Tampitump

I'm going to withdraw to save myself some grief. I recognize that there are some pretty damning limits to my wits, and that I'm dealing with much smarter people here. I'm going to wave my white flag, and cop out of this one while the gettin' is still good. After all, this whole thing got started after me expressing my beliefs against socialism. I'm out-classed, you guys win. Congratulations.

You still fail to understand where I'm coming from. Even if I'm wrong about Islam, and Islam is perfectly peaceful and wonderful, my positions still stand. What I'm saying is that no one should be put down for criticizing any idea. Many liberals now want to slap the label "bigot" on you for even mentioning it most of the time. I just watched a statement from Hillary Clinton at my grandparent's house where she called half of Trump's supporters "deplorable, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic....." and all the other "phobics" you can think of. She might be right, but many of these labels are generated to stifle debate, and to deprive free speech. It's a way of silencing legitimate criticisms of these things that liberals like to ignore. Most liberals want to ignore the barbarism of Islam. Mentioning the possibility that some muslims are, in fact, not peaceful or supportive of western values kills their narrative of high-brown, elite, bleeding-heart liberalism, so they ignore these parts of the muslim world and call people "bigots" for mentioning them in order to end the debate. This is true whether Islam is violent or not. In fact, I'll go ahead and concede that Islam is perfectly peaceful and wonderful for the sake of this conversation, and you'll still be on the wrong end of the argument.

Okay, fair enough Phi for All. My use of the term "small gov't" is a gov't that doesn't get involved in my decisions regarding what I should believe, what I can do with my own body, what I can do with my money, etc etc etc. I've said repeatedly that I don't advocate an irrelevant gov't with no power. I'm more of a cultural libertarian.

I have muslim friends I see at my local library all the time. Wonderful people, I have no problem with them. Still doesn't change my position about the doctrine. I never watch the "media" you are referring to. I don't get TV, cable, Dish, DirectTV, or any means of watching TV where I'm at. Though I do watch tons of youtube. I usually get my information from public intellectuals, books, poll results, and just reading as much information as I can. My position is not that all muslims are bad, or that all Islamic doctrine is bad. My position is that I DO have problems with the doctrine, and I reserve my right to criticize them, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong. Many modern liberals (and I've had it happen to me so many times on social media and in public) want to denounce people like me as a "racist bigot", and champion for my free speech being taken away. This is an attempt to stifle debate, and to put down people who may have legitimate objections to things. I'm a staunch opponent of postmodernism, 3rd wave feminism, cultural-relativism, moral-relativism, and anti-free speech positions. I consider myself Hitchens-hawkish, and Sagan-smart (though I'm not nearly as smart as these guys). That's it. I'm a liberal guys...a LIBERAL. I'm just a more thoughtful, non-dogmatic liberal who doesn't think that anyone who insinuates that Islam is violent or intolerant is a racist bigot. I agree that Christians are often bigoted against muslims, and though they would probably side with me on this debate, they would do so on the grounds of their own ignorant, religious beliefs. Their answer to bad, absurd religion, is more bad, absurd religion. Christians don't criticize Islam because they want to rid the world of harmful religious dogmas, they do it on the grounds of promoting their own ancient, dogmatic, absurd, religious bullshit. There is not a topic in this world that is beyond my right or ability to criticize. Its time Islam be given equal criticism opportunities as Christianity. Most liberals never pause to call out white, conservative Christians, but if you want to criticize muslims for their beliefs, often times you get considered a "bigot". I've experienced this too many times. I see it in our culture. If it were a white man from Kentucky adhering to fundamentalist Islam, he'd be equally subject to my criticism as someone who is brown-skinned and from the middle east. The LAST thing I am is racist. It just boils down to the fact that we must be able to talk honestly about the most important dangers that face us. Right now, I feel the Islamic world needs the help of liberals to reform. We have to recognize the oppression of women, homosexuals, atheists, secularists, children, and all sorts of other groups. Instead of doing this, many liberals today deny this traits about Islam, and think you are a bigot for implying as much. They don't realize that they are throwing these people under the bus, the women who are treated so poorly, the children who are genitally mutilated, the homosexuals who are thrown from roofs and stoned, etc. They are excusing these offenses to human rights in the name of political correctness, and they can stick it where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned.

Umm...nothing. What the Quran's policy of tolerance towards people NOT "of the book"?

And you seem to have a unicorn version of Islam informed by Reza Aslan and Cenk Uygur. I do not get my info about Islam from newspapers. I listen to people on all sides of this debate, from Noam Chomsky on one end of the spectrum, to Sam Harris on the other. Of course I agree with this. Good job appealing to the low-hanging fruit for your argument. And you accuse me of straw-manning? There is no doubt Christian doctrine holds the exact same prescriptions for barbarism as Islam. Christianity has been bombarded by secularism and forced to reform. Most Christians only conform to the sweet, soft versions of Jesus' words and don't enforce the barbaric passages. Even the ones who do are nowhere near of the scope and scale of equivalent fundamentalists in the Islamic world. Fully agree. Good thing I'm not doing that. Criticizing an idea is not the same as criticizing people for their skin color, ethnicity, or nationality. I see Islam as an idea as being like any other idea. If your ideology is not Islam, but supports things like the murder of apostates, female genital mutilation, the murder of homosexuals, and the oppression of women, I don't want to you around me, at least not until you've shed those ideas. Has nothing to do with being a bigot. I recognize that the most people hurt by Islamic atrocity are other muslims. I want to save these people from the poison of this ideology. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ Just take a gander at how many people in the Muslim world support cutting off the hands of thieves, killing people who leave the faith, stoning as the appropriate punishment for adultery, and that sharia should be the law of the land. I'll grant you that many muslims don't support this barbarism, and you'll still be on the loosing end of this argument. Poll results paint a very illiberal picture for adherents to this ideology. Okay, whatever. You still lose. The "patriarchy" as it is defined by third-wave feminists is a total myth. Their ideology is irrational. The idea that there is a systemic, patriarchal conspiracy against women is just total bullshit. I don't deny that somewhere in the country, there are sexist pigs who discriminate against women, but there are just some things women don't excel at, that men do. Conversely, there are many things women tend to excel at the men do not. For instance, the nursing profession is dominated by women. Sounds like a feminist conspiracy against men if you ask me. I'll tell you what I think. I think YOU are exactly the kind of regressive liberal I'm referring to. Everything in this post of yours proves my point. You think I'm a bigot for having these opinions, you tacitly expressed it. When I criticized Islam, you immediately went to Christianity and Judaism in the most obscurantist fashion. You can't stand that I would have the tenacity to call out these people, their religion, and their culture for their atrocious ideals, and you are engaging in the soft bigotry of low expectations with muslims. You don't realize how much you just proved my point with your post here. By reacting to me as if I were an ignorant bigot and defending Islam and all the other things I'm attacking is part and parcel of what I'm talking about. Nothing I said was bigoted, hateful, or racist. I'd be happy with a muslim as my next door neighbor, or even one of my best friends if they dropped the barbaric parts of Islamic doctrine. These are attacks on what I feel to be irrational ideologies, not on people.

I post two videos and you say I like videos? What about all the videos you posted in our little evolution debate a few weeks ago, huh video boy? lol.....just kidding man. Thanks, I'll take a look at them. You'll likely not convert me to a socialist or a far left liberal. I support all the bleeding-heart stuff liberals support. But I approach them from a conservative trajectory. I support small gov't. I support SOME socialism, but not a socialist economy wherein we are ensuring everyone gets paid more "equally". Some people are not worthy of good pay. They haven't earned it. Of course this does not mean that I support laissez-faire capitalism that is predatory and unregulated. I don't support an irrelevant, powerless gov't. Again, I belong to ZERO political factions. I'm a free-thinker, however effective, and a staunch opponent or regressive-liberalism, feminism, postmodernism, cultural-relativism, moral-relativism, anti free-speech, and victim-culture. I see all of this within modern liberal ideology, and I feel that liberals should denounce the current liberal platform. We should be the champions of free speech, instead of systemically trying to stifle it with safe spaces, and instilling postmodernist ideology into academia. Look up Gad Saad's podcast "The SAAD Truth" on youtube. His views are pretty much the same as mine. Right, and I don't want to come off as having that attitude or position. But I DO think that Islam is mostly terrible. I do. If the idea weren't called a religion or a "culture", you would have no problem detesting its absurdities and atrocities with the utmost ferocity and ruthlessness. These are just ideas, and they are despicable ideas at that. They are irrational, unscientific, and cause much more harm than good. I can't think of one good thing caused by Islam that isn't directly countered by another unthinkably cruel and inhumane thing.

Islam - One of many religions I find to be preposterous and unworthy of respect. I criticize it all the time. Many liberals now think that Islam should be exempt from such criticism on the grounds that it is "racist" or "bigoted". I say screw those liberals. I have the right to criticize anything I want. True discussions cannot take place when free speech is prohibited. This should not be confused with a hatred towards muslims. I recognize that the people who are affected by the absurdities of Islam the most are other muslims. It is, I think, the single most illiberal and oppressive belief system on the planet in this day, and that the relatively high support of doctrinal barbarism in the Islamic world is indicative of its incompatibility with secular, western values. There is nothing bigoted or racist about that statement. True liberals should be speaking against the doctrine of Islam, and sticking up for women and children in the muslim world, instead of engaging in the stupid fallacies of moral-relativism and postmodernist nonsense to try and excuse this type of behavior in the name of political correctness. My position is merely an honest recognition of the obvious. People who deny the barbarism of Islam, and the relatively high support for its more heinous prescriptions in the muslim world are engaging in the highest obscurantism. That's my opinion on that. Feminism - I'm a second-wave feminist, which was a movement to gain rights for women when women were legitimately deprived of rights. Many of today's feminists engage in fallacious, non-scientific, perpetually dishonest methodologies to try to assert their agenda. The talking points of third-wave feminists are bigoted against men, and propose conspiracies of a patriarchal system which does not exist. I have never met one man who wasn't unequivocally supportive of women doing anything they want to do. Over half of the political offices in my county are occupied by women. My state capital has a female mayor. The most acclaimed women's college basketball coach in my state was a woman. This so-called "patriarchy" is a myth as far as I'm concerned, and if it did exist, I would be the first one to oppose it. Third-wave feminist culture is largely what allows postmodernist ideology to penetrate government and academia, allowing tolerance for multi-culturalism even when the influx of new cultures in the western world hold the antithesis of western values (i.e. Islam). I strongly oppose third-wave feminism for these reasons. Black lives Matter - I better let Milo handle this one: Fully agree. Nothing in my position negates this. College safe spaces on public campuses are NECESSARILY a violation of the first amendment. BTW, I never said that, for instance, cancelling speakers at universities, cancelling people's shows, or banning people from internet communities was a violation of the first amendment. They clearly are not. It is the ethic I am protesting. You should not deplatform people you disagree with. You should argue the point with proper rhetoric. I object to the liberals who hold these values and am not accusing every instance of being 1st amendment violations. Of course, because those are legitimate crimes. Child pornography is a legitimate violation of children. Plagiarism is illegal because it does harm other people. You can make monetary gains through someone else's work, etc. These are examples of the use of speech harming or affecting someone else in a demonstrable, cut-dry way. Whether or not me calling someone fat hurts that person is questionable. Some people may be affected by it, some may not. But me using someone else's words as my own for personal gain can affect that person in more ways than just emotionally. All of the instances you are citing are examples in which speech is demonstarbly harmful enough that the law can be justified in criminalizing it. There needs to be tangible reasons to criminalize something.

It was a spin-off of another thread. There's nothing wrong with being general. The topic was defined in the title.

No, I can't possibly be that informed. I can only address the information that is presented to me. My opposition is not necessarily the entire package of Islam, or the entire package of BLM, or feminism, or anything. My problem is when liberals try to stifle debate with safe spaces, political correctness, and all the other attacks on free speech. In no way do I support the country bumpkin, right wing bigotry and racism that comes from the part of the country I live in, but I at least see a very big threat to western values in Islam. And it occurs to me that there is a high amount of support for doctrinal barbarism in the Islamic world. Black lives matter seems much too propagandistic to be legitimately concerned with black lives. Victim culture does not solve anything, and to rise above these illnesses, we need Rosa Parks and Martin Luther Kings in this world, not regressives who want to paint this as a one-sided issue and all white Americans as racist bigots. Black lives matter should be addressing all of the ills that exist within the black community, which include black on black crime among other things. My biggest problems with all of these movements is the intolerant nature of them. If you so much as hold a door open, or pull out a chair for a modern feminist, you're patriarchal. If you try to address the inner workings of the black community, you're a racist. If you so much as suggest that Islam has anti-western values, your a bigot or "islamophobe". This is certainly not true for all liberals, but it does exist, and is an increasing phenomenon as evidenced by things like college safe spaces, and the current positions of the Democratic platform. Issues need to be discussed honestly, and we can't have victim culture and intolerance to free-speech killing the discussion. I got nothing for you man. I'll either have to concede you the win, or you'll have to give me time to digest, research, and consider everything you put on the table here. Decisions, decisions..... Who gave my OP a negative rating? I want to know. Speak up. Who is the little pussy what was so offended by nothing to give a virtually content-free post a negative rating? I'm seriously getting POed at this forum. I thought the people here would be way smarter and less pathetically petty than this. Whoever you are, you are a pettifogging little bitch. I don't care how rude or indecent the people here think I am for saying this. Go fly a kite.

Phi for All, I created a thread for the socialism/capitalism, right/left politics debate. Check it out.

In light of recent debates I seem to have initiated on the Hillary Clinton thread, and the amount of people who think I'm wrong, here's a thread for it. Discuss.....

Little of both. I'm definitely parroting, but I have witnessed these things it and agree with these positions. Again, not right wing. I'm a human being and I belong to absolutely ZERO political factions. I adopt position based on their merits, and based on what my assessment of them are. No boxes are the right shape to put me into. Are you talking about me?

Then set me straight then iNow my man. Lets hear where I have misrepresented Bernie, and how misinformed I am.

You do realize that's not an argument?

Oh, my bad for not being perfect, while simultaneously assuming the people here were slightly more open-minded and willing to have a nice convo. Bernie pitched the aspect of socialism that is really at the heart of socialism, and the part I mostly object to. Raise taxes, take money from others to make sure everyone is on the same plane, regardless of talent, skill, or ambition. At the end of the day, I support smaller gov't, not a completely irrelevant or defunct gov't. I'm not sure what is missing from Bernie's proposals that would qualify it from full-on socialism, but it wasn't far from it. All the objectionable elements were there.

I'm perfectly fine with that. Withdraw the label when and where it is no longer applicable. In some senses I'm a libertarian, in others I'm a liberal. May labels burn in the hottest pit of hell as far as I'm concerned. Labels are bullshit. They confine you to only one section of the buffet.

College "safe spaces", radical feminism (or feminaziism), social justice warrior culture, referring to anyone criticizes Islam as "bigots" or "racist", Black Lives Matter, etc etc etc. All of these are irrational ideologies of the far left. Most of them are staunch opponents of free speech, and are, themselves, bigoted.

I'm still in shock from the slippery slopes and seemingly reactionary words of Phi for All's post. You said "(with your outlook)", as if you fully understood and had accurately summarized my views. Your post is part and parcel why I'm fed up with the left. Suggest something may be wrong with any left position, and risk get your head bitten off and slapped with labels and accused of positions you don't hold. I'm against America adopting a socialized economy. Yes, I recognize that some forms of socialism help this country work and without them many people would suffer, but that's not what I'm getting at or opposing. What I oppose is larger government stepping in to have such control over your money, to decide how much your ambitions and hard work will pay off for you, and to take a good chunk of the money that your ambitions and hard work have earned you so that others can be on more equal financial grounds with you. Nuh uh, buddy. I ain't supportin' nuthin' like 'at.

Of course I support all of those things, and guess what, I'm still opposed to a fully socialized economic system. When we are being forced to pay a good chink of our yearly income to make sure everyone is on an equal level, then I'll have a problem with it. I think the government is there to take as much money as is needed to provide the nice services to the general public and make the country a safe and pleasant place to live, but not a penny more. I'm happy to pay taxes that help truly needy people and provide for all of those great things you mentioned, but I'm not okay living within a socialized system that requires people who have won so much for themselves to give up a huge chunk of it to allow others who didn't excel to live on a more equal plane. I strongly strongly STRONGLY.....strongly strongly strongly oppose that.

No, I'm not a Republican. Republican is a corporate party pieced together by a group of people who decide what platform and positions the party is going to take on board. The Republican party does not equal conservatism or right wing politics. It is merely a party that is mostly of the right. Very important is that distinction.

I voted for and supported Bernie during the primary. Now I see how wrong I was. The more I understand about politics, the more I realize that there are exactly ZERO candidates on offer that I would even remotely support. But one thing is for sure, I don't support bigger government or a socialized economic framework. I'm a libertarian, and my support for things like LGBT rights, pro choice, and drug legalization are actually conservative positions. I support small government, but unlike the republican party, I support it on all things. Republicans support small gov't on all things that don't involve their personal beliefs, but when it comes to those, then they want the gov't to step in and impose those beliefs. I feel that the left's new platform is shaping up to be a secular version of the same kind of intolerance. Attacks on free speech, victimhood culture, PC bullshit etc. Not saying this is Bernie's doing, but I realize now just how opposed to socialism and far left ideology I am. The closer you get to that, the closer you are to tyranny and less freedom.

I made a new friend at college who is in my calculus class. He came over to my house to study for the first exam. We had lunch and got into some good conversations. We agreed politically on just about everything we talked about. He seemed like a really smart guy. He brought over his guitar so we could play some, and when he pulled his guitar out the case, I noticed that it had tons of stickers on it. One of the stickers read "Truth > Darwin" with the "truth" fish eating the "Darwin" fish. There were other Christian/religion-themed stickers on there too. I told him that I liked his truth/Darwin sticker, to which he replied, "oh yeah, its pretty cool... are you a believer in Darwinism?" I asked him what he meant by "Darwinism", and he said, "evolution." I replied "yes". To which he said, "oh, right on." I asked him if he ACCEPTED evolution, to which he kind of paused and said, "no, man I don't" We had a pretty long conversation about it after that. He was a very good person to talk to because he was respectful and cool with everything I said. I treated him and his position with respect, while presenting the reasons why I felt he should accept evolution. I also respectfully asked him what he believed and why, giving him plenty of time to express his opinion. I'm not sure if I got through to him on the evolution thing. I think he was very stunned that an atheist was so nice, so respectful, and supportive of his right to his beliefs. He expressed that he was glad to meet me, and that he had never met anyone like me. Perhaps that's the key to creating free-thinkers. Just be nice, be respectful. Present your evidence and reasons for your position, but never demean people. My new friend is a smart guy. Because he rejects evolution says nothing about his intelligence as far as I'm concerned. He's just not been lucky enough to be exposed to the correct information, or a scientific way of thinking.

You talking to me?