Furyan5

Light (EMR) is noumenal. Color is phenomenal. We can't 'see' noumenal things. If light had color, we would see Orange light radiating from the Orange in all directions.

We're taught to call that specific color a certain name. We don't actually know whether we see the same color.

Please educate yourself. This is high school stuff.https://kids.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/frym.2013.00010

How about neuroscientific fact from this century? When the eyes detect light patterns, they send electrochemical impulses to the brains visual cortex where the brain creates a visual representation of the outside world. The objects you see are not outside your body. They are simulations created by our brain. Only the objects in our simulated reality have 'color' hue.

So let me get this straight. You believe the light has color?

Black isn't a color and neither is orange. They are both hues. Color is a property of an object, which causes it to absorb or reflect certain wavelengths of light. Properties don't change. An orange in a dark room is orange in color and has a black hue. Hue is a visual sensation created by our brain in response to the wavelength of light our eyes do or do not detect.

Sorry. I just posted my answer under the relevant point. I'm using a phone, so I'm still getting used to how this site works. The problem, as I see it, is a lack of understanding how vision works. People wrongly assume we see 'an external' reality. Based on this belief, see1 and see2 have no difference. Comprehending that the 'reality' we perceive is 'an internal representation' of 'outside reality' is key to understanding the difference between see1 and see2. When our eyes 'detect' (see1) light, our brain creates images of the objects 'from which the light originates. We perceive (see2) these representations. We don't consciously see1. What we can see2, is brightness and colors, which are both visual sensations created by our brain. Not actual light, but representations of light.

I did actually try starting a new thread, saying just that. Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to post it. Thanks Swan

Lol plus you need water to make beer. We're running a bit low on water atm. Well philosophy is a broad field. You're allowed to discuss physics and neuroscience, under philosophy. I don't have a problem with that. My opinion. Unlike others, I don't force my opinion on others.

Why on earth would I do that?

Maybe you are right. But by making artificial new words I tried to keep emotional attachments to meanings of words out. It is a strategy that most of the time works, but not with everybody, not always... Obviously it won't always work. From a neuroscience perspective the word 'see' has a very distinct definition, whereas in physics, it has a very generic definition. In physics, to see means, to detect with the eyes. The 'visible light spectrum' is the light we can 'see'. Objects make light visible. Unfortunately, the conclusion of this way of thinking is that this makes objects 'invisible' as all we ever 'see' is light. We infer objects. In neuroscience, to see means to consciously perceive. The 'visible light spectrum' is the range of light 'by which we see'. Light makes objects visible. Objects are visible and we infer light. The question "Can we see light" doesn't belong in the physics section. Sight is a neurological process. You can't answer it without touching on neuroscience and if you DO, you get banned. But neuroscience isn't philosophy. It's science, just not physics.

No thanks, I'm good. As long as you're not implying that the eyes send actual light to the visual cortex, I don't have a problem.

Apparently not. He seems to think electrochemical impulses are a form of light. Photo-electric transduction is exactly that. The conversion of light into electrical impulses. It's the 'electrical impulses' which travel from the eye to the brain. Not light.

Light fed from the eyes to the brain? You believe the eyes send light to the brain?

Does a tree make light visible, or does light make a tree visible? I'm not denying that our eyes detect light, but what do we see? We already have a word for see2. It's called detecting. We detect light. We don't see light. We see objects because our eyes detect light.

Yes, we agree so far. Since this narrow band of wavelengths is the means by which humans see, we refer to it as the visible light spectrum. (these are not my words, but copied from a physics web page). http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/light/Lesson-2/The-Electromagnetic-and-Visible-Spectra

So, it's invisible, unless it hits your eye directly. And if it hits your eye, you see the source of the light. Visible light is the light which allows us to see.

Visible light is the EM radiation, detectable by the human eye. I appreciate you trying to help, but you're caving to public opinion. You know from personal experience that light can be detected and yet not seen. http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/light/Lesson-2/The-Electromagnetic-and-Visible-Spectra Skip to the part Visible Light Spectrum. Interestingly, this is a physics site.

You do realize the the brightness you see is subjective right? That it's a visual sensation and not a property of light itself. Just like color. You perceive brightness, because of light. You don't perceive light itself.

That's because I don't agree. Visible light is the light which makes objects visible. All electromagnetic radiation consists of boson particles, which are not visible to the naked eye.

So you're saying, from a physics perspective, light is visible, but generally speaking, it's not.

Physicists aren't equipped to answer and they reject any non-physics answers. But by now I'm sure the answer is obvious. Like it or not. Furyan out.

Actually I fully agree. Vision is a neurological process. The question 'is light visible' is a question which physicists are ill equipped to answer. The question doesn't belong here.

Exactly, if a distinction between 'detect' and 'see' is not made, the answer changes. I have shown that an eye can detect without the subject seeing. Detection is not seeing, therefore, we can't see light.