DanMP

imatfaal posted here a non-relativistic explanation for Sagnac effect. It is incorrect (he lost an r; typical for imatfaal) and the same thing I mentioned above it 3 times, but the point is that it shows that a non-relativistic solution is possible. You insisted that Sagnac effect is relativistic. I said: You never agreed to that, so please agree or explain how imatfaal solution is entirely relativistic.

swansont, you wrote some things to consider. Between them there is: 6. When you have been shown to be wrong, acknowledge it. You don't have to observe this rule?

Based on what? You know how much of the Universe "became" "dark" 100 years after Einstein's relativity? Considering this, you shouldn't be so sure. We all should be humble and open minded, not over-confident in old theories ... And a new theory must agree with the old one findings. Check my edited message above to see that mine does ...

I thought again about it and realized that the START photo/moment is seen also differently from your spaceship/train and the differences you mention are not only very small but also cancelled out from START to STOP, leaving the differences between the H-K clocks the same for all inertial frame/observers. Am I right? I said I want to lead you towards a simple/physical explanation for time dilation in matter, not that I will give you a complete answer. For me it's important here just to see if you are interested to pursue this idea, if you find it as interesting as the people that awarded Ryan's idea did. Only if you are, I will post my "pet theory". You have to admit that something must happen in atoms when force transmitting particles appear to move slower. The way to determine exactly what happens is by using quantum physics, not relativity, because QPh is the theory that describe the atom. Change the speed of light/interactions from c to a fraction of c, Fc, and see what happens with the energy levels in atoms. If energy levels in atoms change, than the interval for the "hyperfine transition" also changes, meaning that the frequency you measure in the atomic clock changes ... Calculate this and you will have the time dilation. Then apply it to see how this "modified" atomic clock would see the speed of light. I'm confident that you will get again c, not Fc. In my theory I used an over-simplified, almost naive, but logical approach and I obtained the fact that the speed of light in meters per second is always c, even it appears to change. Al our instruments are made of atoms, and they compensate any apparent change in light/interaction speed. This finding is in agreement with Einstein's relativity, so the maths may remain the same. Only the understanding changes (and much more than that, as you may see in my theory if you give me a pozitive feedback).

Ok than, let the STOP moment be a real stop, meaning that the man in the lab stops the clocks by pushing one button, "freezing" the displays. So, between START and STOP, 3 photons, one for each light clock, flew between mirrors with the same speed c, same time (different observers will not agree about the value, but will agree that the time was the same, between the START and STOP, for all clocks/photons) but completed different number of cycles. That can be explained by longer routes/paths taken by each photon (the "saw teeth" for kinematic time dilation and spacetime warping for gravitational time dilation). And this time, all the observers agree with the differences in path between the 3 clocks. We can mimic the result of the experiment by building light clocks with different distances between mirrors and keeping all on the same table, near the first one. We can adjust the distances until we get exact the same result. Or, we can keep the distance between mirrors identical and "adjust" (it is a thought experiment) the speed of 2 photons, until we get the same result. Now, consider that one mirror of a light clock is the nucleus of an atom and the other one electron in its cloud, and that electromagnetic force is considered to be transmitted through virtual particles travelling exactly like photons (same speed/path). In my opinion the change in path observed in light-clock photons translates in similar changes in paths for force transmitting particles between different elements of the atom, and this is what cause the time dilation in atoms, not the mathematics, not the frames. In order to verify this assumption, just calculate what a change in electromagnetic interraction speed does in an atom used in a real, atomic, clock. See how energy levels change ... an how the frequency you use to measure time (in atomic clocks) changes. I wrote this in a hurry, because I'm busy and forced by the moderator to do it now or never, so I'm sure you will have a great laught, but do the maths first and that laugh. This is not my "pet theory"! Just an idea from it, similar with Ryan's rewarded idea. My theory is much more than that.

Nothing changes between the "border" and the surface of the Earth. No more/less shift. Using spectroscopic measurements, as usual.

Ok, let's try again with the Hafele-Keating (H-K) experiment: We have 3 atomic clocks on a table, perfectly synchronized. We take a photo with their displays (the START moment) and then fly one around the globe westwards and another eastwards. When reunited on the same table, we take another photo with their displays (the STOP moment). Now, what we see in the STOP photo? We see that the clocks are no longer synchronic. There are differences between them, in nanoseconds, exactly how relativity predicted. If the clocks remain there, on the same table, they will keep having these differences as long as they function. So, what I'm trying to say is that any observer from any frame will agree with those differences. It is impossible to disagree with the end result recorded on the photo. Do you understand/agree until here? @Mordred

You think that Einstein Field Equations are a simple explanation for time dilation? Please don't close this discussion until we reach to a simple explanation. I hope you don't agree with the statement: "Everything that can be Invented has been Invented". I wrote in the beginning: This is not because I reject mathematics. It is because I have an idea on how a physical explanation should be and I want to lead you to it. That's the reason for "cherry-pick"-ing. On the other hand, I noticed the same "cherry-pick"-ing from the others. They lead me again and again towards mathematics and refuse to cooperate with me. There are a lot of questions I wrote still unanswered ... Last but not least, keep in mind that Einstein wrote his relativity more than 100 years ago. Since then we learned a lot about the Universe. To name a few: Higgs field, dark matter, dark energy. Back in his time, an intuitive relativity was not possible, but now it is. Just folow my lead and you will understand it. Another thing, English is not my first language, so it's harder for me to make myself clear. Also my computers are very old and slow ... Please have patience. I am pretty close to get where I want, so, again, please don't close this thread until we get to a simple explanation for time dilation in matter (atoms, molecules).

"frequency w" for what? What 'it "turns off" and you have none'? If you talk about redshift/blueshift of incoming electromagnetic radiations, there is no problem, no difference. We will have exactly the same shift. The shift occurs at the co-moving border and it is the same as if it ocurred at the observer on Earth. Nothing is changed in between.

The clocks travel in spacetime with the speed c, right? "The photon" in a light clock travel with the same speed, c, right? So, the distance traveled in space-time by the light clock is equal with the distance covered by "the photon" between mirrors in the same light clock, because there is only one time interval for that clock. In H.K. experiment, all the observers agreed with the time intervals measured by the clocks. After the clocks were reunited and the stop button pressed simultaneously, there is no way to see another end result from another frame. Agree? So, time dilation in light clocks is related to the distance travelled by the photons between mirrors.

I still don't understand why it should be a shift. Nobody replied to this. If there is no total linear frame dragging, rotational frame dragging should be considered just a (tiny) deformation of the space-time while the rotating massive object is passing through it. The instrument that measured it traveled with the Earth, so it was able to measure the rotation/deformation only for a tiny moment ...

You are an analogy? As far as I know you are not the Einstein Field Equations or an equation derived from them. I live in spacetime, so for me it's real enough. You think it isn't? I can move left-right, forward-backward, up-down, so at least space is real. Let the kinematic time dilation aside for now. In my theory the problem you mentioned is solved. In gravitational time dilation all observers agree. What is wrong in my considerations about gravitational time dilation above? How exactly?

A very real thing, for me, is a person, a tree, a car, something I can see, touch, smell, etc.. A less real thing is a word, a distance, the measured time. They are real for us, because we defined and use them, but they are invented, not discovered. We may call them abstract things. So, in my view, the real thing in our discussion/problem is considered space-time and less real, abstract, is the time we obtained using (real) instruments called clocks. In order to obtain a simple-explanation-for-time-dilation we have to understand how the real thing, spacetime, influences clocks in different ways, so they return different values for the time interval between 2 (same for all) events (in Hafele-Keating exp., the first event is the START moment, in the same place, and the second one is the STOP moment, when all 3 clocks are back at the starting point). If we consider just gravitational time dilation and light clocks, the answer is very simple: "the real thing", spacetime, influences the clocks by being more or less curved. That means more travel time between mirrors for "the photon" in the light clock situated closer to the massive object, or (as in cars odometers analogy) longer route in spacetime for different clocks. Strange considers that this is actually the same thing, and it is: both "the photon" in each light clock and the clock as a whole travel same time, with the same speed, c, trough spacetime, so the distance covered in the curved spacetime is exactly the same. Same thing, as Strange wrote. Do you agree with the above or you know other influences?

As far as I understand, analogy is only the one with car odometers. The fact that we have different routes through space-time for different clocks is something deduced from/in Einstein's relativity. Am I wrong? And the light clock, although is impossible to build, is just a simple example of a clock, used everywhere on the internet, including Wikipedia, not an analogy.

in what sense? The second one is your "shocker" explanation. Now you say it is wrong?!? Nobody else wants to comment on this?

The result is real, I always agreed with this. I didn't say that it should be like a force. So please say what is, not that isn't something you supposed I claimed. Please try to give more than a guess. It's important.

Don't discuss my theory than. Just use GR to calculate the outcome of the first test proposed, if you can, or let it there for someone who can, or for someone able to do the test. No gradual effect. Total, until somewhere far from Earth, or nothing. And is not a "turn of" of all kinematic time dilation. Just the one caused by the orbital speed around the Sun. Please elaborate. I don't understand why it should be a shift. How you explain rotational frame dragging if the frame that rotates doesn't travel with the Earth. (This is not an argument in my theory!)

If this "time in other frames" you mentioned is a real "thing" you should be able to show how it influences the behavior of the atom. It's not enough to know how it is derived/calculated from the model (Mordred, this is a reply to your comments too). As well as quantum physics explains electromagnetic interaction using particles, instead of relying just on the abstract notion of field, as classical physics does, we should be able to show what exactly determines atom behavior, relating to what we call time dilation. This is true at least if we want a simple explanation of time dilation in matter (atoms, molecules, etc.). On the other hand, let's focus on this: So, we have "different routes through space-time" and in time dilation the route is longer, right? If we consider only gravitational time dilation and the light clock mentioned/commented in the first 2 posts of this thread, the longer route in space-time mentioned above means that "the photon" that "bounce" back and forth between the mirrors would have to travel an even longer route, or that longer route/path mentioned there is the same thing?

Thank you. Please let the thread open. I didn't have time to reply and I have at least few things to correct. Sorry for the quotes. I copy/pasted it from a previous post and forgot that it was not an exact quote. Anyway, my version "The Hafele–Keating experiment was considered in a frame of reference at rest with respect to the center of the earth" is not so different than "Considering the Hafele–Keating experiment in a frame of reference at rest with respect to the center of the earth...". Also, the link was there (for the second time), so it was clear enough that the 3 clocks where not at rest in the same frame. They where only considered from one, the one we both mentioned. I will repeat my question, corrected, but until than we should agree on what is time, because we have 2 options: something abstract, defined and used by us, as it is pressure or temperature, or something very real, as the notion of spacetime fabric suggests. If it’s real than we should be able to show/explain how this real "thing" determines clocks and atoms "behaviour" (as quantum physics does explain interactions). If it’s just abstract, a result of our measurements, than we should be able to show why our instruments return different time intervals in different situations. So this being said, I repeat my question, corrected: Please explain Hafele–Keating experiment (below), considering that we don't measure time directly, we use instruments, made of atoms, that count certain repetitive and reliable events. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele–Keating_experiment The Hafele–Keating experiment was considered from a frame of reference at rest with respect to the center of the earth. So we have 3 clocks that counted different amounts of nanoseconds between the same START and STOP. So, considered from the same fame, different clock rates ... Why exactly? And please use Ryan's rewarded idea (see above). By the way, I made a mistake: this topic is not about Ryan’s idea, it’s about a simple explanation for time dilation, so it should remain open until we find one.

Thank you. I searched in it but didn't find the experiments I suggested. I have justifications, don't wory. Have patience ... And a little respect. You called my theory a waste of time, now you say that's based on beliefs, and all without even reading it. This is not nice. As I said, have patience. Meantime, if you have any prediction about the first experiment, based on GR, please post it. If you don't have a mathematical prediction, why you dismiss my prediction? Base on what? On beliefs that relativity can't be intuitive maybe? Those are beliefs. Mine are logical justifications based on facts, not beliefs.

Sorry for the confusing link. If I’ll decide to post my theory I will post a link to it here. Until then please focus your knowledge of GR on the first test or just leave it for now. The daily variations I mentioned may be too small to detect, but the seasonal ones should be detectable. More when/if I will post my theory.

If we have total linear frame dragging, the effect is big, as I explained. Why we should have it? My theory makes relativity very intuitive. Everything (time dilation, curved spacetime, frame-dragging, twin paradox, Shapiro time delay, static mass increase, all the peculiar things predicted by Einstein's relativity and confirmed by experiments) becomes easy to understand intuitively. In the same way I don't need mathematics to explain why the speed of a passenger airplane doesn't have any influence inside the plane (no wind inside), I don’t need mathematics to make my predictions. (This was just an example of logic vs. mathematics. It has nothing to do with my theory.) Anyway, my theory and my predictions are not important here. Only the experimental results are, and maybe, Einstein’s relativity predictions, because my theory is consistent with it, the only "mathematical difference" being that the invariance of c is explained, not postulated, so I expect that a correct application would give similar results. I wrote "far" with bold: The reason is impossible to understand without my theory. It should be easy to do them, at least the one with the poles. I expect small variations in spring/autumn.

Sorry, I studied GR 25 years ago, didn’t use it at all, so I really cannot apply it. I wrote: so, I'm not "thinking the difference in orbital velocity at perigee and apogee". The speed of the "equator clock" and its altitude are constant, no? Anyway, I'm asking if these 2 tests were performed.

Nobody agrees?

This is the Sagnac in air/vacuum example I mentioned at least 3 times above. How about the fiber optic conveyor depicted in Fig.5 of the wiki page?