see it. Quantum action has six distinct phases that utilize energy, space and time to cause mass and gravity. Phase one is formation. Within mass, a quantum of energy forms from the overlap of preceding quantum waves. That quantum of energy occupies an initial volume of space defined by the overlap. The second phase is quantum collapse. This is attributed to natural causes operating at the quantum level of order that are undetectable. The collapse is characterized by a precipitous decline in the volume of space occupied by the quantum of energy. This is the pull phase. The energy in the initial space collapses into a high density spot that occupies an infinitesimal space. The effect of the collapse is to pull the energy from the surrounding space into the potential void left by the collapse. When I think of this I visualize the pull to have an infinite reach as if a tiny sink hole has formed in the universe and the universe starts to fall into it until the high density spot forms. The collapse forms the trough of the quantum wave form, referred to as negative energy in QWC. The third phase is marked by a point in time when the collapse ends and the expansion begins. This point in time occurs when the energy participating in the collapse reaches a limit of energy density. As the effective radius of the collapsing quantum declines, the energy density in the collapsing quantum space increases precipitously as it approaches the maximum possible energy density. The phase three point in time occurs simultaneously with the attainment of maximum energy density. At this phase three point in time the collapse bounces into expansion. It is said to bounce off of the limit of maximum energy density in nature because infinite energy density is the other alternative and infinite energy density is impossible in QWC. The fourth phase of quantum action is spherical expansion. When the bounce occurs, the dense state energy of the high density spot utilizes its potential expansion energy that was built up during the collapse to send the quantum of energy into spherical expansion at the speed of light. This phase four spherical expansion leads to the fifth phase of quantum action. The fifth phase is containment. Containment is a subsequent event that affects the energy content of the expanding spherical wave. As the wave traverses the distance through the mass toward the aether surrounding the mass it encounters subsequent quantum actions that are occurring in its path. Some of the energy of the expanding quantum wave is caught up in the quantum collapses that are occurring as the wave passes and so some of our original quantum of energy is delayed, i.e. contained in subsequent quantum action. The sixth phase of quantum action occurs as the remnant of the energy in our quantum wave emanates from mass and is merged with the net energy emanation from the mass into the aether in all directions. 1, 2, and 3 represent energy quanta within a tiny mass. #3 is the freshest quantum and is expanding and overlapping with 1 & 2 which are quantum wave remnants from which #3 it formed. The aether plays a role in supplying the energy to the new high density spots that form. The aether overlaps with expanding waves from the mass, and aether intrusion occurs where aether is pulled into high density spots during the collapse phase of quantum action. - - - - - The Earth does not just move through the aether, it moves in the path of the lowest energy density surrounding the mass. Most of the low energy density is emanating from the mass itself in real time, but the contribution to the surrounding aether that is arriving in the corridors of negative energy density reaching the mass from distant masses determines the low energy density path. I helps to explain that in QWC, energy has always existed but no mass has always existed. The energy that establishes the presence of mass came from the aether during a period of matter formation that takes place in every expanding arena. Ultimately, all mass is finally negated back into energy and when that occurs, the exact amount of energy that existed to maintain the presence of the mass is returned to the aether as dense state energy. All of the energy in the form of mass that enters into the composition of a big crunch is negated meaning it is converted back to dense state energy in a big crunch. While the mass exists, the net emanation is negative because of the time delay while quantum action takes place. Energy enters the mass from the aether to feed the high density spots that form within mass due to quantum action and then that energy experiences a delay before it is emanated back to the aether. The length of the net time delay within mass is equal to the energy in the mass and equal to the total energy extracted from the aether which accumulated as the mass formed. Larger mass has a longer delay and a larger negative energy emanation into the aether.

The key to the aether flow is the force of quantum action. These are the ideas about quantum action. Quantum action is the collapse of a quantum of energy into a spot of the highest possible energy density in a smallest possible volume of space. In QWC the energy density of the spot is the maximum energy density that can be attained. The volume of the spot is the tiniest volume of space that can contain a quantum of energy at maximum energy density. We have a high density spot. From a few posts ago there was mention of some brainstorming that came up with an idea that put the possible amount of energy in a high density spot at 1/700 billionth of the energy in a single proton. The collapse of a quantum of energy into a high density spot is preceded by circumstances that lead to the collapse. Quantum action within mass is ongoing and it perpetuates the presence of the mass by causing the high density spots to occur in a repetitive process. (Quantum action is a repetitive process where a force consisting of the collapse and burst of a high density spot generates quantum waves.) The ongoing process includes expanding eneergy quanta (quantum waves) that intersect and overlap. As nearby spherically expanding quantum waves intersect there are overlaps where their energy is combined. When the combined energy in an overlap reaches the quantum amount, the expansion of the space it occupies is interrupted. When the accumulation equals the quantum, the inturruption occurs and that quantum will collapse into a high density spot. All this is according to these ideas about what causes mass and gravity in the quantum action realm, a realm where the action takes place in such small increments that we cannot detect it with current technology. When the collapse occurs it will continue until the maximum possible energy density is achieved in the tiniest possible space. When the maximum energy density is achieved the spot experiences a quantum bounce. The collapse is halted by reaching the maximum energy density threshold and the momentum of the collapse is converted into expansion energy. Both the collapse and the bounce into expansion are supposed to be or at least are discussed in QWC as spherical (the spherical cow concept perhaps) and the radius of the sphere is changing at the speed of light. The quantum of energy expands spherically as it bounces off of the maximum possible energy density achieved by the collapse. As it expands its internal energy density decreases and the volume increases. As long as the expansion continues uninterrupted there will be a process of equalization of the energy density within the sphere. The quantum wave of energy will expand until it is interrupted by intersecting with similarly expanding quantum waves. How long it takes for an intersection to occur is determined by the energy density of the wider space occupied by multiple expanding quantum waves within mass. Of course if the radius of expansion is occurring at the speed of light, it doesn't take long for intersections and overlaps to form. When the intersection of quantum waves occurs there is an overlap formed and the energy density in the overlap is the combination of the energy density of the intersecting spherical waves. When the amount of energy in the overlap reaches a quantum of energy, the overlap will collapse (due to natural causes) into a high density spot. This is considered to be a natural phenomenon that causes the quantization of energy. Mass is therefore composed of energy in quantum increments according to the scenario. That is quantum action. The collapse of the energy into a high density spot is the "pull" action of quantum action that casues gravity, and the quantum bounce and spherical expansion of the quantum wave is the "push" action of quantum action that establishes the presence of mass in a location where it occurs. This pull not only causes gravity, but it pulls energy into mass to enable the continuation of quantum action. The push forces energy out of mass to feed the aether flow. There is a continual exchange of energy between mass and the aether and so the connection between mass, gravity and the aether is pervasive. The energy flowing into mass originated from the emanation of energy from distant mass, and the outflow of energy from mass comes from the high density spots that are always forming from the collapses. Quantum waves from the bounce and burst of high density spots will expand through the aether until they reach and are absorbed by distant mass as part of the same process that is taking place in that mass. The scenario is talking about trillions of quanta participating in quantum action to account for even the smallest of masses. They combine to establish the presence of mass in the form of high density spots, and they cause gravity during the collapse of the energy quanta into high density spots.

My plan was to present my cosmology for discussion and input and I appreciate the feed back I have gotten so far. Since the aether is a part of Quantum Wave Cosmology I should add an introductory post about that as a way to move forward. I call this post aether, mass and gravity because of the connections between them, and because I hope to follow this post with an introductory post about mass and gravity from the QWC perspective. These are ideas and not theory so keep that in mind. Aether, mass and gravity in QWC (Originally posted at SciForums so the threads I refer to are there under the ID=Quantum_Wave) I have spoken about the aether in my “Mass *has*gravity” thread in the pseudoscience forum, the first Quantum Wave Cosmology (QWC) thread on the forum. I made a case for moving QWC out of pseudoscience on the basis that is was protoscience and the rules of the Pseudoscience Forum address that possibility. I took up my discussion of QWC in the Cosmology Forum in the “QWC’s Niche” thread, and have mentioned the aether in passing there as well. In the mainstream there is a reference to a “luminiferous aether” that was not found by careful experiments. Luminiferous aether is referred to as superseded scientific theory since it was not discovered as predicted. That is not the same aether that QWC describes as being “connected” with mass and gravity. In any discussion of the aether in QWC, its connection to mass and gravity must be also be part of that discussion. All three are intimately connected to enable mass to exist, enable gravity, and to determine the path that mass takes as it moves. Those connections are discussed in the following paragraphs. In QWC the aether emanates from mass in the form of spherically expanding waves of energy. These waves originate within mass as the result of the force of quantum action. Quantum action is the force that represents the presence of a quantum of energy within mass. Quantum action is characterized by the collapse of a quantum of energy into a high density spot with location and momentum, and the burst of that spot into a spherically expanding quantum wave. The collapse of the quantum of energy is triggered by the presence of a quantum of energy within the intersection where quantum waves overlap. The convergence of energy that produces a quantum of energy within the small space required for quantum action to occur is the trigger for quantum action. The volume of the triggering space depends on the energy density of the immediate environment. The volume of space occupied by the high density spot is invariant and always equal to the smallest meaningful space and an invariant energy density that is required to produce quantum action. A quantum of energy is the smallest meaningful increment of energy. Mass is made up of energy in quantum increments and there is a repetitive sequence of quantum action within mass for every quanta that makes up the mass. The period of repetition is the shortest meaningful increment of time. When quantum action causes energy to emanate from mass that energy is added to the aether. The energy thus added to the aether is the same amount of energy that is absorbed from the aether by mass to replace the energy within the mass so that the equivalence between mass and energy is maintained on a quantum for quantum basis. The aether is therefore connected to mass and gravity. The term, “dragged” by mass is correct in QWC but the meaning of “dragged” differs from the meaning used in the various experiments that tested for luminiferous aether “dragging” and found none. The aether is required in QWC to maintain the equivalence between mass and energy, and because the cause of mass and gravity depends on it. The aether, like the universe, has always existed, but it is ever changing. The aether is continually refreshed by the existence of mass since the source of the aether is quantum action. Likewise the aether is the source of energy required to replace the energy of gravity that emanates from mass as a result of that same quantum action. The aether transmits gravity. The spherically expanding quantum waves that emanate from mass are what give gravity its infinite reach. You can quickly see the dual nature of the aether connection to mass and gravity in that 1) it emanates from mass and is absorbed back into mass to continually refresh the presence of the exact number of quanta that make up the mass, and 2) it transmits gravity across the distance between bodies of mass. The aether is connected to mass by an out flow of “push” energy that emanates from all mass and that has an infinite reach across space by way of the spherically expanding quantum waves that are produced by quantum action within mass. The aether is also connected to mass by a flow of “pull” energy into mass as the collapse of energy quanta occurs during formation of the high density spots within mass. For any given mass the push and pull are equivalent for each quantum time increment. The aether is connected to gravity since at any point in space the aether has energy density that is the product of all pushes and pulls of gravity from all mass in the universe. Therefore the path that mass takes through the aether is determined by the path of lowest energy density surrounding the mass. The energy of mass remains equivalent to the energy of the quantum increments that make up the mass but that energy is maintained because the gravitational energy that is emanated by mass is completely replaced by the gravitational energy from other mass that is absorbed to replace the emanated gravitational energy. Quantum action pulls energy into mass as high density spots form and the burst of those high density spots pushes energy out of mass. It is a balanced, continuous process of quantum action in mass that occurs repetitively for every quantum increment that makes up the mass. The amount absorbed by a given mass always equals the energy value of the energy emanating from mass in the form of gravity. QWC presents a physical picture that enables you to envision the dynamics of the aether, what causes mass and gravity, and how the path of mass through space is determined. Since it is still only protoscience there is no quantification. We don’t know the amount of energy in a quantum. We don’t know the amount of space required to trigger the collapse of a quantum of energy into a high density spot. We don’t know the energy density range required of the environment to maintain the process of quantum action within mass. We don’t know the maximum energy density achieved within a high density spot before it bursts. We don’t know the volume of space occupied by a high density spot at its peak energy density. We don’t know the average period of time between quantum action events that occur repetitively to maintain mass. We don’t know for sure that the radius of the spherically expanding quantum wave increases at the speed of light as expected. We don’t know if the process of quantum action at the quantum scale really equates to the process of the formation and burst of big crunches on the arena scale of the greater universe but I find that aspect of QWC interesting. Visualizing quantum action that takes place within mass, and visualizing the formation and burst of big crunches at the arena level as differing only on scale gives us two perspectives from which we can draw on to describe the natural force of quantum action. Notwithstanding what we don’t know about QWC, it provides ideas that are subject to possible quantification as the technology of scientific measurement advances. Those advances are required in order for science to fulfill its quest for a unifying theory, and QWC is anticipating those advancements.

In regard to chemistry, all chemical reactions are measured on the atomic scale. Each atom has its own energy at rest in accord with the atomic table, and can be excited to higher energy levels by adding photons or electrons and can be lowered by emitting photons or shedding electrons. Electrons can be added to atoms or removed from atoms to make ions. These changes are the causes and the results of chemical reactions but I am oversimplifying it and I bet you could go into much more detail so I don't want to sound like I am being intelligent (that would be a real stretch for me ). But my point is that the entropy involved with chemical reactions is still entropy, i.e. energy is used and it cannot be replaced unless you can go outside the closed system. The result of the use of chemical energy is measurable, predictable, observable, all that. Entropy is different in the quantum realm where the atomic particles themselves display characteristics of the fundamental particles and forces beneath the atomic level. They experience entropy that is unrelated to the atomic structure operating in chemical reactions, and yet every interaction between fundamental particles would seem to use energy and contribute to entropy. It is just that except in nuclear reactions, the source of the energy used and the disposition of the energy after it is used is not detectable in the quantum realm and is only accounted for within the bounds of the uncertainty principle. There is entropy, we know that the amount of useful energy is diminished by quantum mechanics, but we cannot see into the depths of those interactions. The best we can do at present is refer to the wave function and say that we are not necessarily observing entropy but might be observing two states of the same energy, i.e. wave/particle duality. But in the long run, even without any chemical activity (not that that is possible), entropy would still occur as a result of quantum activity and will eventually lead to the heat death of the universe, sometimes referred to as the Big Rip. Unless of course there is some way in nature that reverses entropy. I just toss this out for you to comment on because I know that it is hard to get anyone to engage with in the pseudoscience and speculation forum. Maybe you can refute what I say of maybe someone else will jump on me for the simplicity of my post.

There is a fine line between speculation and pseudoscience. I came across one method used to help make the distinction and I went into some detail about it in this post in my thread in this very same Pseudoscience and Speculation forum. The method is called the CONPTT approach. http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/conptt.html Read and enjoy .

Can you be specific by using the quote function to highlight evidence that contradicts my scenario and that also means my scenario is not compatible with existing science? I read the comments pretty carefully, and I'm pretty familiar with everything that was mentioned, and I have responses that generally resolve the incompatibilities that you imply have been “evidenced”. I would be glad to give my view on any of the “ifs” that you want to address specifically. That is not the case. I have mentioned my previous threads on other forums where I have presented this scenario in more detail. Instead of the accusations that I am gaming those who were kind enough to respond, why not try to understand where I am coming from. I haven’t tried to hide the fact that this is speculation, but I am quite sure that speculation has a place in the development of science. If I am wrong on that you might want to address the thousands of Google links that come up when you Google “science speculation”. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=science+speculation&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq= http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=First+Law+of+Thermodynamics+&btnG=SearchLess than a million links on Google for this search. Please show me where any of them define the parameters of our universe or say that there has to be a finite amount of energy in the universe. I mentioned the usage of quantization that you are referring to. I explained that the quantization that I am referring to takes place at a level that is undetectable by our current level of technology. That is why this is speculation. You might understand what I mean when I say that as our technology improves we may someday be able to observe what goes on at the infinitesimal level of order. My challenge from above still stands. I gave you over 700,000 Google links on 1LT. Show me what I missed that supports your statement. I am uncomfortable getting into this kind of challenge and counter challenge, but if I shy away from it am I admitting that I hadn’t already done my homework and hadn’t been made aware of an argument and that it really overturns my scenario. From what you have said, I feel bad to have to stand up for my scenario because you have made a sincere effort to enlighten me, but so far I have already covered the territory that you bring up as I developed this scenario and I am ready to address any of the issues you mention in more detail if you give me a chance. Darn it, I wish you wouldn’t go until you address this response. I’m just a free and unabashed thinker who is more than willing to be corrected. You should be able to follow through on your comments and get me corrected if you are right. *************** Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedI went back to see if I had mentioned that I was Quantum_wave over on SciForums and if I had mentioned this thread over there. I noticed that I didn't give the link before and thought I should since I refer to the detail that is posted there. At least it will help anyone who wants to look at some of my past posts about this scenario. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I would like to respond to this paragraph in addition to my previous post where I challenged you on what you said about thermodynamics. I see that you do understand how I am using the concept of quantization because you do refer to how various discrete packets of energy related to photon emission and the quantum leaps involved with electromagnetic radiation would have to be integer values of the quantum. What your example did was explain how the various electron drops are not of equal energy and so you conclude that there is no quantum value that would always produce an integer count of quanta. In QWC though, the electron drops from one orbital to another are multiple quanta events. For example, I brainstormed in another forum about how many quanta there might be in a proton, or an electron (and therefore in various quarks). One possible approach to quantifying the energy in protons and electrons took several speculations together. The idea was related to the measurements that shows the energy of an electron is ~1/1836 of a proton. One speculation that was interesting was that the surface of the proton consisted of the same number of quanta as the entire electron. There were ideas about nucleosynthesis that used this relationship to describe the formation of quarks, protons, and electrons but that deserves another post by itself which I have done elsewhere and would be over kill here at the present. Equating the surface of a proton to the surface of a sphere I was able to calculate a supposed number of energy quanta in the electron and the proton. The calculation was based on the relationship between the area of the surface of a sphere, and the volume of a sphere. Area/Volume = (4 pi r2)/(4/3 pi r3) = 3/r = 1/1836, therefore r = 3*1836 = 5508 4/3 pi r^3 using a radius of 5508 quanta gives us 699,955,457,517 quanta in a proton, and dividing by 1836 gives us 381,239,356 quanta in an electron (at rest). Admittedly there are several reasons why these calculations aren't right on, but they do point to the possibility that there are a huge number of energy quanta involved in an electron. So when I use the phrase that matter is composed of energy in quantum increments, I mean that protons might contain ~700 billion quanta and electrons might contain 381 million quanta. Putting these quantities into the perspective of the movement of an electron from one ring or orbital to the next and you can see that because of the tiny energy involved in a quantum it is entirely feasible that there is an integer value of quanta for the jumps even though the jumps are themselves of differing energy values. I would welcome any comments on this post (especially since I don't think there is anything I could say to bring lucaspa back, darn it. I didn't mean to seem unappreciative or offensive but I know that I do seem that way when I defend speculations without evidence. I have been working very hard on these ideas because I know there are answers to three questions, what is the cause of mass, what is the cause of gravity, and what caused the Big Bang. Though we don't have the answers yet, we should be able to look to the future. I know that the science professionals are always working on moving the science forward. However nowhere will you see something for the layman with all of the pieces of a cosmology that describes the main areas being addressed by the professional, i.e. the cause of mass, the cause of gravity, and the cause of the Big Bang in one readable, responsible scenario which mine is and of which I have only presented some basic ideas about it here so far, hoping to find some interest on this forum).

All of your comments are appreciated. They point out what I readily admit; my scenario goes beyond the mainstream, I have no proof, and I can’t point to a means of testing my scenario. I make a case for it being protoscience as opposed to pseudoscience on the basis that it is compatible with existing science and that technological advancement will allow for tests to be developed. Whether it is protoscience or not might boil down to each of our personal interpretations of the scientific method. If you have the stick-to-itiveness to wade through the following you will see how I attempt to defend my position in response to your recent posts. I will be happy to address any specifics from your previous responses that you don’t feel are addressed below. Energy defined in Quantum Wave Cosmology (QWC): (Summary level ... I can provide more detail on any point below to explain my ideas but it will still only be ideas and not qualified science so don't expect any proof or proposed means of testing the ideas for awhile.) My scenario is that in our finite arena that we call our expanding universe there is a finite amount of energy that takes many forms. As the scenario goes, if there was a common unit in which we could describe all energy it would be called the energy quantum, a precise amount of energy that lies at the heart of the idea and concept of quantization that I am using as a means to account for energy in all of it forms and uses in QWC. The term quantum here is not the familiar usage of the term quantum as in the discrete energy packets of electromagnetic radiation or as in describing the quantum nature of the various fundamental particles. I am using the term quantum as a common denominator of all forms of energy, nuclear, thermal, kinetic, any form that energy can take. And I am proposing the idea (it is an idea and not science, maybe better call protoscience) that in our finite arena of space that we call our expanding universe, all of the energy when measured in this as yet un-quantified but consistent increment called the quantum, adds up to a finite but all inclusive amount of energy in our arena. Note that quantization is a mechanism that allows energy to be “used” and to change form with perfect precision, in other words with perfect accounting for every quantum. It is this basic accounting that QWC sees in nature that supports the theory that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Keep in mind that entropy is our enemy. Quantization may be perfect, but entropy measures the decline in “useful energy”; without reverse entropy the end result is the “heat death” of the universe or the “big rip” as described by current theories. If (and I say if even though it is contrary to QWC, if) our universe consists of only our finite expanding arena, then there seems to be no turning it around. Expansion is accelerating, the amount of useful energy is finite and declining as entropy increases, and there is no indication of a mechanism of reverse entropy in current theory (though there are various ideas about it that are not embraced by the scientific community). Unless there are other similar arenas throughout the greater universe (beyond our known expanding universe, our expanding arena will not be able to support life forever. In my scenario, all space contains energy meaning that there is an additional form of energy, an aether that fills all space leaving no voids, and therefore at every point in space there is some level of energy density. Energy can be in the form of the aether, or it can be quantized as in mass and it can even be in another energy state called “dense state” energy at the core of a big crunch, so dense that mass cannot function at that level of compression. The energy that makes up the mass of the universe is in quantum increments and therefore mass is quantized energy that exists in a sea of aether. Quantized mass is not static but is characterized by quantum action that is a very rapid and repetitive process of renewal of the presence of the energy quanta that make up all mass. Quantum action is a force that encompasses a quantum of energy and that describes a repetition that takes place each instant within mass. Quantum action involves the accumulation of a quantum of energy, the collapse of that quantum into a high density spot, the burst (bounce off of a limit of maximum energy density) of that energy into a spherically expanding quantum wave, all occurring within a brief instant. The intersecting and overlapping of quantum waves is what allows new quanta to form from the energy contained in spherically expanding quantum waves. They overlap, the energy that converges in the overlap collapses into a high density spot, the spot achieves the maximum possible energy density allowed by nature and “bounces” into a burst of energy that takes the shape of a spherically expanding quantum wave of energy thus perpetuating the process of quantum action. I know this is vague but the exact amount of energy in a quantum, the exact amount of space occupied by a quantum of energy at its high density point, and the length of time it takes for one quantum action to occur are not known yet. I can only say that the energy increment is the smallest possible energy increment that can have a meaningful impact in the formation of mass, the space occupied by the high density spot phase of quantum action is the smallest possible space that can be described with any hope of quantification, and the length of time it takes for a “quantum action” to occur and re-occur is the shortest amount of time we can hope to ever measure because these quantities are the final limits of what we call “infinitesimal”. It is from this context that I define the term energy in the cosmology that I am trying to describe. My definition is therefore much broader than the definition of energy that falls within the accepted scientific usage of the term. This more inclusive definition, i.e. that the universe “is” energy, describes why I am mixing my energy terms and concepts when viewed from a mainstream perspective. To me useful energy and its relationship to entropy deals with the same energy as is contained in mass, as is represented by motion, as is a characteristic of electromagnetic radiation, thermal radiation, as is a characteristic of chemical reactions, as is the medium of space called the aether, and as is the sole component of the universe that can take so many forms. There is perfect conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed, and all of the energy in the universe has always existed and is continually participating in the processes of quantum action and arena action. In addition to our finite arena (which we call our expanding universe), there is a greater universe that encompasses a potentially infinite number of arenas of the same amount of energy, i.e. quantized at the arena level of order. Some are expanding arenas and some are contracting arenas, but all are in a greater universe where entropy is defeated by the arena process that is characterized by energy-to matter- to energy process. This process centers around the formation of high density big crunches, the burst of crunches into expanding balls of dark energy, the formation of mass within the expanding dark energy, and the eventual formation of galaxies that are separating from each other in all directions. This separation of galaxies in a co-moving coordinate system occurs because expansion momentum is imparted to mass as it forms and momentum is conserved as mass clumps into particles, atoms, stars and galaxies. In QWC there will be an eventual overlap of the galactic expansions of two or more arenas (two or more co-moving coordinate systems) to form new arenas which collapse into big crunches. It is a perpetual process called “arena action” of which our expanding arena is a small and passing part. And to round out the energy picture in my scenario, in what I call Quantum Wave Cosmology, the arena process (“arena action”) that takes place in the landscape of the greater universe is very similar to what I describe as “quantum action” that I described as taking place at the infinitesimal level of order. The major difference is that at the infinitesimal level of order there is insufficient compression surrounding the high density spots and so the high density spots bounce immediately into spherically expanding quantum waves as soon as the maximum energy density is achieved. On the other end of the energy density spectrum, when a big crunch forms, compression is present and builds until the crunch reaches maximum internal energy density and is finally defeated from within leading to the burst and the resulting spherically expanding ball of dense dark energy. So yes, I have a laymen’s understanding of the mainstream view of energy and its various forms, and yes, I understand the mainstream view of entropy, and of electromagnetic radiation, thermal radiation, rest energy, relativistic energy, kinetic energy, energy released in chemical reactions, and even potential energy. I understand that energy and force go together. I understand that no aether has been detected and the concept of aether is called “superseded scientific theory” since it was not discovered as predicted. But to define energy in QWC, all of the above must be taken into account. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedI had to add a merged post to get access to do some editing to the above post to correct spelling and add some phrasing about the difference between quantum action at the micro and macro levels.

This is a tough crowd . Early on eight or ten people posted to give me encouragement and confidence to post my scenario of cosmology. It is not very likely that the only comment that is in the minds of any of you who have read the ideas is that it I am too vague. My last post for example. I tried to be pretty specific about the idea of quantification of energy and the idea that mass is composed of energy in quantum increments. Quantization is one point in the scenario of ideas where no tests have been proposed and so I have no theory, only protoscience. Can you argue against quantization of energy even if you aren't moved to comment on my suggestion that it is reasonable and responsible speculation?

Let me try a different approach. Does anyone agree that the physics of the known universe includes a concept of energy that encompasses a large body of knowledge and theory? And maybe the most important part of what we know about energy is the equivalence between mass and energy. Agree or disagree? Agree … good. Equivalence between mass and energy is represented by Einstein’s equation e=mc^2. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Agree? … Good. We know energy is a characteristic of mass and can be used by extracting it from mass, as in burning coal to boil water to turn a turbine to operate machinery. That process converts energy from coal to useful motion. Agree? … Good. Does everyone agree that there is a precise equivalence instead of an imprecise casual variable type of relationship between energy contained within mass and the useful energy that is extracted from mass? Is this precise equivalence, if it is true, enough evidence to support a concept of energy quantization? In other words, no matter how or when the mass got formed, while it has been in its present form, at a constant temperature, and unexcited by outside sources, it has always contained a precise amount of energy as in the equation e=mc^2 would indicate? Agreed? ... I hope so. The implication I am getting at is that the fundamental particles of the standard particle model that have mass would all have an equivalent amount of energy relative to their mass, and if fundamental particles have different mass, they would have different energy equivalence. And if energy quantization is the way that equivalence is achieved by nature, wouldn't it follow that the fundamental particles would contain energy in quantum increments, implying that the various fundamental particles all have something in common, and that commonality is energy quantization.