Ken Fabian

Yes, and the receptors in retinas are like that too, even before the visual cortex gets involved - or other brain processes fill in details expected to be there, predicted to be there, not necessarily out of what the optic nerve transmitted. Kinda remarkable such biological systems work so similarly between individuals and can deliver such high levels of discrimination.

When I look at a rainbow I see a progression of colours between inside and outside edges, not distinct bands of seven separate, distinct colours. Naming them red, orange, yellow, green etc is convenient and give an idea of where on the spectrum but even I routinely give names to more than seven. Teal for example - and that word is still for a range of colours, not one unique colour. Any trained artist - or paint supplier - will have a whole lot more colour names than seven - they can get quite creative with the names.

That it was traditional for the dominant majority to be casually insulting to minorities doesn't mean the loss of those traditions will make America worse*, nor preserving them lead to renewed greatness. Honky cracker boys (fun terms?) find those terms fun and funny and having it pointed out that those disparaged by them find them demeaning and offensive... is offensive. Seems like the ability to press those buttons and mobilise voters on such issues got the USA Donald Trump over the line for President. (Or, as an Australian, make Australia, that has similar traditions, worse by calling them out for their offensiveness to minorities and discouraging their use.)

Weighing the conveniences against the inconveniences my mobile phone is hands down a winner. Not that there aren't annoyances and frustrations - took me 15 minutes and starting over again twice to work through to a particular purchase recently. If it worked better it would've taken under 2 minutes. But compared to phoning around shops to check availability, compared to driving to shops and... finding it isn't in stock? Clothing I probably prefer to go in person and try things for fit, but that is rarely an urgent, important purchase. My phone - is about 1/5th the cost of a landline phone to use (Aldi have phone sims and plans here really cheap). Just that is enough to be worth using. But there is more... The call log tracks calls and unanswered calls. I can make video phone calls. I can message, pass videos and pictures around easily. Email. It is a pocket watch of extreme accuracy, that handles time zone changes easily. Countdown timer, stopwatch, alarm clock. A calendar with reminder service. I can take quite decent (or indecent) pictures with it - and edit them. I can make videos with it. It has a calculator that also does unit conversions. A sound recorder. A guitar tuner. A metronome. I can do banking and could use it in place of bank cards - tap and go for small transactions. It plays my music - through ear buds or feeding into our (vintage) "stereo". I can look up all kinds of information, watch tv or movies or stream music or use the 64G of micro-SD and have my whole music collection available. I can read books and get new titles easily. It can be (and often is) our internet connection, sometimes faster than the satellite service. Not used so often that I ever have to add more data. (Unused data allowance accumulates). But there is more... Yes, i can find myself wasting time scrolling around - or read stuff on it in a waiting room - but that is time I have more of because so many things can be done so quickly and easily using it.

The time of year when it is warmest (S. Hemisphere) or coldest (N. Hemisphere) is about a month after the solstice - because there is some lag time between maximum and minimum sunlight and local temperatures topping or bottoming out. The specific timing is down to historical choices and traditions.

There is a limit to wine aging resulting in improvement. After that it gets worse. But perhaps Zebulon wine is different. I'm still struggling to see how trade between the moon or Mars and Earth could be economically viable. The usual solution is imaginary technology, and the "sure" way to get it is positing endless, inevitable technological progress and enough time. For things that are that far beyond us I just can't sustain that level of optimism in inevitability.

For people living amidst unavoidable, perpetual warfare I wonder if the promise of afterlife rewards and punishments makes accepting going into battle and suicidal self sacrifice for the sake of the community a bit easier and more tolerable - and make failure to support or engage in it more intolerable. But I think it may be as much about the sense of being a distinct community as the beliefs - not so much the details of those beliefs as the having beliefs in common, making Us different from Them.

Seems superfluous to make an imaginary afterlife a factor for everyday morality - so many good reasons to treat people fairly, honestly and kindly and reasons to have the rule of law (for mutual benefit) - and kinda pointless if there are easy "redemption" options for de-sinning after committing atrocities. \ Don't know if Night FM is still peddling around here but going by his own words (which rarely address any points any others make and even more rarely their main points) I'm not convinced FM has a good grasp of morality and ethics. Not convinced FM has a good grasp of theology for that matter; a lot of lifelong religious don't accept the existence of Hell or any kind of eternal damnation. At the personal level I am more interested in avoiding being a victim of criminal behavior and being treated fairly and honestly than I am in indulging in criminal behavior at the expense of others. That I live somewhere where criminal behavior is the exception - and strong religious conviction is also the exception - suggests it is not dependent on fear of Hell.

@StringJunky - is your choice of username guitar related? All this time and I never really thought about it - or thought to ask. And yes, my guitar has gotten better with use and age. I was also trying new guitars on a tight budget - something of equivalent quality being out of my range. And I was not fully appreciating what I've got. My addiction (and sometimes it does seems like it) to playing guitar comes and goes a bit, with and without attempting to sing. I think am still getting better at it but with age and arthritis catching up with me that window isn't going stay open. I've always been a bit (a lot) self conscious about it and don't perform well under pressure. But I also don't do the practicing and rehearsing that performing well under pressure requires - too many interests, not enough time, not enough persistent focus on any of them to achieve excellence. I do kinda regret my lack of interest in singing earlier in my life - probably never would have had a powerful voice but maybe could've sounded good.

Oops, misread that - had it built, had built it. My own guitar is Takamine C136s classical, which was acquired more by chance than intent. I'd always thought it sounded good but it is getting in need of re-fretting and has two splits in the top (from a drought/extreme low humidity a few years back) so I tried out a couple of classical guitars at a local music shop. None sounded anywhere near as good. When finances permit I'll have it repaired.

Hats off to your woodworking skills then. And perhaps your ability to source suitable wood too. No small project to make a guitar - to have it turn out good has to be gratifying. As for Yes and their lyrics - they always seemed a bit... close to the edge... of some deeper meaning. Which I didn't quite get. But maybe that was the intention?

It isn't to everyone's taste and the lyrics seem more about atmosphere than story or meaning - but I do like Yes. They didn't tour Australia much and I missed them every time. In truth I don't spend a lot of time listening to music, not even as radio in the background and get my regular music "hits" from messing around with a nylon guitar - sloppy, choppy, undisciplined and over time the flaws have morphed into features, but I have fun with it. What listening I do can include anything from JJ Cale to Beethoven (Violin Concerto lately, with Isaac Stern). Django and Stefan. Jazz mixes - Dave Brubeck, Cannonball Adderley, Mongo Santamaria, Satchmo, the "easy listening" sorts - a lot of Jazz doesn't work for me.

A kind of rat evolved that was "smart" enough to adapt it's behavior by eating another animal's faeces because it made creasote bush edible (probably because it was hungry, other food was not available and those are what it could findbut instead of being poisoned, it gained nutrition)? It's young learned to do so from parental example. Sounds like "conventional" evolution to me. Humans evolved the ability to pass on complex knowledge about tools and working collectively that enhanced their abilities to obtain food and defend against predators. Again, sounds like conventional evolution.

I've been revisiting some of the music I liked when (much) younger. Not much of it still has appeal. Even going back over Beatles albums there were a lot that just don't do it for me, but still leaving some that really, really do. The hard rock likes of Led Zep, Deep Purple, I liked then, not much now. One band - at least some of their catalogue - has managed to impress me more than I expected going back around; I was a fan of Yes in 70's and 80's and much taken back then with Steve Howe's guitar and Rick Wakemen's keyboards especially. Still am but this time around I am floored by Chris Squire's bass playing. Not necessarily has wide appeal but since people seem to be including linked examples. (People who make videos of live performances suck at showing what anyone apart from lead singer and lead guitar are doing but this one segue's into Squire's signature solo piece - him showing off, and a bit indulgently; the basslines across so many songs are awesome, better than that imo, as often the lead instrument as not but so few videos show what he is doing (and how any video people who were AT a Yes concert failed to pay notice to him has me scratching my head)) - "Long Distance Runaround/The Fish" -

Yet I suspect a majority of atheists have a lack of belief in magic or miracles in common and - in my own case - the disbelief in gods and supernatural beings flows from my disbelief in magic rather than the other way around. It is a lack of belief that includes (excludes?) the supernatural and non-physical realms and, by that, disbelieves in gods. Am I therefore actually a-magicist, with my disbelief in gods a subset or is it distinctly different?

As a not-American I expect my opinions aren't worth much and are going to be information poor - yet poor information amplified by partisan media looks like the very essence of recent American election experience. Who was it that predicted media companies would become defacto political parties? As businesses who's principle paying customers are other businesses most media ownership will naturally lean Right and those that do go after the Center and Left clicks and views are either inclined to the sensationalist and superficial, without much real conviction or do have ideals of democracy and fair play, bringing good manners to a gutter fight and wondering why they are ineffective. The shift away from (further away from) unbiased and factual reporting to news and current affairs as political partisan marketing is looking like a winning combination, so they will probably just do it more. Whilst it looks like Trump and supporters have demonstrated a ready willingness to cheat it would take compelling, court appropriate evidence to make such charges and despite media massaged perceptions I expect official election oversight is competent enough to find it. I did wonder if US Democrats would have a "claim the election was rigged" playbook ready. Seems like some serious problems with polling predictions too - they probably expected to win.

One of the possible uses of AI is likely to be (already is?) the identification, tracking and targeting of political opponents and dissent. Successful revolutions may be becoming impossible. Civil wars, maybe with enough organized opposition. Palace coups, yes. The trough of despair between turning against tyranny and achieving a resurgent and strong democracy and rule of law is likely to be deep and costly and hard to climb out of. Expecting palace coups to bring a return to the rule of law seems a forlorn hope - they advance the most ruthless and lawless. I don't have any optimism that media, trad or social, will side with democracy and the rule of law over extreme partisanship; they will support the politics that advantages them as businesses and align with that of their paying customers - the businesses that advertise. The public is getting bombarded with so much that is false and misleading that what is true becomes indistinguishable.

I didn't expect good understanding of tariffs (a lot of don't know) but I didn't know there was such widespread misunderstanding (what people "know" being wrong) - not knowing what tariffs are for or who pays them. It was always about raising the prices of imported goods so people have no choice but to pay more for higher priced local goods - and in theory give protection and opportunity for local businesses. Ideally gaining time to invest in improvements that will make their goods competitive. Short term - some businesses and jobs are saved but prices go up. But if the necessary productivity improvements don't happen they stay high. In some ways it is the very inverse of free market capitalism - probably why, historically, free market ideologues opposed tariffs (but usually only in theory). I suspect in reality the businesses that most support tariff-free markets like that are in positions more like the Chinese are now - already low cost and very competitive and wanting other nations to take tariffs away. ie that is to their short term advantage, without much commitment to ideology. Like with carbon pricing... if it is well designed and works like it should then it can't be an ongoing source of government revenues that can replace other taxation; if it works the revenues should decline to zero as people turn to local goods instead of buying the (undesirable) imported goods and paying tariffs. Anyone claiming raising tariffs is an alternative to other taxes or even more wrong, that the other nation pays the tariff (seriously?) is trying to scam you. It hurts them economically - reduced exports, reduced profitability - as a consequence, but they aren't paying the tariffs. Of course what politicians say before and what they do after can be very different and US Congress may not agree to do all Trump says - some of that being contradictory. And of course affected nations put retaliatory tariffs on goods they import from the anti-competitive, anti-free market nation. Without the sustained commitment to raising productivity for domestic businesses - as protection for uncompetitive businesses - tariffs are inflationary - raising prices to no good effect.

If we have the technologies to take people to another star humanity will not need planets; artificial habitats should be easy in comparison. Humans that have been living in space for a long time may not feel the same (primitive) attraction for living on planets - may even find it disturbing and unnecessarily dangerous. I think the desire for new lands is less innate than historical with a strong survivorship bias - history written by descendants of people living in successfully "colonised/conquered" lands. I expect that for most humans making the most of their lives in the lands they were born into, without any strong urge to migrate has always been the majority. Earliest human migrations were into mostly familiar or similar environments that the tools and skills they carried with them were more than adequate to survive. Desperation when things were tough probably had more influence than any overarching urge to explore and migrate. There was a great abundance of resource rich environments reachable on foot and with simple boats. How Earth-like? For most of Earth's history Earth would not have been suitable for humans - not enough Oxygen for one thing. Is the biochemistry similar enough for compatibility? Even chirality can be different - mirror imaged compared to terrestrial biochemistry. Even aside from predators and diseases biology can make a great variety of poisons and allergens. I expect the uncontaminated biology and biochemistry for study to be the most valuable things about an Earth-like world to an interstellar capable humanity. Terraforming - deliberately introducing invasive Earth species to displace native life for the purpose of making it more Earthlike for colonists looks unnecessary, shortsighted and selfish to me.

Nothing wrong with the topics Night FM has posted per se, even if most of them are nothing new; lots of posts here are on topics that keep recurring. Just not convinced the member is engaging in discussion in good faith but that isn't unusual. The subjects can be provocative and some posts did press some of my buttons but there wasn't much in the way of reasoned or interesting arguments to follow or you'd see more participation from me. Pass over and move on. How to have more and more interesting topics that engage existing members and attract new ones? Going by more popular formats - keep on hammering those same controversial or partisan or divisive topics that press people's buttons over and over and then all over again even harder. Science forums like this suit me just fine but I'm headed into the old codger demographic.

Night FM is actually doubling down and defending enslavement and mass murdering as social engineering on the basis that the victims are loathsome (they deserve it?) and or will end their unhappiness (out of kindness?) Anyone who would do that to incels would do that to anyone they think is more loathsome than incels... given the anti-atheist themes presented on this site, Atheists perhaps? Incels want vouchers for prostitutes. Night FM wants to kill them - the incels that is. I know which I think is more loathsome. Is there a block user feature here?

?!! You are advocating commit mass murder and you want to call it "being merciful"? As someone who was a bit shy and socially inept in my youth it sounds like you want to kill people like me or send me to "work will set me free" style resorts... so kind and thoughtful and compassionate of you. But it sounds like hate to me. Not sure how the forum rules against hate speech apply but you have crossed a line with me. I know a lot of people do say things like "better dead" and it is just saying stuff - but even if not literally meaning it I find that kind of rhetoric abhorrent. Vile. You want to be part of a society that does things like that, where "good" people can and will work as gas chamber guards and firing squad participants? You imagine the consequences - to everyone else or to anyone else - will be good? I am trying to understand why you would suggest such things and can only hope this is some weird and insincere trolling, perhaps to provoke and incite awful atheists to propose doing that to religionists, ie to get to some version of "See? They deserve it!" as the conclusion. The alternative is that you actually mean it. I don't want you dead - not my thing. I would much prefer you wake up and change your mind. I'll try not to think badly of "True Christianity" because of the bad example you set and will assume these are your personal views. How you reconcile your stated desire to commit mass enslavement and murder with your religious beliefs will be up to you.

The procreation part is less significant - or at least a lot less hard work - than the caring and raising of young. That biological imperative to deal with the results of procreaton imbues a lot of animals - not just humans -with empathy or some equivalent, where a lot of behavior is devoted to the welfare of others; it takes no knowledge of gods or morality or even thinking it through and deciding and I would not call it "purpose", but for want of more nuance, humans trying to make sense of the world by thinking about it found it beneficial to frame it that way. For apes including humans the troupe and group is how their young are kept safe and cared for; even if an individual's own survival may (but doesn't always) take precedence they will care for their children. Their own children may have priority over others but there is overall benefit including to those children to looking out for everyone's children - as well as for other adults, who aid the providing of care for all the group's young. In dire circumstances it is more common amongst humans to require a willingness to sacrifice their lives than to revert to every individual for themselves; the group matters more than the individual. Self sacrifice for the good of others may be easier for some by believing something of themselves, if only in the memories of others, goes on after their death. I expect more applied science has been used to assure the food, health care and education of our young than for aiding successful procreation, although we do that too.

I expect most of the lucky Christians believe they can trace their line all the way back although there are those reliant on more recent 'revelations' or theological thinking. Most people accept what they are taught (if it doesn't overtly contradict their experience), true, but for science based knowledge the path is open to follow the evidence, logic and reasoning that underpins it. But scientific skepticism is a lot of work; to do it well requires becoming an expert. What is taught at school level is not built with or on faith, but relies on trust that was well earned before it became - in order to become - part of school curricula. Debates about various aspects of scientific knowledge when framed as between Religious that implicitly claim a primary role for Gods and magical miracles vs Scientific which rejects magical miracles as hypotheses for lack evidence (atheistic) aren't really adequate for testing the validity of the science based knowledge; I expect scientist rarely consider theological implications at all and are simply doing their jobs - determining what is true wrt the objects of their inquiries. Any explicit intent to disprove religious beliefs would be rare and unusual motivations. And, yes, some - even most - such debates are between people who aren't deeply knowledgeable, leaving endless nits to pick and having no likelihood of resolution of differences. As good a reason as any to limit my participation in them - but the misrepresentations of "atheists" as incapable of moral behavior and misrepresentations of widely accepted science as overtly anti-religious (scientist-atheists as enemies) can come across as passing judgement upon me, slanderously in too many cases, and that can press my buttons sufficiently to chime in. Not necessarily NightFM's thing but the "you'll suffer eternity in Hell" thing is especially abhorrent to me, especially when it comes with "you will deserve it" and worse again with "we will be pleased by that". I've known some very fine religious people, a credit to humanity; they seem unobsessed with proving anything and seem uninterested in making war with atheism and science.

Jesus is lucky to have you...