Handy andy

That is what I would expect also, maybe space is stretched and it takes time to spring back

Do I need to answer this Gravity or space affects the clock and causes time dilation. Gravity affects everything at every level even in clocks.

What else is there to dicuss on this thread, I am runnning out of ideas not covered by wikepedia.

The particles in a clock are affected by differing levels of gravity and will change their motion accordingly, they are also affected by speed through space, and again will change their orbit accordingly. An electron orbiting a atom at 0.5c travelling at 0.5c will have a peak speed through space of c and a minimum speed of 0, this is impossible, the electron must change its energy level or orbit to compensate. The speed of light is the limit at which information can be transmitted in any spacial reference frame and is the same every where, at the other side of the galaxy for instance. In an identical galaxy accelerating away from us at 3c at the other side of the universe a clock positioned in a gravitational field or moving in the same way as one at this side of the galaxy will tick at the same rate, people will age at the same rate. Time dilation is a function of the gravitational field or spacial reference frame the clock is moving in. Time does not go slower in any ones reference frame. In a high gravity field a clock will slow down and in a black hole possibly stop, if you are travelling into a black hole your time is still doomed to end, not with stationery time but more with a splat. If you could transmit the information out of the black hole it would be affected by red shift and appear to slow down, but in real terms of both an observer and the person about to go splat time goes on as per normal. I am just stating that a clock that ticks slow does not cause anyone to live longer.

You can not focus on the whole of Africa as one entity, it must be broken down into chunks. Different regions and countries have different problems. Starvation in drought areas, could be managed with food distribution, or irrigation from other areas. Giving people the tools to grow their own food, enables them to feed them selves. Giving people food is only a short term solution. By focusing on a small group in Africa, you will learn how you can help them. You will also learn why you will encounter resistance from some cultures, due to ancient beliefs. I mentioned religious belief as a problem, I should have included superstitions also. Witch doctors are often the doctors people refer too, even in the big cities. People may also defend what they perceive their position is in their society, and will want to maintain it(Africa has royal families who own countries, see Swaziland ). You need to understand peoples to change their practices, this goes from the family group in a village to the tops of society in big cities, including corrupt politicians. To argue economics is the way forward, would automatically put those at the bottom of society with no money at a disadvantage. Those that are in power holding all the resources may quite happily do as they have always done. On a small scale a different kind of economy may be a way forward, if people without money could trade with labour or skills for goods in some kind of barter economy. Or Perhaps a local currency or points system could be established. Families often help each other for free, or prestige in the community in some cultures. If the resources in the community were owned collectively, all could benefit from them, the Kibutz system in Israel may be useful to look at on a small scale. Yada Yada I completely agree the problem is massively complex, but would state in any complex project it should be broken down into manageable chunks, like a piece of software with subroutines including a historical knowledge database, education, support, progress, etc etc The reason many good ideas fail in Africa is because of corruption at all levels of society being the accepted norm. The people in charge are corrupt and lining their own pockets and those of family members. In ZA Money for education recently was allocated to corrupt education officials to employ teachers who only existed on paper, the money disappeared. The question is how to beat the corruption, or to get around it. Or just say TIA and walk away.

The atoms in a clock are a machine, they are not alive and self replicating. Why would organic matter age any slower because a clock ticks slow. Your body is not a machine wired to a clock, it is organic.

You can have time, but not time dilation it is instrument error:) Just what do you think is the cause of gravity? Would you agree it is caused by space transmitting a force. Ref memory Can you explain a wave effect without waves. Waves are result of something that has passed, they are like memory. The wake of a boat is in effect a memory of the boat going past. Waves in the double slit experiment are created by photons. What I am saying is that the accuracy of the clock is being affected by its movement through space and position in a gravitational field. My atoms in my body do not last longer because a clock runs slow on a mantel piece. What on earth makes you think a slow running clock will make you age slower. All fermions and bosons are affected by gravity wells, they all create their own gravitational fields as they move. What makes you think that the movements of fermions in an atomic clock wont also be affected, by being in a gravitational field or moving through it. Time dilation is instrumentation error caused by clocks moving through gravitational fields. " its the kings new clothes"

I have always thought this motor start up observation (maybe Aspden effect) was primarily due to the motors having residual magnetism, which takes time to decay when the motors are stopped. Or secondly due to the copper windings getting warm, and having an increased resistance, on the second start. I am pretty sure bearings don't get easier to turn the longer they run, most motors have dry bearings, and so this shouldn't affect the response. I remember a lot of years ago, as a student, the prof asked why the motor took less power on the second start up. He was given various answers, and just smiled and walked away, it stuck in my head. I think it is probably best to leave this discussion here.

Try it in a power lab, using a standard motor, you might surprise your self.

Simplify it down to one village or a family group , and discuss how to raise their standard of living. If it is a none religious extremist village devoid of missionaries, it might simplify things further, and help avoid trampling over outdated belief systems or cultures that may be holding them in poverty. simplify, and then build up the understanding to a larger group.

We seem to be drifting off thread, but there was no such thing as super waves reported by mariners until scientists discovered them. The radon gas idea being released from the sea bed was put forward as an explanation for the loss off shipping in the Bermuda triangle some years ago. Another theory possibly less believable, I heard from a Moslem waiter I spoke too in Indonesia was it was the gate to hell, or so he had been reliably informed The guy considered himself to be quite liberal and drank beer in his own house, things got a little strange when bacon was mentioned, luckily we had eaten by then. Back to the thread and weakened or loss of gps signal due to ionisation of the atmosphere, or radiation due to EM pulse from high altitude nuclear explosions. Radiation from a nuclear blast will work similar to the suns radiation. The air is easier to ionize at higher altitude, because it has less chance to recombine, according to collision theory, it is also very cold, which should make it harder to ionize. The air is normally easier to ionize when it is hot. Do air molecules at higher altitude have higher kinetic energy, than at lower altitude, making it easier to ionize them. Why are gps signals lost in ionized air. Is it partly because the signals are absorbed by the molecules or is it just a case that the signal can not be separated from the back ground noise. Oxygen absorbs a lot of EHF, at what frequencies does nitrogen absorb signals.

As you are aware I think the discussion ref substance of space has merit, but I would take the discussion a different way, using what is acceptable science(or at least on the edge of acceptable). I think all accept Gravity is caused by the stretching and distortion of space, (the ball on a mat analogy). All things are affected by gravity, even photons of light, are attracted to each other. Both Bosons and Fermions cause and are affected by gravitational fields. http://iopscience.io...630/18/2/023009 The double slit experiment has memory of what has passed, if photons are fired every 10 seconds the wave effect still appears, electrons used in the double slit experiment also generate a wave effect. There is something from the fringe areas of science called the Aspden Effect where when a motor, after running five minutes or more, is switched off and the machine is stopped, you can restart it in the same or opposite direction and find that it now has a memory in the sense that it will require less energy to restart it provided that the time lapse between starting and restarting is no more than a minute or so. Harold Aspden was into the concept of aether or space being a substance. Looking into an atom it is full of space with fermions and all manner of sub atomic particles moving around, these will be affected by gravity also. In space or at high altitude away from a gravitational field, their interactions with each other will only be affected by the space around them and inside of them. Not by the gravitational field of a planet for instance. All forces are vectors, normally gravity is considered to be scalar but a photon of light with a gravitational potential well directed towards it, is moving at light speed compressing space in front of it and stretching space behind it, in its wake. A fermion moving in space will do the same. When an atom consisting of fermions is moving into a gravitational well the movement of its fermions are affected by the stretching of space. Atomic clocks slow down, If an atom is moved at a tangent to a potential well at different levels, the speed of movement across the potential well affects the atoms making up atomic clocks and they slow down. This is measured as time dilation, it is not an actual slowing of time. Time Dilation or Time slowing down is not actual time slowing, it is just the measured time slowing. I mentioned above if an astronaut was sent of into space and aged physically 10 years, then came back to planet earth, he would find all his friends there only having physically aged 10 years also, regardless of whether his clock on his space ship says only a year has passed. I am still a disbeliever, and think Time Dilation is the Kings new cloths. I will try and come up with a stronger argument, over the next few days.

Yep its a huge topic to discuss, it is incredibly diverse continent incorporating many cultures. Perhaps simplifying the discussion to a small number of the countries in Africa might simplify the discussion, If people familiarise themselves with a map and locate where Africa is, then note how many countries and climates it has etc. Would exploring or defining acceptable ways forward for the peoples living in regions of Africa might be interesting. How do we break the chain of history religion culture etc holding some areas back. Shrugging shoulders and stating TIA is not helpful. (This Is Africa) Dessert areas could be irrigated, solar power could be harvested, electricity could be exported, education standards could be raised, people would need training to maintain the new technology etc To do this over the entire continent would be expensive, could a small area in the corner of a country be developed to show the rest of Africa how it is done.

Bermuda myths aren't modern myths and not really the gps thread, BUT my wife was single handing her yacht through the Bermuda Triangle 40 years or so ago, (before it was fashionable for ladies to single hand yachts across oceans) and observed a large amount of small bubbles coming out of the ocean surface. Imagine what would happen if gas trapped on the ocean floor, was dislodged by an earth quake, and came up all at once in large quantities, a ship might just fall down a hole in the ocean, an airplane might fall out of the sky. If it was radioactive gas, it might cause some upset of instruments etc.

Would electron orbiting nucleus be better, at defined energy levels which can transition to higher or lower energy levels. OK I have a problem, because the methods in which one would prove space is a substance that is affecting the movements of clocks, are the very methods used to claim time dilation, when they may be evidence for space as a substance. I have a couple of experiments in mind I would like to discuss, I will find some links and come back with in the week. That sounds religious, I do not do religion. But am working on my lack of belief. Who is John Lesser I Agree repeating the same thing does not make it more plausible. Just because you have something working, the explanation of how it actually works does not need to be correct or believed like a religion. I will come back to your comments next week. I need to pay attention to my family for a couple of days or so.

Peoples prejudices are often based on a very narrow sample of humanity or are taught by the social group people find them selves in. It is easy for people in positions of privilege to look down on those not as well placed in society, and come up with nonsense ref how much more smarter they must be, or how if those living in poverty could be in the same position as them if only they weren't so lazy etc. With regard to prejudice, why on earth would any one want everyone to behave the same way. If all cultures conformed to a norm, who is to set that norm. Which culture would anyone say is superior. Is any society massively superior to another? Would any one regard extreme religiosity to be good? Would anyone regard moderate religiosity to be bad? which political norm would people say is the best etc. To impose a system on people assumed to be inferior or corrupt, could be regarded as racist also. Is the problem people have with Africa stereotypes promoted by the media ref the level of violence and poverty. How many have been to Africa, it is not all bad. There are a lot of happy Africans.

Sorry senior moment, radon gas, is radioactive. My mind was on several things one being ref the Bermuda Triangle, and gas leaking from the sea bed, that might be radioactive and cause radio signals to be blocked, which then lead me to wonder if radio active gas or massive amounts of radiation after a nuclear bomb might block satellite signals. High altitude nuclear weapons are not really related to understanding GPS, but the EM pulse could ionize enough air to block satellite signals. Inter continental missiles if using GPS could get lost if they lose the satellite signal. Thanks for the correction.

To state a particular person or group of diverse individuals are smarter and faster than another group is not racist. What is racist is when a particular race claims supremacy over another group based on racial grounds. Politically this is dangerous to do this as was demonstrated by Nazi Germany.

Photons of light compress the space in front of them and stretch it behind them causing waves, the double slit experiment works with both electrons and photons, the effect in space is therefore the same. The track of photons in a gravitational field is bent by gravity (the stretching of space) An electron orbiting an atom in a radioactive clock will be affected by its movement in a gravitational field, as will any photons emitted. Can time displacement not more correctly be explained by instrumentation error? If not why not? Is time dilation and time travel not like the kings new clothes. I Agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock I am looking at it this way the instrument does not take into account it is affecting and being affected by the influence of gravity, it is not going slower through time, it is merely being affected by the stretching and contraction of space by it, which is slowing down its clock rate, giving the appearance of time dilation. Atoms are full of space, gravity waves can be created by photons moving through space, as they can by electrons moving through space, Space appears to have a memory of what has passed, see the double slit experiment it is now possible, to get the same result firing a single photon at a time 10 seconds apart, the double slit experiment also works with electrons and larger particles. My wife has told me a 1000 times not to exaggerate. Time dilation is not necessary to support a theory, it either happens or it doesn't. I have no problem with what relativity predicts, my problem is the interpretation of time dilation. Paraphrasing "as stated by experts on the forum space is nothing but a void which forces travel through".​ As I have mentioned on other threads I view space as being a substance, which all forces are transmitted through. From my viewpoint this is mostly wordology, both viewpoints are stating the same thing almost. Relativity predicts, that the time difference will be related to the difference in gravitational potential, from my viewpoint this potential is produced by one of two mechanisms, one being the actual contraction of space (a substance ) around masses or galaxies, the other being by a disturbance of space around molecules atoms photons of light etc This disturbance acting like a vibration in sand which heavier objects will sink into. With both these ideas a graviton is not required, and space is a medium, all be it very hard to detect other than how it affects other atoms through gravity waves or the stretching and relaxing of space. As I stated above I have no problem with relativity, it is the interpretation of time dilation I have an issue with. I just do not believe time slows down or speeds up, I think it is a misunderstanding of how forces are transmitted by space. I need to have a think ref your examples. But need more info such as how long is the year and what is the spin rate of your earth sized planet and your imagined planets, what is their radius from the sun. Has the time dilation on Uranus been measured? None of this rules out instrument error caused by gravity potential differences effecting the mechanism of the clock. Thank you all for your responses, but as of this moment I still do not believe in Time dilation, other than the clocks slow down and speed up due to the fact they are moving through space, and how space is stretched around the clocks. If you fly off in a space ship and return to the planet after aging for 10 years, everyone on the planet will have aged exactly the same amount as you when you return. Time dilation is not time travel, it is a misunderstanding of how the instrument is affected by space.

What is the complete mechanism behind the ionisation of atoms in both the ionosphere and troposphere, which leads to loss or reduction of signal strength. Gamma Rays UV rays etc knock electrons off atoms, the electrons in the atoms only transition when they have enough energy to go to the next energy level. The atoms also absorb energy in the form of kinetic energy. When GPS signals are transmitted through the troposphere and ionisation layers, signals are absorbed more easily than through air at higher atmospheric pressure at lower altitudes, is this because some of the kinetic energy of the atoms adds with the energy of the gps signal giving the atoms enough energy to transition to the next energy level. Why does none ionized air at normal atmospheric pressure not absorb GPS signals as much as ionized air at lower atmospheric pressure. Is there differentmixes of gases at higher altitude.. Which gases in the atmosphere ionize more easily. Would concentrations of radon gas block GPS signals due to its radio active nature. I thought some one around here new about GPS, was DGPS around 20 years ago, I cant remember.

The testosterone line was intended partially for amusement, partially to get the thread away from racism and elitism, and partially because there might be some truth in it. According to one of the other science threads on this forum, testosterone does not help decision making. Would you say that Mike Tysons aggressive tendencies have nothing to do with Testosterone:) Would you like to argue with him. Ref the racially motivated arguments, it gives people an opportunity to behave like animals in a pack and attack claimed inferior peoples or cultures, if cleverly controlled by leaders:) People can then acquire a "fist full of dollars" and sometimes "a few dollars more" from people they perceive to be "the good the bad and the ugly" who they then "hang em high" and then claim to be heros and live "where eagles dare" but in the end they are all "dirty harry's" You mentioned hitler, was it not herman gering between the wars who stated "if you are not one of us you are against us" Is this the same trick being used by politicians today to justify military action in the world, a handful of terror attacks or perceived injustices, warrants attacking and destabilising whole countries. Politicians of course do not want anything todo with seizing the assets of the countries they destabilize and are completely humanitarian NOT! No one invades poor countries without resources to stop atrocities. Africa has huge problems and huge potential, it may just need a little more time to get up to speed, with the rest of the world, with fair trading etc. Also why should every country in the world want to have the same culture or things as we have in Europe. How would America look if after the civil war, the Indians were not mainly wiped out or driven onto reservations. Would Africa have been like America if the colonial powers in Africa had done the same. The world needs to learn from its mistakes and move on, diversity is the spice of life.

I do not believe in Time Travel. Can some one help. Photons of light compress the space in front of them and stretch it behind them causing waves, the double slit experiment works with both electrons and photons, the effect in space is therefore the same. The track of photons in a gravitational field is bent by gravity (the stretching of space) An electron orbiting an atom in a radioactive clock will be affected by its movement in a gravitational field, as will any photons emitted. Can time displacement not more correctly be explained by instrumentation error? If not why not? Is time dilation and time travel not like the kings new clothes. Just because every one else believes in a thing does not constitute an argument. I posted this thread here because it might be the correct place for it, but like I said I am not a believer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound%E2%80%93Rebka_experiment The pound rebka experiment, confirms general relativity at different levels in a gravitational well and it confirms a red shift going into the gravity well and therefore a blue shift coming back out. Red in Blue out not GIGO. The time dilation on the return journey of the experiment I mentioned above will be smaller. I was posting my reply as you posted Edit: Red in Blue out Got it thanks all. How does the earths atmospheric changes affect the GPS accuracy with reference to propagation delays in particular through the ionosphere, and through humid and dry environments. I found this on wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System Does altitude or latitude affect GPS accuracy.

This is the same the world over with multi nationals. Keeping an eye on the past, how can Africa move forward, gain control or at least benefit from their resources. Could African political leaders enforce new contracts on multi nationals exploiting the resources of Africa. Could the governments of the world enforce legislation to force multi nationals to invest some of their profits back into the areas they are exploiting. Do multinationals have too much power today. Could people power globally force a change. Can Africa help it self out of the state it is in, without international aid. Is the international aid being used in the best way possible? In Africa the phrase TIA (This Is Africa) is sometimes used to explain the state of Africa, should people just stop meddling and let them get on with being African.

Exactly, what is not noted on the first post, is just how big and how diverse Africa is. The whole continent has massive potential and resources, as well as many problems. Many of the problems are a result of their history. However Colonialism may have actually brought them forward, without which they may still be hunter gatherers and warriors. The borders were imposed, and agreed by colonial powers, however colonialism has finished now. People who were born in those countries like everywhere else in the world have a right to live there. On the colonial lines can anything be learned from the American experience, how would the history of America had gone if the colonial powers had integrated with the indigenous people rather than pushing the indigenous people onto reservations or shooting them. Would a US of Africa be beneficial. America has oil in Texas, The middle east has the biggest reserves, but Africa has untapped oil and gas reserves as well. America has huge areas of land, Africa has more. America has tropical and desert environments, Africa has more. America has untapped resources(geo thermal yellow stone park), Africa has vast un tapped resources(no super volcanoes). How could the people of Africa benefit from what they have, without it being stolen by multi nationals and corrupt politicians or the ruling elite. How can politicians be encouraged to work for their people rather than line their pockets with greed. I am still for neutering all the worlds political leaders just to be on the safe side, to make them think with their heads