mikeco

Dr Krettin, I don't think the Greeks knew, and I implied they didn't, because if they had, I think it would somehow have made it down through the ages to us today. But I used the word “apparently”, hoping that it would qualify my overall statement. Because as you point out, maybe they did. I won't deny that I have the capacity to be arrogant and narrow-minded, but I've always had that capacity, even before I became a Christian. I was born with that capacity and so were you. It's called pride, the desire to command respect. But maybe I have more of it than you or anyone else on Earth. And maybe that's why God told me his definition of pride...perhaps I needed to know it more than anyone else. As for love...I didn't have the true concept. So I asked God for it. Love isn't defined in the Bible. It seems like it would be and most Christians actually think that it is. I did, until God showed me otherwise. The Bible tells us how love can be expressed but it doesn't tell us what love means. I assumed, based on my own beliefs, that since God created the word, that he should know what it means. If he doesn't, then he can't be much of a God. So I asked him, for his meaning of pride, understanding, wisdom and eventually, love. I have not stated it here, but I'm just trying to point out that, if the Gods of other cultures tell me the exact definitions of these words, as the God of the Bible has done, then I will be more than willing to listen to anything else they may have to say. But for right now, the God of the Bible is the only one speaking. Regards, Mikeco TAR, Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. I know why you were filled with “pride.” That's obvious, because of your love for your daughter, a love which would be there regardless of what she accomplished. But what I meant was, why would you think you were filled with pride rather than being filled with love? A thousand years ago, under the same circumstances, a parent would have said they were filled with love or respect or admiration for their daughter...but not pride, because back then, pride was evil. So, I was curious as to why you referred to it as pride rather than love because it rather seems as if the distinction between the two has become blurred, and that doesn't seem to have always been the case. From my perspective, if we blur the meaning of pride, as we have done over the years, and use it in place of love, respect, or admiration, then we lose the ability to see just how evil pride is. And if pride isn't so evil anymore, then things like humility are no longer so important. And I think our society is reflecting that. We also lose the opportunity to tell our children that we are filled with love for them and respect and admiration. For me to tell my children that they have made me proud and they have filled me with pride, puts the focus on me and the burden on them to do that which will make me proud of them. But for me to tell my children that I am filled with love because of them, and admiration and respect, puts the focus on them and who they are as individuals, and they are set free from any burden that they may feel to “make me proud.” I would agree that we all have a need or desire to be thought of in a good light and be respected. However, to me that is far different than the desire to COMMAND respect. Sometimes, respect must be commanded, but it shouldn't be because someone desires to. But I understand your different perspective of it. Regards, Mikeco

It just occurred to me that regardless of ones view of pride, good or bad, "the desire to command respect" is still a large part of our world, and that desire doesn't necessarily have to be referred to as pride. It still exists whether it has a name or not, and it seems to be the basis for arguments, road rage, power struggles, and a host of other things whenever someone feels disrespected. It's evident throughout the news every day. So would you agree that the desire to give respect is the beginning of love, since it seems impossible to express any form of love without that desire, and that the desire to command respect is the opposite of love? Regards, Mikeco

TAR, What aspect of pride would cause you to think that you were filled with pride? Because you had a deep and profound emotional respect and admiration for your daughter? From my view, that would be love, rather than pride. Historically pride was always evil and from what I understand, it still is. But I have not always thought that way. Like you, there were times when I thought I was filled with pride. My view has changed, as I've come to realize that pride was not what I was filled with, unless I happened to be filled with the desire to command respect, which has been the case more often than I care to recall. In some cases I was filled with deep respect and sometimes love. But I viewed it as pride. In short, I believe we have gradually mis-defined the word over the last few hundred years. In this case, the old is better than the new. After watching a video of what people thought pride was, I realized that the evil connotation of pride is being replaced by what I see as a false positive connotation. And that is why the world seems to be rapidly filling with pride...it's very difficult to identify. I could never see it in myself because although I'm sure I have my moments, most people would not refer to me as prideful. But when God gave me his definition, my pride which was of a very subtle nature, became crystal clear. Your view of pride as possibly being a good thing, precludes you from seeing it as the opposite of love. That's understandable. But many people believe indifference or hate is the opposite of love. Since you probably don't see them as good things, can you accept one of them as being love's opposite? And if you can, then the thing that I might would mention, is that indifference and hate are attitudes that develop out of pride, out of the desire to command respect. And therefore pride would ultimately be the opposite of love.But of course, if one views pride as a feeling of deep respect, satisfaction, or admiration, then it might very well be impossible to view it as the opposite of love. And in that case, it's back to the drawing board. Regards, Mikeco

TAR, Let me first address the aspect of God. I understand that you and probably every person here doesn't believe that God speaks and most, probably don't think he exists. The reason I mention him, is because when I give a quote, I always try to credit the author, and in this case it just happens to be God. So if I mention him, it's for that purpose, because I wouldn't feel right not crediting him with whatever he has said or revealed to me, even though you think it's simply my own thoughts on the subject and may not think that there's even anything worth crediting. Moving on to the idea of affection as being present in the different forms of love. That may indeed be the case. It would seem so, but as you are already aware, affection is an emotion and that still leaves us without an exact definition. However, if we merely have compassion for a person in need, and attempt to meet their need whatever it may be, is that also not love, even though there is no emotional affection involved? The Bible, which I reference for many things, would indicate that it is. But assuming affection is present in all forms of love, the reason I mention pride, is because I suspect it may lead us to an exact definition of love. There appears to be different kinds of pride just as there are different kinds of love. And if pride is the opposite of love, then some of what is true about pride may also be true about love. Black and white are opposite colors but they are both colors...I think. East and west are opposite directions but they are both directions...I think...anyway, hopefully you get the idea. So looking at God's definition of pride...”pride is the desire to command respect”...we can see that according to this definition, pride appears to be a desire. And assuming that is true, then we can assume that love is also a desire, even though its meaning would be entirely different than that of pride. But many people think of love as an emotion or an attitude, certainly not a desire. I doubt there's a website that would refer to love as a desire, but there may be. However, although pride is a desire, attitudes and emotions develop out of that desire. For as I mentioned in a previous comment, the emotional anger in a road rage situation, develops because of someone's desire to command the respect they felt they didn't receive. The anger isn't there because they got cut off, but because they have allowed themselves to be filled with the desire of pride. Someone else in the same situation may just continue driving peacefully...without pride. Marital arguments most often occur for the same reason...someone feels disrespected, and then wants to command the respect they feel they didn't get and the argument takes off. No disrespect was meant, but someone feels disrespected and reacts with pride. Pride seems to be more of a reaction whereas humility seems to be more of a response to the temptation of pride. So if attitudes and emotions develop out of the desire of pride, would it not be possible that attitudes and emotions also develop out of the desire of love? Even though those attitudes and emotions are just an expression of love and not actually what love is. We haven't defined love yet, but perhaps we are narrowing it down as to what it is...a desire, out of which attitudes and emotions develop...attitudes such as, kindness, helpfulness, selflessness, and patience, and emotions such as compassion, and affection. Thus, if pride as the opposite of love, is the desire to command respect, then looking at this definition in an opposite manner may reveal some insight. If we substitute love for the word pride, and if we take the root of the Hebrew word for love (ahava), which as mentioned earlier, means “to give”, and we substitute “to give” for “to command”, we end up with...love is the desire TO GIVE respect...the opposite of the definition of pride. Is the desire to give respect, present in all forms of love...in all of love's attitudes and emotions? I would certainly think so. If it isn't, then perhaps what is being expressed is more of a lust than love. Is love the desire to give respect? Yes and no. Love is indeed the desire to give respect and respect seems to be perhaps the only thing that everyone wants. But this definition is the opposite of pride, and love is far more than what its opposite could ever be. Pride is small and insignificant but love is boundless and without measure. The Bible states that God is love. So while Satan, full of pride, is the opposite of God, is God the opposite of Satan? No, for he is far beyond what his opposite could ever possibly be. So God is not the opposite of anything and neither is love. It might could be said that love is not the opposite of its opposite. So where does that leave us? Hopefully, closer than we were before. Is the desire to give respect present in all forms of love? I would say yes. Is that the definition of love? No. Are we on the right track? Yes...of course not everyone or anyone for that matter, may agree. How do I know? Because God sometimes tells me things. Why me? I don't know, but these are not my ideas. So if love is not just the desire to give respect, something that everyone wants, but is something greater...then what is greater than that? Not quite sure what you mean by “backing up the pride thing.” Will the examples I've given suffice or were you looking for something else? Regards, Mikeco

Alright you got me. I guess not everybody knew it.

So what is consistently present across all definitions? The answer to that question is the key to love. The Greeks apparently didn't know, or I suspect they would have stated it. They defined different kinds, or forms of love but they didn't define love. There are different kinds of pride but only God knew the exact definition, (pride is the desire to command respect), the thing that is present across all the different kinds. Because he was the one who created the word. The same is true with love. The Hebrews seem to have come a bit closer. The Hebrew word for love is “ahava” and the root of this means “to give.” So is giving, the thing that is present across all forms of love? It certainly sounds good. But the Bible points out that giving can be done without love, even to the point of giving one's body to be burned. So love is not defined merely by the concept of giving, but by a certain aspect of giving. Identify the aspect, and you will define love.

I suspect that the opposite of humility is arrogance, because they are both attitudes, and thus you have one attitude as the opposite of another attitude, rather than an attitude (humility) as the opposite of a desire (pride). For God's definition of pride (pride is the desire to command respect) states that pride is a desire, not an attitude. And that desire is the thing from which all negative attitudes develop, including hate. You can have pride without hate but you generally cannot have hate without first having pride. Hence, it would appear that hate, indifference, arrogance etc are PRIDEFUL ATTITUDES that are opposite the LOVING ATTITUDES...of kindness, concern, humility, helpfulness, patience, compassion, and so on. But what is the opposite of love itself? I suspect it is pride. Does love always build? I meant that generally it does.

I've never considered that and it may be accurate if self-love begins to conflict with loving someone else. I've always thought of it in the negative traditional sense such as exaggerated self-esteem, arrogance, conceit, and indifference. But as time passed, pride began to take on a positive connotation, such as a healthy self-esteem. The question would then seem to be, if pride can be a good thing and a bad thing, where exactly does one draw the line between a healthy and exaggerated self-esteem? Hence, it's hard to understand how pride can be the opposite of love, unless one understands God's definition of pride, rather than our own. But his definition cannot be found in the Bible and I'm not sure why. However, the best way to see it is to look at what may be the epitome of a prideful situation...road rage. Driver A purposely cuts off driver B. Driver B feels a tinge of disrespect but continues driving peacefully down the road. Driver A then cuts off driver C and driver C also feels disrespected but instead of continuing on peacefully, he decides to cut off driver A. Why? Because driver A cut him off? No. Because of pride. Immediately after driver C felt disrespected, he had a desire; a desire to command the respect, that he felt he had not been given, and that desire is what led him to cut off driver A. “PRIDE IS THE DESIRE TO COMMAND RESPECT.” That's not my definition. And those are not my words...those are God's. He literally spoke the words...clearly, and to the best of my knowledge, that definition of pride cannot be found anywhere else. Why did he tell me? I don't have a clue. I asked and maybe no one else ever did. You will notice that pride is not an attitude such as arrogance, exaggerated self-esteem, conceit, indifference, hate, or unforgiveness. Pride is a DESIRE, and those attitudes develop in a person's life, after the desire to command respect has begun to take complete control of the person. We are all born with that desire...it's part of our sinful natures. We cannot escape it. Two year old children do not even know what the word respect means, but they certainly know how to attempt to command it. And that desire explains how perfectly created beings such as Satan and Adam and Eve could fall. They didn't fall from arrogance...they didn't have have it. But when they were confronted with that desire, they allowed it to rule. That desire explains two year old children and it explains adults. However, most people, although they exhibit pride, and have that desire, are mature enough not to exhibit the ATTITUDES of pride on a consistent basis. Some do but most don't. At least not at this point. Driver B did not react with pride, although he was confronted with it. He had the desire also, just as driver C did, but he chose to humble himself and subdue it, rather than allowing his pride to control him. Humility isn't lowliness, or a low view of one's own importance as the dictionary implies. Humility is simply an attitude of willingness to subdue one's pride. Christ didn't have a low view of his importance. He knew very well how important he was to the people of this world but he was completely humble and totally without pride. All negative attitudes stem from that desire and that is why, although there are many opposites of love, pride is the primary opposite of love. You can have pride without having those attitudes, but you cannot have those attitudes with out first having the desire to command respect. Because that's what those attitudes are all about. Pride is just expressed in different ways. Pride is expressed through indifference, through hate, through arrogance, through apathy, through conceit and on it goes. Even unforgiveness, the most basic negative attitude of all, stems from pride, the desire to command respect. And in the eyes of God, pride is never a good thing, it is always evil. Regardless of whether one believes in Satan, it appears that the world has been deceived into believing that the very thing that he fell from can actually be a good thing. It isn't. It's interesting that the Bible mentions pride and arrogance as being two different things. That's because they are. It also points out that every argument since the beginning of time has happened only because of pride. No other reason. Disagreements are fine, but not pride. If we want better relationships with our spouses and children and friends, then we must learn to recognize and subdue that desire. Because when the desire to command respect grows, it becomes horribly destructive. And it grows very subtly. The world is saturated with pride. The way we walk, the way we talk, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the schools we attend, the houses we build, the jobs we seek, can all be a source of pride, of that desire to command respect. Advertising caters to it, and status symbols wouldn't exist without it. And when pride becomes the most important thing on Earth, even more so than following society's laws, you begin to see things like the horrific cruelty that is rapidly growing in America. And prisons begin to overflow. In prison, it's all about the desire to command respect and most don't see anything wrong with that. O J Simpson spent years in prison because of his pride. John Gotti, the mafia “Dapper Don” knew all about that desire. Pride is everywhere. Our President knows about that desire. North Korea's leader certainly does. And so do all the rest of us. The animal kingdom is filled with pride...that's how they exist. It's all about commanding respect. However animals, and two year old children don't know any better. But even parents who don't believe in God, try to help their children to mature beyond their desire to command respect. And adults who learn how to subdue that desire are thought of as mature and referred to as wise. Adults who do not learn how to subdue their pride are thought of as immature and quite often referred to as prisoners. Because to them, that desire became the most important thing on Earth. How can we help prisoners to rehabilitate? By helping them to recognize and overcome their pride. No one talks about humility anymore. Not even churches, because it's all about pride and how we should embrace it, not realizing that it's a simple little desire, that has brought down people, nations...and even angels. “Addicted To Love”? ...no...we're addicted to pride. Sorry about the long post....hard to explain in a few words. But this is why I see pride as the opposite of love. Pride destroys. Love builds.

I certainly don't disagree, and if you re-read my comments, you will see that I never said that it does.

My original comment however will show that it's not about being special, or a "deeper, special" kind of belief.

If you re-read my comments, you will see that they are about knowing that Christ EXISTS, not about knowing Christ better than someone else, or about believing in him more than someone else. And the reason I know Christ exists, is because he has revealed his existence to me. He has done the same for millions of other Christians and that is why we know he's alive because he has made himself known to us, not because we have a "deeper, special" kind of belief. When Christ makes himself known, it no longer has anything to do with belief. I have however, known followers of Christ, who had not experienced Christ's existence. I don't know why they hadn't and perhaps that was the situation you found yourself in. But I do know that a person will not experience the existence of God, if they stop seeking him. From your comment, if you believe in the Easter bunny, then the question is, what did the Easter bunny do to make its existence known to you? Or do you simply believe in the Easter bunny? Your friend appears to simply have a belief in the Easter bunny's existence, without ever having had the Easter bunny make itself known to him. Hence, it would be easy for your friend to no longer believe. If you have a "deeper" belief than your friend but still have never had the Easter bunny make itself known to you, then you also may eventually choose to no longer believe, just like your friend. But of course, we're not really talking about an Easter bunny. The question is, are you willing to seek Christ until he makes himself known to you? If not, is it because you don't really want to know that he exists?

Christ said his followers would hear him and he sometimes speaks amazing things. Things that no other person knows. But you and I disagree and I am content to leave it at that. Best regards.

From reading about your relationship with your wife, you seem to be a man of understanding and wisdom. Yet I wonder, if Christ were to reveal himself beyond doubt, would you receive him and follow him? I suspect probably not, and if that is the case, then the issue would not seem to be one of scientific proof, but of willingness. I do not understand why God would allow a world such as this. He didn't create it this way, yet the only way for him to have ensured absolute peace, would have been to create us without a free will, and hence pride would never have been an issue. We then would have been zombies. Happy zombies, but zombies nevertheless. I sometimes wonder if that wouldn't have been preferable to the horrific cruelty in this world that pride has brought about. But it would have been against God's nature for him to deny us free will.

I'm not sure I can answer all those without straying too far from the original question in this thread, but I'll try. All Christians agree that one must receive Christ and his Spirit in order to even begin to follow him. Beyond that, yes there are disagreements and a lot of them. But I don't think it's odd. God could have made everything perfectly clear but I believe the reason he didn't was because he wanted Christians to learn to mature. And there's no better way to do that, than to have people learn to overcome their pride, by discussing their differences. PRIDE is the problem of the human race, especially Christians, and has been from the very beginning. If God had made everything clear, then there would be no opportunity for people to humble themselves and learn to overcome their pride by learning to accept another person's point of view. God didn't make things confusing. He simply left some things rather vague...for a purpose. Unfortunately, Christians in America seem to be arguing more than ever. Disagreements are fine but arguing involves pride. "Why doesn't your god make the evidence for his existence scientifically provable to form global 'religious' equality?" Christ did miracles, yet there were countless people who were unwilling to follow him. Miracles also take place today, but I suppose what you're really asking is why God doesn't make his existence known beyond doubt. I suspect the reason is twofold. First, not one person would follow him who was not already willing to do so. Ask yourself, would you be willing to receive Christ and follow him if he made himself known to you? If you hesitate to say yes, then the problem is not one of proof but of willingness. Second, if God were to reveal himself beyond doubt, then those who are unwilling to receive him would be held more accountable for that truth. Killings in the name of religion and pretty much everything else take place because of pride. To really understand this, one would need to understand God's definition of pride, but that would probably be be too far off topic for this thread.

I see it a bit differently. Knowing something does not necessarily mean that it can be proven beyond doubt but that it has been proven beyond doubt. And to me, the existence of Jesus Christ has been proven beyond a doubt. Do I have such proof? It certainly is proof enough for me, for Christ makes himself known to people in different ways. But the question for you would seem to be, do you want proof and are you willing to follow Christ if he provides it? Most people just want the proof, but God only provides it to those who will follow him. For example, there is a question that the world has wondered about for ages. As a follower of God, I knew that he was the only one who had the answer. So I decided to ask him, not for proof that he existed, because I already knew that, but because I wanted to know the answer to the question. But I didn't hear a thing. I kept praying 2 times a day for months, and still no answer. I finally decided that I would keep praying until one of two things happened; either God would tell me the answer or I died, whichever came first. After about two and a half years of praying twice a day about this particular thing, God gave me the answer. He does not give up his secrets easily but his secrets are amazing. So if proof from God is what you want, then you must ask and not give up. And of course there are people like you and beecee who have decided for one reason or another that Christ simply isn't real. Tolerance is indeed a beautiful thing...well put.