Merle Noir

Care to back that up with something other then your word that it is so. Everything I have ever read indicates that while certainly there is no predictable outcome from such relationships, and harm is a risk. However harm when present... and outside clinical and criminal research shows that harm is not all that common (typically about 75% in collage studies report no harm), is caused by either an element of coercion ,force or non-voluntary participation. Those cases that do not involve coercion and force but where harm has been done, the harm is largely due to feelings of guilt due to sexuall taboos or the reactions of adults, the courts and police that learn of the relationship. Thomas D. Oellerich, Department of Social Work, Ohio University: "The notion that child sexual abuse is a "destroyer" of mental health has been based largely on studies involving clinical samples. But even these, if objectively considered, indicated that child sexual abuse is neither necessarily nor usually psychologically harmful. That is, for the vast majority child sexual abuse is not a "destroyer" of mental health at any age...the widespread belief that child sexual abuse necessarily and usually causes psychological damage is a myth." Coral Rhedd I'm wondering since it sounds to me that you are basing your opinion on your experience as a CASA how many victims you see of pedophiles do you see that did not involve anything inappropriate aside from the person being a pedophile? Just so I can get a feel for how accurately your work lets you see the non-offenders, or if your basing your POV on those that offend and extrapolating that information out to fit those outside your POV. As well how prevelent do you think pedophilia is within society. Put another way what percentage of people are pedophiles? Hehe, nope not since I accepted my self instead of letting people like you beat me down. I'm blessed with many many friends.

Well you sound like your getting close to understanding. Well you're certainly right I could be lying and so could anyone else. Trust is something that has to be built and certainly no one here other then Denver01 knows me well enough to say what degree I maybe lying or not. However acceptance of pedophiles as a group does not mean blind trust of individuals. We decide, every time we meet someone or every time events give the opportunity for a relationship to move to a new level, how much we trust someone, the same would be true for pedophiles.

Certainly I'm finding I am learning from a lot of these questions so I really don't mind. Hmmmm hard to explain it does tend to be my default thought so unless occupied by other thoughts I'm thinking about boys all the time. But work tends to have me busy enough that I don't think a lot about boys and so does a lot of other activities. As well it varies from day to day some days I'm so busy I may only think about boys a couple hours out of the day other days when I may just take it easy around the house they are on my mind almost the whole day. Generally I would guess maybe 7 or 8 hours a day though but keep in mind that almost all of those 7 or 8 hours I'm doing other things like work, sports or other hobbies.

Thats a very difficult question to answer. I can say that around age 12 I was aware of my attraction. Prior to this it gets very difficult to answer. I do know that as far back as I can remember I have associated and gotten a long very well with younger kids. However in these incidents prior to age 12 I have no recollection of any kind of attraction. It may be that the attraction was there and I just did not realize it or had no reason to see it as anything other then normal, or that there was no attraction and these are just experiences that in hind sight take on more meaning then they would had I not been a pedophile. My guess is a bit of both. My motivation is that seeing the kind of rationalization that I did' date=' and where it almost lead me, along with some of the same rationalization others do, or have done, I can't help but think that what pedophiles need is support in dealing with an attraction that if acted on is illegal, and can lead to someone else being harmed. I think do to the difficult nature of the subject most people are uninformed or know of myths that are not true and as a result fear what is essential an unknown. This fear I believe leads to more silence and less information and a lack of support that is crucially need. The only way for this cycle which I believe can and does lead to abuse of children is for the silence to be broken. So when ever I get the opportunity to speak with people on the topic I do so... which has lead to everything from disagreements to being banned to death threats along with people that are interested in learning more. I figure this is bigger then me and a worthy cause, if I'm right or if I'm wrong, well I believe the majority will be smart enough to see where I am wrong and where society is wrong and eventually come to the best answer. NO I would not try to suggest all pedophiles are good or should be considered as harmless. However from everything I've seen as well as the studies I've read everything seems to indicate that the largest danger is those that may not recognize their attraction or are in denial of it, due to conflict between what their sub-conscious and conscious mind. However even in helping people come to terms with who they are and providing support for them as with any large broad segment of society you will have people that follow along and get along with everyone and they you'll have those that for what ever reason end up hurting those that they come across. There is no real way to judge who is a good or bad pedophile. Personal instinct may be helpful but it can be easily fooled as well. However I'd say does it really make a difference. Can you judge who is a good or bad pedophile today when you don't even know who may or may not be a pedophile? I should think it twice as hard on parents when they have no clue if the person coming into contact with their child is or is not a pedophile in addition to might he be a good or bad pedophile.

Well then ethically I would not have a problem as I am not hiding anything from anyone. Since I would be in a bit more position to tell my son who his friends should and should not be I would be a bit more inclined to tell my son that he maybe should not get so close to someone I have concerns with... just as I would do with anyone else that was wanting to be his friend that I had concern about. Well so long as a child has no way of seeking out independent support for the relationship (s)he is in I completely agree. Any relationship that requires an element of secrecy has a problem to begin with. Well I'm glad to know you feel you've learned more about the subject, the more you know about it the more likely your position will be correct... even if I or others may disagree with it. Yes no doubt. But just because a society views something as immoral and another does not does not mean one is wrong and the other right. Nor does it mean that one society needs to change it's definition of morality.

From the way I read what you wrote I'd have to say no... A sexual relationship I think would be very wonderful and fulfilling. However in considering it more broadly then they way I read it I could see possibly that without some kind of feed back from the boy it kills the mood. Sort of like if a man goes to have sex with a women and she is not in the mood but say OK and then just lays there waiting for it to be over with it kills the mood for the guy. Or at least thats the way it is in the movies. But I really don't know that it is the case but seems pretty logical to me. Lots of variables there. For example since he is now 16 I'd probably say thats between him and the Pedophile. However If they expressed interest in him at a younger age it get a bit more difficult. Most pedophiles I have meet I would say fine no problem. Although even then it gets difficult since he's my nephew and not my son I'd feel a lot more concerned that should it come out that I knew this person as a pedophile and hid that fact it would be a big problem ethically, and I'm not saying should it come out after a sexual relationship I'm saying should it come out period. There are some that I have met that I doubt would do anything in appropriate but I think I would be very suspicious and considering the ethical issue above I'd probably be a major pain in their ass. In the end I would have to say its not my position to say who is my nephews friend and who is not but for example to be a pain in the ass I'd be telling my sister while he may be a friend of mine I don't think my nephew should associate with him as he may be a bad influence and hope my sister stepped in. I'd also probably talk to my nephew a lot about the relationship and I am close enough with him, I'd know if I needed to be worried. The last variable is while so far no pedophile that I know has meet my nephew but those that I would introduce to him are ones that have developed a level of trust to begin with so anyone that I might really worry about is never gonna meet him.

However morality is a subjective notion. What you and I may say is Immoral someone in a different culture who was raised differently may find completely moral. For example in the US the Morals of many say that nudity in public such as Movies, TV programs, Newspapers, and so on is Morally objectionable. However in much of Europe it is practically the norm but Violence that is much more accepted in the US is considered more objectionable in Europe. In terms of Pedophilia it does very from culture to culture. Japan had over a Millennia of acceptance of Pedophilia until Commodore Perry Forced them to open up to the west. Japanese considered it morally acceptable. Another example is an Island tribe in the Pacific. The boys in this tribe spend the first 7 years of their life with the women. At 7 they associated with the men and is normal that they are to have sex with older boys 14 to 21. At 14 they can then have sex with the younger boys, my understanding is the older boys teach the younger ones. However at 21 they are considered men and are to Marry and have a wife and kids and heterosexual life style. A man from California in his 30's heard about this and figured Pedophilia was acceptable. By western standards of Morality the 7 year difference in ages of the boys would be defined as Pedophilia. When this man had sex with a young boy in this tribe he was arrested for child abuse. The reason is sex between what they consider children is acceptable but sex between what they consider an adult and a child is not. Reversed if a 20yo boy from this tribe came to our culture and had sex with a 12yo he would be charged with child abuse due to different moral expectations. Which kind of leads me to a question. Excluding Force or coercion or any tactics someone might use to get a child that does not want to have sex to do so with an adult, What is or might be abusive? In other words if the child fully consents to the degree a child can what would be abusive about that? I do have some answers to the question cause I have considered it and debated it else where which is why I support AoC laws. But I'm interested in what others especially non-pedophiles have to say.

Speaking of Religion and morality here is an interesting article. You may have seen it as it was referenced in a link I put in a post I did earlier so if you looked at that source and followed their references it may be old news. However this is a very well done article on a Christian news site. I think they did a great job and is very objective without making the pedophile = Child Molester assumption. I will warn you this is a very very long article that could probably stand to be edited down as there is a bit too much info. It may be good to look over and come back and finish it later if your short on time. http://www.greenbelt.com/news/98/12/02.htm I don't really know actually. I have seen on some forums where other Pedophiles say they have similar experience but I have no clue how common that may be. I can add that a boy I knew about 12 or 13 years ago who was either a bit of a flirt or liked to mirror sexual things he picked up around him is about the only exception. I really have no information on why that may be I might be able to come up with a few educated guesses but at the moment I have no answer or theory.

Well your position is a bit more understandable. However are you really seeing the whole picture. Your position as a victim advocate means that the ONLY side of it that you see is those that have involved abused. What is the likely hood of a you being a victim advocate for a relationship that involves no abuse of any kind? And sense you tend to assume sex when its not there I do mean a relationship where it has nothing in it illegal... in appropriate or other assumptions you may assume associated with Pedophilia other then the Attraction and NOTHING more. Because of the hysteria and paranoia surrounding this its almost impossible to look at this with out the blinders on of seeing the abuse and nothing more. As I said before if you're only knowledge of Heterosexuality is from the worst examples what are you likely to think. Should we assume Robert Blake, Scott Peterson, or OJ Simpson are representative of ALL Heterosexual relationships. Fine enough but does it justify Hating an entire group based on the minority with in them. What studied like lab rats.. ohh joy. Cared about... well telling someone there a Monster, a predator, a child abuser regardless of anything other then the label Pedophile is sure a great example of caring. treated... if they are offenders or have some other problems stemming from say being so cared about sure but otherwise what treatment do we need. And I'm concerned about the child that may have the mis-fortune of coming across someone who has been isolated, rejected shunned and stigmatized by being told he's a monster and a predator and in-capable of anything but abuse... tell someone they are a monster long enough and thats exactly what they will be. [Added link and associated comment] here is a link with some excellent informations pay particular notice to the description of the results of "treatment." -http://www.mhamic.org/sources/gieles.htm- Lets apply some of whats said about Pedophiles to other Minorities. Take Racism if you where to say Arabs are Predators and Monsters can you imagine the outcry that would follow. Considering the War on Terrorism it is easy to image such a slanderous comment being said but its easy to imagine the public out cry as well. How about Men are Predators and Monsters. While I can image some feminists possibly wanting to be able to make such a statement but the outcry again would be deafening. How about Homosexuals are Predators and Monsters. Considering they have only recently gained acceptance this would most certainly create an outcry against someone that made such a statement. You would probably even hear an out cry if you called a Shark a Monster (have to drop predator since it is). Yet when it comes to Pedophiles people can read Predator and Monster and hardly anyone will blink an eye, and raise an outcry... HUH not hardly. And yet I have not seen ANY of the references provided from either side that did not say most pedophiles don't act on their desires.

OK I'm gonna take a different approach to the acceptance aspect. Rather then taking a bunch of quotes and tying myself to those comments I'll just summarize what I think some primarily Bettina and Coral Rhedd but certainly others as well. I'd say a large point is that we should deal with pedophilia by keeping it hidden, keeping it a secret and repressing this aspect of ourself. OK fair enough I question the motivation behind this attitude. Is it to push something people find offensive under the rug, rather then dealing with it. IMO yes but I'll take it on its merit as a point. Have you ever heard of Mike Echols. He's the author of the book that later became a made for TV movie call I know my First name is Steven. He was a self described "enemy of Pedophiles" and a child advocate. Now I'm sure on the surface he might be the kind of person some here might like. He set up an organization to scour the internet searching for pedophiles, like myself, to gather information on. Again I'm sure if you didn't know Mike Echols, you might like the sound of what he's doing. His organization would also seek to find children that where victimized by pedophiles. Starting to think he sounds like a great guy. Well if you never had the mis-pleasure to cross his path you just might think so. However, Prepare for the side of him that is not so pretty. Unlike some of the pedophiles he harassed he IS a convicted child abuser along with a long list of other crimes. He had 53 disc and two magazines containing child pornography seized by the Canadian Immigration while on his way to, get this, a March Against Child Pornography. Why the duality, fighting against pedophiles, while abusing children and crossing the boarder in possession of child pornography. Well according to his Psychological Evaluation a part of it has to do with Repressed Pedophilia. Thats right he was diagnosed as being just like me. I should point out the Diagnosis was done without meeting him in person it was based on his criminal record. To quote from the Diagnosis "Mr. Echols' case clearly represents an archetypal example of a Reaction Formation (an "ego defense mechanism" first described by Sigmund Freud). In psychodynamic theory, the ego deploys defense mechanisms to protect itself from allowing disturbing, unconscious thoughts from ever reaching the level of consciousness." Or said another way the reason he abused children and the reason he possesed child Pornography all the while claiming to be working to stop both is because he repressed the Pedophile with in his subconscious mind with the upstanding citizen fighting against pedophilia. He was trying to do exactly what society asked of him trying to deny himself so as to be acceptable and unoffensive. Of course maybe his good cause is sufficient to overlook his crimes. Well his organization "Saved" a boy from abuse. But the charges against the accused where dropped, But at least the boy was moved to another State. Of course the move was due to harassment and death threats because of a flier his organization circulated with the Victims picture and name on it... unfortunately this harassment followed him to his new location You can read more about him here but just for Everyones info this is a pedophile site... its legal and clean with mostly info and discussion but I don't want anyone accusing me of hiding this fact. The link goes just to Mike Echols Un-authorized Biography and nothing else you'll have to shorten the URL to see anything else. -http://www.safet.net/echols/tubome.html-

One would hope. Coral Rhedd sounds like she maybe better able to answer then I, but the punishments I have heard about don't seem to be less, but as with the AoC laws themselves varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I did read on IMDb forum a women whose husband is a registered sex offender in the US. As a result his neighbors are informed he's a registered sex offender, he can't get a decent job even though he has a college degree. His offence... when he was 17 he had sex with his 16yo girlfriend in a state with a AoC of 16 but no Romeo Juliet laws that would otherwise have excused this. I also read a horrific story about a mother whose son molested his little brother. From the report the school interrogated it out of the younger boy and then reported the abuse to the police. After going through all the therapy for the younger son and the aversion therapy for the older son in the end she said the process did more damage then her son had done and wished she lived in a country with more sensible attitudes. I'll find it there is interest but I'll put out first of all I think it is mostly a modern myth as I find a number of aspects to be hard to believe... I also subsequently found out it was published in a NAMBLA bulletin so I really started to suspect it. Well at the moment only one actually... and that is sort of a not really counts. Her Boy Friend is a Pedophile and I meet her through a Pedophile Forum. I am in the process of trying to tell my best friend but have not told him as there is a lot of distance and since I'm not close to his wife it makes it more difficult as I need to find if he would want to tell her as well. I may be out to my dad but if so we have not talked about it. On the other hand he may be in denial. I do know people who have come out and most report it went pretty well. The owner of a board I'm on was open to a lot of his professors and other students at his University. There are some Strangers that know it as I tend to get together with others and well people inevitably listen in as we talk and well its fun to watch their reactions.

Well hey I would expect no more then that. In fact I'd probably wonder about you if you didn't find the concept of it so. OHHHH boy I see this as a question that Bettina and Coral Rhedd are NOT gonna like the answer to. I actually do want to have children and hope that I can find a wife some day. However its a bit difficult since my primary attraction is to Boys.. any wife I manage to find is gonna have to have a HUGE heart to say the least... first she'll have to realise she's second to boys, she better not ask me to give up motorcycling like my last girlfriend and she's gonna have to know and accept me as a pedophile. I suspect I'm more then shooting for the moon but I have met such women... in fact I know that if she did not already have a BoyFriend I'd probably ask her out. BTW she meets ALL those requirements including knowing I'm a boy loving Pedophile.

No I don't know that and I don't believe she meant that. She's not a Pedophile so why would anyone think she has ever been tempted by a Prepubescent boy. But Hatred of me is justified because I am tempted by a sexual desire I never asked for or decided on. Of course I'm tempted boys that is the definition of a homosexual pedophile but is my being tempted, but more crucially I've resisted that temptation. Still that makes me some kind of animal and monster, and a person acceptable to hate.

You're telling me you've never been tempted when the opportunity for sex with someone your attracted to came up... Well you certainly are different then me but I'd say if when an opportunity to have sex with someone your attracted to came up you where not tempted that maybe your the one with the problem not me. Yes I do recall saying I'm interested in changing them but don't recall saying to help people like me although I suppose I could say it may have that effect. I think AoC laws of about 14 or 15 is about right and 16 is not bad but 18 and 21 are just ridiculous IMO. The changes I think need to be made are things like expanding Romeo and Juliet laws so fewer children have their lives ruined by being listed as a sex offender because they played around while under age. If 2 children that are below the AoC (or when R&J laws below the R&J AoC) have consensual sex with each other generally the one that first reports it is the victim and the other the the sex offender. When discovered in many locations it is the older that is the offender or if male/female it is the male that is the sex offender. This gets very complicated as there are so many different AoC laws some better then others. OK Guilty as charged... other then you finding it offensive so what. Read the follow up to that post. OK How does doing those thing hurt people other then making people confront a controversial and disturbing issue. If my goal was to abuse children being open and honest is the LAST thing I would want. When you don't know I'm a pedophile, when I come off as Normal and acceptable that is exactly when I have the power to abuse. By keeping this a secret I can build up your trust. The last thing I would want is you to know that I'm a pedophile as it will immediately put you on guard.

Thats totally illogical. In my Local newspaper it is legal for them to use child models to show childrens underwear and many of them do. In the UK that exact same image is Class 1 Child Porn. So since in the UK its Porn the child was by your logic abused but in Germany the exact same image magically is Abuse free, HOW?

Hehe Ohhhh klanger nice try I must say but apparently your so eager to fit me into your pre-conceived ideas that you don't even read what I wrote. So if I am to understand you correctly I am supporting the Pornography industry... Well I must say this will come as shocking news to many. I was not aware all this time that Paramount, Universal pictures and others are in the Child Pornography industry and are abusing children (actually on the second point might be a bit more ture )... I'm sure many Museums will also be pleased to learn they are in the Child Pornography industry as well. Yes we should certainly clothe The David and get this filthy child pornography out of Florence. Shame, shame on Michelangelo. What I have was produced legally... purchased legally in legally operating respected stores with out the abuse of the boys involved. The fact the UK classifies them as porn does not mean that children where abused or are a part of the Child Porn industry. It's all fine that you think you don't look at these legitimate so call child porn. I'm not talking Medical books... Ever scene the Movie Angela's Ashes I would guess not since I'm sure you're not gonna support this child porn industry.... Take a look again if you dare... Ohhhh my god Child nudity. How about Pelle the Adventurer, or Lord of the Flies (1963). Ever heard of Sally Mann. She has been accused of producing Child Porn but nudity in and of itself is not pornography, and for that reason the charges where dropped although beware in the UK it most likely IS considered porn. Take a look at all this Pornography that people support when they visit museums... if you dare it does contain child nudity and we all know of the child porn industry located in New York Museums. -http://www.nymuseums.com/ps02101t.htm- I'm sorry but just because the UK is in the midst of mass hysteria over pedophilia with many other countries hot on its heals does not mean that everything illegal in the UK is truly porn in which a child was abused to produce it. The UK has taken such ridiculously draconian and shameful steps justified on the hatred of Pedophiles the British should be concerned about their civil liberties.

Actually I was puzzled my self at first. Looking at his location I just saw Hampshire and assumed NEW Hampshire, USA so figured while they are much stricter then Germany, child nudity is still legal, but now that I see it is the UK and not USA I realize that a picture in the UK need not even include nudity to be considered Porn. Children in underwear and speedos are porn as well as pictures posed erotically, which I understand is up to the judge to define Erotic, are considered porn. Along with probably a few of the programs broadcast on Kinder Kanal although maybe motion pictures are a little more relaxed on nudity.

Yes I own and have looked at such pictures, whats the big deal there? I can go into most any book store and look at pics of naked children as well, so whats the big deal. I can go into my local travel office and pick up catalogs with pictures of naked children in it, ohhh lord help us. I can even go to my local video store and rent movies with naked children in it. I can also go to the beach and see actual naked children there... so whats the big deal? reminds me of a friend of mine, he recommended the film Titanic to an American colleague... The colleague complained about this recommendation as he had taken his family to see it. My friend apologized as he forgot about the violence and death at the end, and that it might not be so appropriate for some children. No the guy had no problem with that it was the couple seconds of nudity that had him upset.

Bettina what is so terrible about acceptance. I'm not talking about condoning abuse but simply saying I accept you and will judge you as an individual and a human... is that really so terrible thing to ask for. I mean really and truly let me repeat it again... Accepted as an INDIVIDUAL and a HUMAN. Man am I not despicable to ask for just that small bit. While your googling Pedophile take a look at some of the news stories. You'll all to frequently find pedophiles described as a 'predator' one that preys, destroys, or devours 2. an animal that lives by predation. Or this other common term that can be found at the top of the link provided by Coral Rhedd "uncover the truth in the faces of monsters" -http://www.plf.net/robinsbiowriting/respaper.htm- I'm not even afforded the dignity of being called a human, I'm less then human, because for what ever reason, but reasons out of my control, am attracted to children, so I must not be human. This is not unusual, hated segments of society are often made to be less then human. Slavery was justified as blacks where less then human. Women denied the vote because they where incapable of intelligent logical thought. It's rationalization used to excuse inappropriate behavior, just as a pedophile that engages in sex with a child rationalizes that its OK and acceptable. In both cases the rationalization is dangerous. Simply because of my attraction I'm subjected to laws that apply to no one else. Extra-jurisdictional laws are created and excused because of the hatred of Pedophiles. I'm sure you're willing to accept the idea of the government enforcing its laws outside its jurisdiction on pedophiles because pedophiles are horrible evil monsters, but this creates a dangerous precedent. Pedophiles in many locations are not afforded the right to face their accuser or even afforded the right to view the evidence to be used against them. Once again its excused because we are talking about the horrific acts done by a pedophile, thus suspension of civil rights can thusly be justified. I don't see how asking to be accepted is such a terrible thing. I'm not asking for laws to be change although I do think in some cases they should be changed. That is a discussion to be had human to human not human to predator or monster. No one is even asking that your empathies not be directed towards the child that is a victim of sexual abuse, or that you not hate someone for their actions against a child. What we are asking for is to be judged and evaluated like all humans, based on our actions not on the actions of someone else or the fear of some mythical monster. So once again... what is so terrible about asking to be accepted as an individual and a human?

Coral Rhedd in terms of my criticism of the clinical and legal studies let me add this. If you did a study of Heterosexuality and to find subject to study went to the police and to therapists and asked for references to those involved in heterosexual sex what kind of samples would you get? Would you really be studying heterosexuality or would you be studying rape? Apply that to Pedophilia which admittedly this is not a perfect analogy but still close enough to be valid. If you go to police and therapists and ask to speak to this involved in pedophilic relationships are you studying pedophilia or are you studying child sex abuse? Would you be surprised then in either study to find that the effects upon the victims are harmful. This is not to say that either studies results are disingenuous or inaccurate other then to the degree that you must be certain that you don't apply the results, to those that where not the subject of the study.