Handy andy

I tried Googling allsorts last night. I found this vertical michelson morley experiment, that may be of interest Then I found this one which doesn't quite agree with the first. Perhaps they are detecting gravity perhaps they aren't. The second test hardly sees anything, the first sees clear evidence. Thank you for the links ref contracting space, they are very interesting. I am not be a million miles off. Ref galaxies accelerating away from each other would you accept they are in "freefall" away from each other. Thankyou also for the pound rebka reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound%E2%80%93Rebka_experiment

If the experiment was turned on its side it will most likely detect the effect of gravity. Would you disagree with this statement. I know I am on dodgy ground using the term aether, as it means many things to many people and there are many definitions. I think all sentient beings reading this thread should be aware by now I am equating aether to space and what space is, what properties space has etc, nothing else. On the availability point I was wondering why there was a reset 2 years ago, I think to correct some errors in timing. What was the error caused by. Evidence, I am just looking at what I see and fitting an story to it If it doesn't conflict with einsteins general relativity and could explain special relativity, its interesting to pursue. You will recall I started in the religious thread, which I thought was the correct place for the thread(since I did not think anyone would believe on a science forum), but you upgraded me to the speculations department, which might have some truth in it. OK a googling I go. I have lots of links to keep me going for the rest of the evening. Thanks for all your input.

You got me again, thanks for the clarification. Do you happen to have a good link or pdf for how atomic clocks and gps work, which system gives the most reliable coverage.

Er yes my grammar is getting worse the older I get. Yes I want to initiate an ionization process which will be easier in a vacuum. Do you happen to know which gases would be best for this purpose. Thank you for the link I will check it out.

No Pushing shoving pulling acceleration gravitation, they just move away quicker and quicker. Is it not wordology that you are using. I don't need encouraging but thanks for the links. Idiotic huh, I did not say space time does not exist. If the M-M experiment was to try and detect the movement of space causing gravity. The experiment needed rotating into the vertical and doing again. Ref the aether many people ascribe different properties to it, I just state its space nothing more, and it is the understanding of space, which is the interesting stuff. I am still looking into Special relativity and the links posted on the previous page. But if I get an angle to discuss instrumentation error I might pick up the subject again for amusement

I found this link helpful when understanding the movement of things in inertial reference frames restricted by c and an expanding universe with galaxies moving away from each other. I think it also helps define space (the aether if you like). Now for the controversial bit Galaxies can move away from each other at a rate in excess of 3c and are still accelerating, this is due to the expansion of space (the aether) between galaxies pushing them apart and is like an antigravity causing them to accelerate away from each other. When space contracts at it does around a black hole it causes gravity, as it does around any mass, space must contract, causing the stretching effect described in general relativity. Space(the aether) is flowing into all masses, giving the appearance of stretching space, and contracting out of existence. It flows into the planet from all directions like a gas pulling masses together in the vacuum. Space is like a liquid that transfers all forces, and all things evolved from, space(the aether) is thought not to exist due to the M-M experiment. With space the aether flowing directly onto the surface of the planet the M-M experiment would detect nothing. With this definition of space (the aether) Space exists. I wont mention instrumentation errors Ok no anecdotes, could I use a stopwatch and corrections tables instead of general relativity. How often is GPS unavailable or reset? How often does it need resetting and why would it need resetting? Are there places where GPS is not available? How many types of GPS are their and how many satellites does each system have? Which system is deemed the most reliable? LineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf

Using Astro navigation on a good day I get within a Nautical Mile, which equates to 1 second of error. On a bad day I prefer to use a GPS. The specification of 10m on land is excellent at sea. But in an open ocean I don't care where I am to within a 100NM, it is only when approaching land I start to focus. If you know what the error is could you not write some correction software to make it work, at least at sea outside shipping lanes. I have have had 3 occasions at sea when the GPS satellite signals have been lost, twice in the Moray Firth, north of Aberdeen, and once in the Pacific, the satellites vanished for about an hour, do you happen to know if this normal. I checked with other boats around they had lost the signal as well, it was not instrumentation failure.

Its interesting, but not really what I am looking for. My problem is more of a transmission line problem, using very fast rising edges, with reflected pulses causing standing voltages on the cable. I was originally thinking about the Tesla Bifilar pancake coil circuit, and pulsing it very high frequency. I know I can ionize the air using high voltage dc, but think it must be more efficient with a very fast pulse train, which will have some very short wavelength components making up the pulses. This may work more like radiation than bog standard dc. (did you notice the way I avoided writing high frequency DC pulses) The magnetohydrodynamic generator method demonstrates I am thinking in the right direction and can separate the ions using magnetic fields. The Townsend discharge shows I can get an avalanche effect via passing a small current. What I want to do is create an avalanche production of ions around my voltage pulses in the surrounding air, without passing a current. Pulsing a seeded vacuum will make the vacuum ionize easier and stay ionized longer, hopefully long enough to collect the positive and negative charges. Hopefully you can see what I am aiming at doing. Thank you very much for the response, it is appreciated.

I know I keep saying that too. If you hadn't commented I wouldn't be answering your remark Would someone like to explain how an atomic clock works. To keep the thread interesting. and none personal. When GPS satellites are orbiting the planet they are all orbiting in the same direction. Was the aeroplane experiment or something similar repeated over the poles.

Hi do you happen to have a pdf or a web link with an example of steps 1, 2 and 3 above. Ref the maths huh link, very neat, it takes me back to my youth, and was surprisingly simple to follow. It will help me to have an example to get up to speed again.

I know Ancient navigators often managed to use dead reckoning without astro to navigate in fog for days on end, with only an acceptable loss of life and ships in its day. Astro Navigation is still practised by some navigators and can be surprisingly accurate to within 0.5Nm, but would not be any good for satnavs in cars. GPS used for cars and ships today are accurate to within a few metres, so you can tell which street you are driving down. The most useful thing about a GPS onboard a boat when you do Astro navigation is the GPS clock, it is bang on, and every second counts ie 1 second = 1Nm in distance. When you say completely unusable, do you mean it would have an increasing error every day, that would render the position fix more and more inaccurate, but for short durations might give ships an idea of where they are in the middle of an ocean to within a few miles. Clearly as a guidance network for cruise missiles it would hopefully not stop working or get jammed, as this might result in collateral damage, as it is put today. Collateral damage being injuring or murdering of innocent by standers human beings, animals, and other insignificant things on the planet that no one seems to care about. You could construct an argument similar to religion whereby GPS is a good thing and helps people except when controlled by fanatics. Would the world be a safer place without GPS. Similarly you could construct an argument similar to religion whereby guns are a good thing and help people except when used by fanatics, would the world be a safer place without guns. Would the inventors of the atomic bomb regret their invention today. etc etc I am rambling But since this thread was about space and ultimately about space expanding and contracting and being the source of gravity, and all known forces and all matter etc with a bit of strings woven in as well, I will shut up.

Are you sure you want to breathe air at -40C, it will give your nasal passages frost bite.

Sorry Ed I didn't think your question was directed at me. My post 25 outlines what I am thinking about, on your post you are talking about potentials and connecting terminals to ground. The ground connection is a definite no no, when trying to collect the charges onto separate conductors, they will be neutralised by the earth connection. The positive charges will attract electrons out of the conductor leaving it with a positive charge, that can be used. If it is grounded the +ve charge would be wasted. The conductors collecting the charges need to be floating electrically. To measure the voltages (accumulated charge) on the conductors none grounded test equipment should be used, and rubber boots, and a lot of caution, the voltage could float to a dangerous voltage. A cloud of ions should accumulate due to successive pulses preferably impulses, delivered at very high voltage, in the vicinity of the voltage pulse source. The voltage pulse will tend to drive the electrons away from it, but the positive charges should stay closer. The general idea is magnetic fields would be the best to separate the charges. The reason I am particularly looking at impulse rather than DC, is that a very short wavelength ie very fast rising edge could emulate an x-ray or even gamma rays( in my dreams). The rising edge of the pulse will carry more energy than the DC part of a pulse. A square wave if represented using fourier transforms can be constructed from a range of frequencies. The concept I had using hot gases has already been done, so that idea is closed. Apologies for not answering but the thread is not intended to be about an arguable definition of a term. It is about ionisation (possibly as a result of a avalanche), separation of oppositely charged ions and collection of ions.

Thank you for that. Wikipedia seems to be getting better and better.

Yes I am aware of Alfvens work, and have read a lot of his stuff, he was a very interesting guy, and completely disagreed with main stream science on big bang theory, and thought that mainstream science was based on a lot of very shaky theories. Which is what started me thinking about space. He was also heavily involved with Plasma research and controlling the plasma at Cern if I recall correctly. I suspect some of his none orthodox ideas would have been relegated to the speculations/trash can part of the forum. Yes I am interested in Magneto hydrodynamics but had only looked at the dynamo side until now, it seems there is a generator as well already doing what I was thinking about, ref power stations and hot gases. I note on your earlier post you did state generator I only looked at the dynamo, thank you for pointing it out again. Charging the air using a tesla coil, and trying the magneto hydrodynamic generator method or something very similar is very interesting. Thank you again for your reply. I am still interested in creating very short impulse waves to ionize the air locally around a coil. In particular the possibly of creating a local avalanche effect around the source of the impulse waves, without passing a current between electrodes to create an arc, as in the "Townsend discharge" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townsend_discharge . The Townsend discharge shows I can get an avalanche effect via passing a small current. I want to use a pulsed high voltage and then separate the charges magnetically before they recombine, and direct the positive and negative charges onto conductive plates, where the charges can be utilized. This could be done in a vacuum enclosure, so as not to upset peoples pace makers. But also the gas could be seeded to make it ionize easier as mentioned above. What gas would be best to use, and at what level does nitrogen ionize, compared to oxygen and hydrogen.???? Thanks for this reply, I don't think this is what I am looking for, however I wondered if the Wikepdia article on the penning trap is correct on one thing. It mentions CERN used this to contain antiprotons, I thought these were just theoretical, should that have read positrons, or have CERN managed to create an antiproton.

I know I understand the GPS system would be a little inaccurate with out special relativity, being taken into account. I think this thread has come to a natural end. I have learned some new things, and am particularly happy with the expanding universe, I was completely unaware of the speed it was going, that was new to me. I also like the analogy of space near planets I put forward etc, and it is inline with Einsteins theories as well.

Thanks for the reply, and to elaborate, I initially started the thread under religion and blasphemy, because I did not see the speculations / trash can forum, which the thread was correctly moved to by the "evil liar". Strange you should write I don't understand how science works, I used to be an academic for a short while, before moving into industry. But having said that I wasn't allowed to do a Phd on lightning as I basically told the prof in charge of funding he was a moron. I speculated that positrons were manufactured in lightning clouds, and explained what I thought was going on and how lightning works, which he disagreed with. I was write and he was wrong. I also dealt with a lot of academics in industry who wanted me to tell them how I did what I did, and they wanted to tell me how to do my job. I had learned to be polite by this stage in my career. Thank you for all the very useful links, which are your favourite experiments on special relativity. The thread albeit in the trash can has some very good information included.

I do not believe everything I argue or talk about, I did however put forward a plausible idea I think is worth considering regarding misunderstanding how an atomic clock works, when moving through a medium with sufficient speed to affect its movement. The separating ion idea is more interesting, I am going to exclusively post there now, unless I see something interesting Have you carried out experiments to validate the claims of special relativity:) . How many variations of experiments validating special relativity are there? Which do you like the most? Are they all valid? The one and only one I am aware of is flying fast planes around the planet in opposite directions under the influence of gravity (movement in space of space, which might affect the movement or orbits of electrons around atoms moving in space)

Correct, I want to separate the charges, in flames, plasma, radiant displays of electricity (st elmos fire) etc, before the ions recombine with their respective opposite charges. I do not wish to pass a current, so was considering guiding the opposite charges with a pulsating magnetic field onto aluminium plates covering the north and south poles of an electromagnet seems like a plausible idea. Is it possible to work out how many ions are available for collection, in a hot gas for instance as found in a blast furnace or power station. Teslas lab was often highly ionized, the charges were attracted to insulated metal, door handles in wooden doors etc. He ionized the air using various coils, these coils did not pass a current to ground, unless they arced. Lightning produces huge charges both positive and negative which are separated by updraft the negative charges are in the base of the cloud and the positive charges in the top. When lightning arcs to ground a ionized leader first moves upwards to the cloud which provides a low resistance path to ground. When the negative charges arc to ground they knock more electrons of the air molecules on route to ground causing an avalanche effect. Interestingly positrons are produced in large quantities in lightning clouds, and have been detected by NASA, being blasted out into space. These positrons are most likely due to electrons bashing into the air molecules with sufficient energy to cause the nucleus to break down, like a form of radiation. Positrons I understand are one of the most expensive things to manufacture on earth, they are most likely being produced in plasma. Lightning balls have been observed to pass through walls are possibly a mix of positrons and electrons. I don't see any reason why a positron could not loosely orbit a molecule with a -ve charge or an electron. The most destructive and rarer type of lightning is positive discharges to ground which come from the tops of lightning clouds. These are often termed bolts from the blue, as they can travel for miles horizontally before coming to ground. They also move in a jerky fashion horizontally, pool then move on. The Tunguska event might have been a monster lightning ball, it reportedly moved slowly and exploded about 5 miles in the air, leaving no trace of its composition. For a week before the Tunguska event huge amounts of natural gas had escaped into the atmosphere, and much of Europe was illuminated by very high altitude thunderstorms.

Their are many historical possibilities for Hesus. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ . The whole issue of actual and imagined existence could be worked out on another plane, which could expand on to another reality like ground hog day a millennia from now. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com Some think and agree Some agree and don't think Some think and don't agree Some couldn't give a shit what happened 2000 years ago. etc

That's what you may get when everyone uses the same instruments, with the same inbuilt error and misunderstanding of gravity, but then science isn't a religion and we don't have to believe just because everyone else does. I do not disagree with the results of either general relativity or special relativity, I just question the understanding of space and gravity. Which could result in an instrumentation error. Yes you are probably repeating earlier use. But thanks for joining in. I would like to focus more on ionization so wont be posting any further on this thread. I Agree, The evidence derived via the methods used supports the theory. and Instruments are not perfect and do not give consistent results under all conditions.

The thread as about ionisation, not about grammar or the frequency of cars travelling down a street. My interest in ionisation comes from Tesla, Radiant Electricity and lightning. A lot of nonsense is talked about radiant electricity, and Tesla. Radiant means to glow, this happens when ionized gases recombine with electrons, and photons are given off. I am interested in the creation, separation and collection of these ionized particles. Ions can be created by gamma rays in the ionosphere, plasma discharges, flames, heat, EM impulses, mechanically etc. The ions will recombine quickly in a dense gas, but not in reduced pressure atmosphere (Thunderstorms) the ionosphere. Thunderstorms are also of interest, and can produce positrons in lightning plasma discharges. Lightning has both positive and negative discharge to ground. Plasma is a very violent way of ionizing air between two contacts. An EM pulse (nuclear explosion) ionizes air in all directions, (and destroys electronics). A blast furnace produces lots of heat and the particles in the flames will become ionized, which when the ions recombine glow. With a Tesla coil the air around the coil breaks down due to EM field strength, and produces ions, which when the ions recombine glow. Multiple other processes cause ionisation. A moving magnetic field will separate the ions An Electric field will also separate ions. Other methods can be used also. Once the ions are separated, onto surfaces with either negatively or positively charged, they may be able to produce a useful current that can be used, to improve the efficiency of a system. To improve the efficiency of a coal fired power station or blast furnace by utilising the ions produced, could be of great financial advantage. Would any one like to start by focusing on different methods of ion separation or on the viability of the idea.?

The topic has not changed randomly, it has followed a line of thought based around the concept of space (which I annoyingly called the aether, and others call fred) Actually discovered would infer incontrovertible hard evidence, agreed via more than one observatory, without possible counter arguments, otherwise it is hardly better than speculation we have been having on this discussion forum, from which I have learned, I suspect some others will have also. Special Relativity I am retired and don't want funding to go to the poles, also since the ice caps have largely vanished the only interest for me going there would be to sail the north west passage, and since there is little wind near the poles this would be a motor, and boring, cold damp and miserable sailing. I am not aware of the many tests done on special relativity, but always have thought it to be an instrument error caused by the movement through space (the aether) as I tried to explain by analogy above. Thanks for all ideas people have given. This thread has been thought provoking for at least one (me). I was hoping for more interaction on the ionisation thread I started, that appears to have crashed and burned, apart from a couple of posts. I have things to do for a few days and might not have internet, so I will not be able to answer posts for a few days, please carry on without me or lock the thread. Kind Regards Andy

We were discussing space or the aether, blue shift, red shift black holes are all on topic. Space is a pretty big subject is it not. I understand I was not the only one caught out by the speed of the expansion of the universe, so I guess more than just me have been learning here I am sad you think I have learnt nothing on the thread, that is your opinion, and I will not try to change it. Actual Black holes are only theoretical, and are a result of general relativity. A number of claimed black hole discoveries have bean made, but no actual black holes have been definitely found. One is inferred to be hidden some where in the milky way, but is hidden from view, others are inferred but nothing is proven. The actual definition of black holes could be reduced from a singularity to a very dense or high gravity body, which could theoretically swallow all space and matter and disappear from view in science books. The concept of a contracting universe died years ago, when it was found to expanding faster than predicted. The concept of space you and others have discussed here has evolved and improved along the way. I found it interesting even if you didn't. A few thousand other voyeurs have viewed it, so perhaps it amused them as well. Is Special Relativity covered on any of the other threads Does anyone have any sentient thoughts on time and space or how many dimensions we have in the universe or space. The simple little test with a couple of clocks flying opposite ways around the world, appeared to slow time, or for the planes to take longer to get back to the same point in space, one marginally more than the other due to the earths spin. Was the test ever done over the poles, did the two mobile clocks then have the same time. Atomic Clocks moving in space, are affected by the movement through space. If space carries all forces including those at the atomic level in a clock and the clocks were moving with reference to it, at a different rate to the clock on the ground, would they not be affected. Thought analogy (gravity equivalent to a gas) a stationery pendulum on the earth with a gravity flowing over it to the centre of the earth. Another pendulum being transported around the earth with enough speed so that the gas (gravity) flowing to the centre of the earth affects the movement of the pendulum will affect the time passed. Is there already a thread somewhere on special relativity, or a pdf someone could post on this. Kind Rgds Andy

Its an energy calculation. A helicopter blade sweeps an area given by 3.14r2​ the speed of the air through the blade is m/s. The overall power is therefore proportional to cube of the wind speed going through the blades​ . They will have losses Power = wT where T = Torque, and w the speed of the helicopter blade. Power = J/s you are trying to overcome the gravitational energy on the mass, so to hold it in position ..... is this a homework question. What mass of air do you need to displace to hold 1 kg mass in the air. What is the density of air, how much do you need to move to act against gravity.