Handy andy

Do I conclude that the strange claim ref the flow of space was totally wrong? or just not definitely correct?

A Further point that will sustain religion is it is a multi million dollar tax free business, encouraged by governments, and religious people like the social aspects of meeting together and having a bit of a sing song.

Apologies for my method of questioning. I tend to think what an answer maybe to a question, before asking what the answer to the question actually is, or is considered to be. I had assumed Space flowing towards a mass or gravitons flowing towards a mass could be assumed to be same thing, both resulting in a gravitational gradient in space, or the apparent stretching of space, in line with GR. Clearly gravitons are bosons and space whilst full of bosons and fermions is neither, but the stretching of space does transmit the gravitational force. I know there are many theories, and I know they all don't agree on the mechanism of gravity. This is why gravity is interesting. It is also why space is interesting, space can be stretched and deformed into a gravitational field around a mass according to GR, it can also be stretched by EM waves or photons of light. If any one knows how the gravitational force is transmitted and where all matter in the universe comes from, I think everyone would be interested. A simple question relating to the flow of space is. How is the gravitational force transmitted?

Yes, good point. Has anyone ever tried re writing general relativity in terms of accelerated inertias. As I understand it, a complete mathematical understanding of gravity still eludes theoretical physicists and peasants alike. @ All Speculation: Does the cause of gravity have to be a boson or a fermion? The reason I ask this, is it possible it is neither, ie has no spin, but only flows along gradients. Further Speculation: Particles when destroyed become waves in space, (fermions become bosons) Photons can become part of a particle. Waves are fluctuations in space and are a part of space. What would happen to a gamma ray with 511eV of energy in a black hole, would it become an electron or positron? Could it be that bosons and fermions are made of space, and space is the fundamental building block of everything, that transmits all forces that everything is made from.

Famine is more to do with environment, inequality to do with greed and economics. Religion is used in the control of people by religious and political leaders, it is a tool that can be used to highlight differences between people, and dehumanise them in time of war. It is also a tool that can be used to bring people together with similar beliefs, which makes them more likely to survive. There are many forms of creativity and intelligence, not all uneducated people are stupid, and not all educated people are intelligent. Edit Another point that may sustain religion especially under Islam and to a lesser degree in other old testament religions, is that it is dangerous to convert from Islam, you can get your self executed if you are lucky you will just be rejected from the community.

When I looked at Minkowski coordinates in Euclidean dimensions I wondered if I should take up religion for a simpler life . But then breathed a sigh of relief when I realized Minkowski coordinates are just a mathematical construct. Also the link you posted above is an excellent description and negates the need for me to take up religion When I read the link I initially posted by strange, I assumed it was a strange referring to the gradients, indicating a flow of space. I followed up and found various references to Kerr https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.0206.pdf whereby the flow of space is repeatedly mentioned. I understand the thing with gravity it is gradients in gravitational potential that causes things to move and develop mass. The mechanism by which gravity is transmitted is not a mathematical equation, albeit describable by various equations. Gravity is one of the four forces in the standard model promoted by CERN https://home.cern/about/physics/standard-model this includes the graviton. The concept of the graviton being a force transmitter seems to have been dropped by some but is still promoted by CERN and is mentioned in string theory as a means of transmitting gravity. Using the concept of the graviton, do gravitons not move or flow? Can all of space not be assumed to be full of gravitons, which appear in an expanding space, and disappear in a contracting space, inside particles with inertia? Can particles be viewed as vortices sucking gravitons or space into them. Space dragging on a larger scale around planets. Are gravitons still assumed to exist by a majority of scientists or are they now another idea kicked quietly into the bin.

This is a very interesting point, and one which can be played with The tendency for believers and non believers is to avoid engagement, due to the emotional stance some take, this is wrong, discussion is the only way to change peoples views. Unless they become psychotic (NOTE never discuss pork or bacon sandwiches with a moslem ) Without talking to religious people and arguing against religion it will carry on for ever. The belief in god is a question of definition, "there is always a position for god in the gaps". I am not sure of the verse in the bible, and I am not going to look it up, but I think it states something along the lines of "don't you know god is in you and around you and in everything you see" This could be the concept of the god particle or space. Engaging with people on their definition of god, seems to get around the emotional response. Once past this most religious folk will start to engage, and their views can be questioned, and the religious texts can be shown to contradictory, bipolar and based on astrology etc. Outside of religious beliefs we have beliefs based on superstitions and ghost stories, which are at the base level of most religious beliefs, ref an afterlife, or the occult. These are reinforced by people claiming out of body experiences, on operating tables who are convinced something weird happened to them. The power of the human imagination is a difficult thing to get around.

The link was posted by strange, this one includes kerr, and is more specific regarding the flow of space https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.0206.pdf

For clarification using the Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates. Which can be interpreted as space flowing towards a mass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullstrand–Painlevé_coordinates Is Gravitational attraction simply the contraction of space around a mass? Could this also be worded as gravity is caused by the absorption of space by mass? Whilst Gravitational repulsion is the expansion of space between masses or galaxies? Worse still, Could space be regarded as being made up of gravitons, or little strings?

Richard Dawkins published a book called the selfish gene. Here is a wiki link about the book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene Humans in fact all animals are more likely to survive childhood if they believe without question what they are told, and learn from their parents and society around them. Ie don't put your hand in the fire or you will be burnt. The genetic ability of being able to believe what you are told, improves your chance of survival. Without education religion will carry on indefinitely, in the minds of those who believe. Once a thing is believed to be correct, it takes a open minded person to relearn what they believe to be correct. The teachings of many religions are to reject any body who disbelieves, and is therefore self perpetuating, because non believers are cast out of the religious social group. There are some very interesting points on this website I stumbled across. http://www.mysearch.org.uk/website1/html/1.Home.html Two examples that might be pertinent to the discussion are " As a broad generalization, most of us are a product of some form of cultural heritage or national identity, which can undoubtedly influence what we have come to believe is true. As such, there is often a very fine line between education and indoctrination, especially where our children are concerned. As a consequence, there are many perceptions of the truth and many interpretations of the true nature of the universe. The basic rationale of science is that facts can be established by empirical verifications. However, science is now often charged with predicating its verification on evermore abstract mathematics, which may not be generally understood by society at large. As such, science has become, to many, an act of faith comparable to many religions. "

i do not know if any one else got a copy of electron physics by J Thompson and E Callick. I keep going back to section 5.3, the book is very dated, but to paraphrase a quote by prof Townsend " current due to ionization by electron collision could become mathematically infinite, if it were assumed the positive ions were capable of ionization by collision also" Photo emissions are responsible for secondary ionization producing currents beyond what can be explained by the avalanche effect, this may be potentially self sustaining, if the charges are handled and separated accordingly, via modulating magnetic fields through the ionized gases.

Frame Dragging is way more interesting than the alleged Aspden effect. Just to be clear, are you saying that frame dragging will also occur on the atomic scale, with fundamental particles. Has anyone to your knowledge ever produced a paper on this.

Yes I understand there has been some real problems with the gyros used in the experiments to measure the frame dragging effect. The estimated Earth mass is M⊕ = 7024597220000000000♠(5.9722±0.0006)×1024 kg Taking a moderately sized motor of 59.722kg 1x10^24 times bigger You are correct I was speculating with a quick linear relationship to mass and speed, without thinking it through or considering square laws etc. Am I wrong in thinking frame dragging on the scale of a atom or particle that is spinning is plausible with current theory. I state this with a picture of an electron fog around an atom. Or considering an electron to be a dipole vortex in space. What frame dragging does demonstrate is that gyros are affected by the movement of space, as must other things

I politely withdraw from this debate, without further comment Andy

I have another thoughts ref the possibilities of an explanation ref the apparent reduced inertia. How about Frame dragging of space, on a small scale. If the planet earth can drag space and it is only rotating slowly, a motor rotating much faster would have a greater effect. Perhaps there is an equivalence M off earth x rotational speed of earth = Mass of rotor x rotational speed of rotor. Something Swansont posted on Machs Principle looks interesting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach%27s_principle also https://physics.aps.org/articles/v4/43 "inertia originates in a kind of interaction between bodies", this too could be interpreted as true in the context of the effect. of the inertia of the machine being affected, by some Coriolis effect in space dragging. Is it possible to extend the above statement to all matter, with space being drawn into the centre, causing a gravitational effect. In the case of the Aspden effect if it was something to do with a coriollis effect in space around the machine, that takes time to diminish after the machine stops it would state something about space. Space having inertia or something equivalent.

So you believe religious people get around Darwinian natural selection by belonging to a religious group. http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/teenage-girl-confirmed-dead-after-manchester-terror-attack-as-her-friend-is-treated-for-severe-burns/ar-BBBvxEe?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp Brush off is close enough It's probably the best guess at what I was indicating by my response to the deliberately offensive folk above.

The bottom line in any belief must be, not to harm anyone else. It does not take religion to come to that understanding. If religions were taxed, would anyone have a problem. So you believe religion is an ignorant reality. the last word ends in off see above

Religious atrocities have gone on for centuries. In a modern world do we have to put up with a blind belief that religion is to be accepted. If we maintain the status quo, we just get same shit on a different day, or ground hog day just repeating over and over again. The argument that not all religion is bad should not exclude religion from taxation, not everyone that drinks becomes an alcoholic or gets violent but alcohol is heavily taxed. Indoctrinating children into religion is how it gets embedded into peoples psyche, and should not be allowed

The swastika is the symbol of many peoples not just the Nazis. Do you have any consistent ideas on policing or curtailing religious extremism. As you seem to want to maintain religious freedom. Extremists are already underground, many are thought by their friends and family to be nice people until they kill people, taxing religion would reduce the ability to fund other religious causes. Do you believe that ancient beliefs should be allowed to influence the way a modern human race behaves. My understanding of Buddhism, is that it is more to do with spirituality an afterlife or rebirth and the occult, than the worship of a god figure. I have no gripe against Buddhists that I can think of at the moment. However self harm I don't approve off, all things should be done in moderation, including alcohol. As for Hard drugs, I understand they can destroy your mind and cause people to stare at blank walls for hours on end. Cuidado No, the thread is about religion.

What the hell is that meant to mean. If you haven't got something pertinent to write please don't.

I am not aware of football hooligans deliberately killing children who most likely don't support any opposing football team or religion. I notice your picture shows an interest in Buddhism, many religious extremists don't regard Buddhism as a religion, because many Buddhists have no god. If extremist islam is allowed to advance how do you think Buddhists living in Islamic countries would fare. Do you still believe the status quo is the way to go, or would you like to spread your Buddhist beliefs in these countries. Would it be better in areas where religion differences cause violence to allow the religious folk to meet. If there is a chance of a football riot then football matches are cancelled By perhaps I assume you agree. I do not find religious extremists enhance my life at all, and I am pretty sure the families of the dead in Manchester don't either. The point of the thread is religion, many points above have nothing to do with the thread. OK I guess you are an Anarchist Buddhist, who believes in Darwinian natural selection of the species. In which case blowing people up and allowing weak minded people to harm themselves and others around them is no problem.

Manchester does not lack context, these terrorist events are becoming less rare. This thread is about religion not accidents in the work place, or politicians trying to police the world and force regime changes. People can live happily without religion, religion is not needed by anyone, other than those that have been indoctrinated and allow it to ruin their lives. Religion is not meant to give people a reason for living, it is simply a tool used to control people or order some societies. Today it is tool that is being allowed to get out of control, and used by fanatics to justify murder. In its benign form many people enjoy a sense of community, these groups pay tax for everything else in life, why not pay tax for religious donations. In its malignant or evangelical form religion eats at society and different cultures like a cancer subjugating weak minded people. Pope Pious ?? stated the Jesus myth has served them well, people need to know its a myth, and stop ruining their lives or the lives of others through some misguided belief system. Considering the lack of evidence for the existence of Jesus and apparently Moses as well, I think removing the tax exempt status of religion should be a priority, backdating the taxation may alleviate the debt burden some countries carry, and benefit the whole of society. Is the status quo the way to go, to avoid offending religious people, whose religion is the seed for extremism? Many people find comfort in religion and taking hard drugs, it does not mean that taking either should be tolerated by society. Idiots driving cars have to pass exams which are meant to ensure that at least they know the rules of the road. They know they are breaking the law when they drive like idiots, and pay taxes for the petrol the consume etc.

Stone age ideas huh if the effect exists an experiment to verify Aspdens claims as I mentioned above, would be a good starting point, without which we are on very stony ground. Ref Barney and Fred, I think Fred would have to shout WILMAAAH to find out what to think, unless he could get experimental verification from THELMA in which case he might shout Yabadabado if he has a result proving the effect, is due to an effect of space or something like that. The effect could be explained by friction reducing on bearings (doubtful). It could be explained by residual magnetism giving stronger magnets inside the motor(plausible) and reduced currents. It could be explained by increased resistance in the windings due to a heating effect (hum). It could as Aspden claims be explained by a version of the aether which does not exist according to Mickelson Morley, who assumed various characteristics for the aether, and then tested for them. An experiment to confirm the claims would be a good starting point, without which the thread is speculation, and I am trying to avoid speculating (thinking too much).

I took the extreme stance of suggesting banning all religions, and asked the question of how it could be done. It seems some people would like to keep it, and think religion should stay. Religion is the route cause of many terrorist attacks. The Manchester atrocity being the latest, it is not only moslem extremists that have exploded bombs in Manchester, the catholic funded IRA have murdered a few people there as well approx. 30 years ago in a city centre shopping centre. I had hoped some one would have taken the stance of perhaps suggesting taxation as a means of reducing the revenue of religious organisations, and hence their influence. Perhaps after every atrocity they could have a taxation increase. Taxation could be carried out on all donations, like VAT. The revenue could be used to educate people and rehabilitate those indoctrinated or abused by religion and religious leaders. Assets could be seized for none compliance. Charitable status could be removed from religious schools due to teaching non factual things as fact, also child abuse. Taxation could be back dated and religious schools could be closed down, or made to teach the truth as best as it is known, not based on myth and legend. etc etc The thread is about banning or reducing the influence of religion with the aim of curtailing extremism, it is not about politics, or any other diversionary ideas thrown up above. Neither is it about spirituality or science, the post is about religion, not science or spirituality.

It seems there is a general consensus that people would like the world to carry on has it has done for the last few thousand years embracing religious belief. All extremists start out as moderates. Below is a link of a moslem consoling a jew after the Manchester bombing. http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/well-get-through-this-together-touching-unity-as-muslim-comforts-93-year-old-jewish-woman-at-manchester-terror-attack-vigil/ar-BBBuvJ9?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp I find it disgraceful that the politicians and media do not do anything to curtail unhealthy religious belief. Many politicians seem to support religion, or use it as a vote winner. There is nothing more certain in life than death and taxes, unless of course you have religion. Smoking and Alcohol are heavily taxed and has been found to reduce consumption. Is it not about time that religion was taxed as is every other pleasure activity. Would this help religion fade away. WTF -2 points for asking a simple question.