wallflash

The electrical code is not anecdotal . Feel free to get a copy and read it . It has an entire section on building load calculations based on sq footage and type of equipment being installed Neither is the power company requirements. Go to your local power company and ask if they calculate total electric and gas homes differently when figuring their return on investment in building to a house not immediately on the grid . My claims on the grid system were also substantiated by 2 different links . Not a single anecdotal claim in these, my friend As far as I can tell, the only anecdotal claim I have made is regarding the 8000 amp service the power company refused to install. This also can be checked for accuracy. Go to your power company and tell them you are building a 2000 sq ft office building and want a 2000 amp service so you know your service will be adequate under all conditions. After you submit your load calculations to them , come back here and let us know what size they would actually install

After 40 yrs , 30 of them holding a master license , yes, I understand it . Again, disagreement with others does not equal lack of knowledge, especially in my day job I’ve done for 40 yrs . Heat pumps vs electric heaters is not an issue . Moving gas heat to electric is . Let’s stay with the topic please . The efficiency of a heat pump over conventional electric heat has no relevance to moving from gas heat to electric heat . I am , BTW, paying close attention to what others tell me . The fact that I don’t agree does not indicate inattention, it indicates I feel my facts are more correct , AND I have posted out where I believe this to be so .

No offense , ( and I do truly mean it ) , but I don’t need to address one example . I have the electrical code and the electric company rules on building to your house to back me up . You must explain why the code requires a larger electrical service on a total electric home if the amount used will be the same as a gas appliance home .

Sorry , no moaning at all from me I stated in the OP that I would like to hear possible solutions AND hear about the societal and economic impacts , AND have them rated from strongly positive to disastrously negative . The point being not to just come up with ideas , but to see how workable in reality those ideas would be . I suspect most aren’t that workable in reality , and not much I’ve seen here alters that opinion . I could have been wrong in insisting on a 5 yr out limit . Obviously the real solution will be more gradual and take longer , but I did it in specific response to the oft heard cries that we must do something NOW or unavoidable disaster awaits us . From what I’m seeing there is not much past a slight move to renewable energy that we can do NOW , despite the stridency that we must do so . Real workable solutions will be gradual, expensive , and take time . Maybe 20-25 yrs, maybe more . It is/was a thought experiment on IMMEDIATE actions, if any were found to be available that would actually work . I can guarantee from experience that moving to total electric will increase the load . I am in the business . If I build a house that has gas heat and appliances , I can get by installing a 100 amp service if desired by the owner . If the house is all electric I must install a 200 amp service at minimum , on a standard size house . There is a reason for this . In addition, the code used to be that in connecting a mobile home if it had gas heat you could put it on a minimum 60 amp breaker . If electric heat , even with all other gas appliances , it had to be 100 amp. So over 50% increase anticipated by the electrical, moving to double , just on heat alone . I think the 60 minimum might have been eliminated , but it illustrates my point nonetheless . The electric companies can also guarantee you this fact . If you build a house around here not immediately in the area of a power line , and apply for electric service , you have to fill out a form describing the square footage , all your major appliances , with which ones will be in gas and which ones on electric . The purpose is for them to calculate how much electricity they will be able to sell you, and measure that against the cost of building in to your house . They have a formula that calculates the payback over x number of years . If they don’t show them selling you enough electricity to meet getting your connection for free , you must pay the difference up front out of your pocket . Their calculations specifically take into account that you will use more electricity in a total electric home than one with gas appliances, which is why you must give them this info . BTW , I will be shortly leaving for a weekend camping trip . A lack of response over a couple of days does not mean anything more than I am in the woods not looking at the Internet Everyone have a nice enjoyable weekend . Sincerely

Obtuse about nerd being an insult? Perhaps you should ask the poster here that has “supernerd “ in his avatar if he gets offended every time he reads here Oh wait, supernerd is an actual rank here . It appears you need to be upset at the forum owners .I find it laughable that this is an issue . I refer to myself as a science nerd all the time . As for flaws in my arguments, you have the opportunity to show them whenever you wish . Feel free to do so . I am not bothered by learning I was looking at something wrong, but I am equally unimpressed by claims of errors that don't back it it by showing them

LOL . I humorously included myself in the nerd category and explained how I meant it . I guess I’m going to have to go bang my head against the wall 10 times in penance for insulting myself . Have a a nice day

What real facts and figures do you want ? I have supplied links to sites describing the condition of the grid . You choose to denigrate them , even though one is an excerpt from a book and not an ad piece, and I’m not sure how the other counts as “fluff” unless one is simply searching for a reason to reject it . I think the fact that most homes and businesses in America are connected to the grid to be self evident . It’s like asking me to prove that most Americans drive cars . Local distributed generation simply means plants closer to the locations they serve . They are still on the grid. So if you can be more specific I would be glad to see what I can do . I have the facts on my side , so I do not mind presenting them if I know which ones are desired, and I know that they will be duly considered and not summarily rejected because they do not say what the questioner desires

I will link a couple of sites I saw recently when I find them . Both make the case that the entire electric grid will have to be rebuilt for the modern all electric no fossil fuel age . One put the rebuild estimate at about $5 trillion in current dollars , if I recall . The other made the point that part of the necessity of the rebuild is to make the grid “smarter “ , to be able to read and adjust to peak demands and low demands in various locations at once and reroute things as necessary. https://www.fastcompany.com/3035149/how-to-fix-the-ailing-electric-grid https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/the-old-dirty-creaky-us-electric-grid-would-cost-5-trillion-to-replace-where-should-infrastructure-spending-go-68290 Note that the system described as dirty , old , and creaky is referring to the CURRENT system based on supplying our CURRENT needs . Not what could possibly be twice what we use now if our society goes total electric in homes and businesses . While I can’t speak for Europe, although I suspect it is similar, the US is not overbuilt .It is built to peak demand , which may only happens for minutes at a time a few times a day , and so for the vast majority of the day is “overbuilt “ relative to normal demand, but you have to build to peak demand . This confuses some folks who see 20% of the capability being used most of the day . But as more things go on the grid , that peak demand rises along with it , and the grid is not purposefully overbuilt to handle unlimited growth . I experience this first hand . We just built a million square foot building . The original plans calculated out to a 4000 amp transformer from the utility company. The owners have plans for doubling their capacity in the next couple of years so they wanted an 8000 amp one . The utility asked for the plans and load calculations on this extra expansion . The owner replied they don’t have it, it’s future planning . The utility company replied they don’t build for what may happen in the future, you have to show you need the 8000 now . The utility company ended up putting the 4000 amp in . That’s how it works . As to a few scattered places with generators and off the grid , certainly there are . They make up a small percentage of the total . I’m not really sure what the original point was in questioning whether most of the country is connected to the power grid , but they are . A small fraction that is not does not change that . Most are fossil fueled generators with fossil fuel appliances in the house , so in effect these places are for the most part 100% CO2 emitting homes , which I took to be the problem here , and not an example to follow If your Ethernet port connection was not a reference to connecting your computer to a utility providing internet connection to establish a similar comparison for the electric utility pulling power form your vehicle , then I again don’t see the relevance . My objections though do not come from the technological aspect of it . You may feel that people resisting being assigned charging times and having to submit info to establish your proper “need” , and be ranked in order of importance to have their vehicle prepared for use to be irrelevant . I assure you those folks will not feel the same if and when such a plan is attempted to be put in place. Folks that , in the US anyway, get to vote .

We are “looking into it “ as part of this discussion . The fact that we seem to disagree in no way indicates a lack of knowledge on my part I am not sure what relevance you see in comparing it to the Internet . Are we allowed to access the Internet only at approved times based on how important we are judged to be when we apply for Internet access? I don’t see the connection you wish to make between the Internet and a utility removing electricity from my vehicle for use elsewhere, made , ironically, while simultaneously mocking my example of a cost overrun in making a point about pie in the sky projections instead of realistic ones

I merely present realistic problematic issues with the idea. These issues are, or will be, real, whether one likes it or not. It isn't "it wont work, it wont work, nanny nanny boo boo" , it's be more realistic and less rosy in painting the picture . Often times such ideas are based on the best case, pie in the sky projection and ignore basic reality. That new nuclear plant will cost only 3 billion. Later on its, well wait, now its 7 billion. At the end its well, it ended up costing 11 billion. Cost overruns. You expect that Americans will be willing to submit to having to register for charging times on the EVs, accept some sort of ranking of importance on when their cars get charged, and be willing to allow the utility to DIScharge their car when it gets home for use elsewhere. We can hold differing opinions on the likelihood of this ( mine is its about the same as winning the lottery ) , but to build a system based on this presumption would be folly. It would have to be mandated by law to be sure this was going to work.

By nerds I simply and humorously mean science junkies or science enthusiasts who aren’t actually employed as scientists but follow it as a hobby or pastime . I am a science nerd with limited capabilities. I mostly read . But I enjoy learning what I can about physics and especially astrophysics and astronomy . So I had no intention of insulting myself

In the US this will present enormous societal difficulties even if the technology were currently in place , which it isn’t and won’t be in 5 yrs . Essentially you are saying that when a person drives home and plugs in his car the grid will have the right to drain his car to feed other sources outside his house , and that there will be a schedule of charging based on the perceived need and importance of the end user . This also doesn’t take into account things like emergencies . I come home , plug my EV in, the system depletes my already depleted EV ( since I just used it to go to and from work ) to send electricity elsewhere, but suddenly I have an emergency of any sort that I need to drive 100 miles to handle . But my car has been discharged to provide power back into the grid system , so now I am without a functioning vehicle if my destination is further than the mileage capability of my car . Even in the best scenario , I can only charge my cars when the system allows me to charge them , and I must submit my needs to some authority for approval and classification . No American will willingly go for this arrangement . You would have to pass legislation mandating this system as part of an overall climate crisis solution . And then find a way to keep people from leaving their EVs unplugged until the assigned charging time so the system didn’t drain from theirs beforehand . Im not trying to be contrary, I’m just trying to keep the discussion realistic and perhaps show the difficulties we face in many of the solutions . I prefer that over unrealistic ideas that might sound good and feel good but aren’t truly workable .

I’m not discounting anything . This is a thread created for posters to put forth their ideas . Please feel free to do so . Power generation just happened to be the first topic on my list in the OP , and I have presented difficulties with it , including the increased pressure on the electrical grid if we move away from fossil fuel appliances and vehicles to electric ones , which seems a logical first step given that electric cars and appliances currently exist . Can rooftop solar run an entire standard size house , including fridge , WH, dryer, stove and oven , heater , and now EV chargers ? It’s an honest question, I don’t know the capabilities of it . What happens on cloudy days ? What sort of storage is needed to provide for a whole house with EV charge capability when the sun is not shining ( as it does every day for an approximate range of 8- 12 hours ) ? Im interested in realistic ideas , and reserve the right to point out flaws in idealistic ideas that don’t deal realistically with our current situation .

True . My point in bringing up EVs was that even solutions that are close at hand in some respects ( EVs DO exist and are not speculative) present difficulties in implementing . That is really one of the points of this thread . We do not have the power capabilities to use EVs en masse now . We don’t have the capability of manufacturing them quickly to make a quick switchover , even ignoring all other social and economic issues in making people give up gas cars for EVs . Yet this is technology we currently possess and by rights should be one of the initial steps to reducing CO2 emissions . The vast difficulty in implementing actual practical changes in response to the cries that we must do something NOW is really one point of this mental exercise .

I agree . I have been a member for a while now . I have not posted much but have read extensively in the physics area . New to this area .

There were folks asking why it was being turned into FB . I don’t FB , so I have no reference. It was strange to watch it happen . We all knew well in advance the exact time ( midnight ET on the chosen day ) , so everyone was on at the last hour trying to make the final post . Navigating around the site at 12:01 was eerily similar to walking though a huge deserted building all by yourself . It’s a shame , it was a great site .

It required a butt load of mods , even though they were volunteer . I think they had one or two paid mod supervisors . They had an excessive number of forums also , almost every silly variety you could find . Even had a subforum in the Jedi Knight faith ( not kidding at all) and some faith called Ekunkar or something somewhat similar that turned out to be an aromatherapy religion ( didn’t know there was one ) . Also a Satanist subforum . They got bought by a corporation who made the decision to shut down the forum side . No profit in it I guess .

Beliefnet was the forum with the Science and Religion area . It had a vibrant discussion area from all religions to politics to science . They shut down the forums 6-7 yrs ago and are strictly a read and blog site now .

My thread is about the future , but the very near future , not the distant future where we can invent fantasy solutions that are unworkable in present time . This limitation is based on the insistence that we must do something NOW , so we must limit the solutions to what we can do now, and not what we think we might be able to do 25 yrs in the future . I’m not sure where you see any opposition from me to solar panels . I do not object to anything as long as it is feasible in the present or very near future . Solar panels on every inch of every roof is certainly a viable alternative . The impact of course will be the cost of install , as well as integrating the solar power into the other power sources since solar is unlikely to create 100% of the need and is intermittent.

Honestly I don’t think I need to provide proof that electricity in the US comes from the grid . Where else would it come from? Perhaps we are defining the terms differently . I mean having your house connected to the electrical supply system of your area, which gets power from a generating plant . As opposed to local sources like solar panels . If you don’t have your own personal power source that saves you from needing an electric meter and an electric bill, you are on the grid .

*shrug* I have watched people refrain from doing that for decades . But not my forum , not my rules . Im thinking this has run its course and I’ll focus on other things

I think I enjoy having my post termed a thesis Yes, it was extremely broad , and involved how to remove all the fossil fuels possible from the system , including heating and cooking . My point in reply to you is simply that locally produced energy is not widely available right now . Power currently comes from the grid . Any switchovers from fossil to electric , whether car or appliances , must currently be connected to the grid , which isn’t going to be capable of any substantial immediate increases . I chose to limit the time frame to 5 yrs out to prevent fantasy scenarios of how things will be in 25 yrs in lieu of practical current time needs and capabilities. We have some hybrids . I took the simple route of assuming replacing 1 gas car with 1 EV car . I’m not sure hybrids would change that any . They will still have to have a minimum mileage charge , so even if they can switch to gas they will pull from the grid to maintain that minimal mileage capability.

No, Im not saying there can’t be disagreements over lying. I’m saying it isn’t necessary to accuse others of the possibility that they are lying if they don’t agree with the mass . No one here knows the inner thoughts of another poster or scientist . And no, that’s not all you have . I participated for decades in forums in which science nerds debated creationists , and also forums where Arab sympathizers debated Jewish sympathizers (no love or community found there ). In all cases debate was conducted ( HAD to be conducted or face moderation ) without insult, implications of dishonesty, snarkiness , or snideness . The science nerds managed it without need of moderation, the ME area needed frequent moderation , as did a few comments from creationists . To be fair, some of the creationist deletions were proselytizing instead of insult , but some insults were made . But the science nerds invariably conducted themselves above reproach . Which is why this place surprised me . But again, no big deal . This has taken on a life way larger than its importance . But it is not accurate to say sometimes these are the only tools left available the toolbox . I have observed differently firsthand for 2 decades .

My post didn’t give quantitative numbers other than the unspoken implication of 1EV car for 1 gas car , with each EV car being a new addition to the grid , so I’m not seeing how either the qualitative or quantitative points were flawed,although at this point it appears only the latter was disputed somehow. I stand by both points . The efficiency of the new EV car relative to the gas car is irrelevant ,as it is new load on the grid . Ultimately we can correctly argue that it is an overall energy saving to the total energy consumption from all sources, but my point was the immediate capabilities of the grid, all the way from the generating plant to the EV charger outlet in your home .

You said my numbers were wrong . Since the topic was numbers ( amount of addition to the electrical grid ) , saying my numbers are wrong is saying my argument is wrong . But if there is now no disagreement there, then OK Very true . But local generation of electricity by renewable sources does not exist in any appreciable quantities in the US today . My thread is based on the now , what can we do now, since the urgency to do it now is proclaimed over and over . This thread was about what we can do at max five years out from now , not a rosy picture of how things can be in 25 years from now . I’m not knocking the idea at all, simply pointing out the reality that if we start switching to EV cars tomorrow we WILL do so by powering them off the electric grid .