Eric H

How can it be rational to say, forget truth? The universe came into being somehow; when we find out how it happened, it will no longer be subjective. When science talks about the dangers of smoking, we accept there is sufficient evidence to back this up and most people accept it; even the smokers I know don't seem to argue against the evidence. I think science is constantly being challenged when it seems to fall short of truth. Just my 2c.

How the universe came into being is history, and we can't change history. Mankind has always had a need to know the truth of where we came from. How do we separate 'truth' from clever arguments? This seems to be true.

But are they? There have been graphic pictures and warnings on cigarette packets in the UK; telling us about the dangers of smoking; yet many people choose to ignore these facts. I would suggest there is far more evidence about the dangers of smoking; than there is for how the universe came into existence. I would suggest that we can find many rational arguments for creation. The most rational argument would be based on the truth, whatever that is.

Either, there is at least one god who created the universe and life or there is no god at all. You could be a hundred percent right or wrong on the toss of a coin; you cannot have a maybe or probable creator god. For the universe to exist today; either something had to have no beginning, or something did not come from anything.

Striving for peace is even better.

The science-y fable we all strive to understand is something with no beginning; or something that did not come from anything.

Fair enough, but I fail to see the purpose of such an exercise.

So if you converted the alphabet to a binary code, there are now a 128 possible different combinations to create the letter 'm'. I would suggest that if you converted the four lines of your quote above to a binary code, the odds of coin flipping to get it right would be astronomical. It would not be the easily achieved million to one odds. It makes a difference to the monkeys, how are you going to encourage a monkey to bang away at a typewriter for its entire life? I am struggling to imagine a monkey that can live forever.

When you say the complete work of Shakespeare, do you mean all thirty seven plays plus all the poems and sonnets? Are you suggesting giving every letter of the alphabet a binary code of 0's and 1's? Would you give upper case letters a different binary code? The complete work of Shakespeare has a finite number of characters; how would you randomly stop coin flipping at the exact number of characters, after getting it word perfect? If Hamlet is mentioned fifty times in the play, that would only make sense if custard was substituted fifty times. If Hamlet is given fifty different names, the plot will not make sense. Even if Hamlet is only called 'pxzlkw' five times, how will that make sense? Random mistakes seem the more likely scenario.

Supposing the monkey completes the first page perfectly; then makes a mistake. How will it know to go back to the beginning and start again?

Every leader knows the formula for war, it is spelt out by Herman Goering, and we the people still fall for it today.

Sorry, I am not sure how I am proselytising, could you explain please? The thread asks how to turn a believer away from their beliefs, I thought I was just responding to some of the arguments.

We can't change God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, just because we worship seemingly different gods. The same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation; and that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences. Sadly this is pretty near impossible, Christianity would make more senses if there were thousands of Jesus Christs; one for each of our denominations; we can't even agree amongst ourselves. I live in hope that we are changing. In our town; Christians are praying together; and finding ways to help people in need.

If God can create the universe and life, then all these things should be minor miracles by comparison.

I think the law of God is a profound subject, in as much that all the law hangs and depends on loving God and our neighbour. We are given a conscience to know the difference between good and evil, so if we could truthfully love our neighbours as we love our selves in a kind way, we should not need any other laws. I cannot understand why anyone would rape, especially when the victim is a child, and the perpetrator is a priest. They above all people should know that they will have to stand before God. God's law of love extends to justice for the poor and the oppressed. The bosses at Apple are worth billions, yet their Chinese workers earn less than a couple of dollars an hour. Customers flock to buy the latest Apple gadget, and ignore the abject misery of the people who make Apple products. Thousands of children die needlessly every day as a result of grinding poverty and preventable disease. If we truly loved all our neighbours as we love ourselves, then there should be a wage justice for all people. Sadly imposable to do as the law of greed rules the earth.

Other people's peace has little impact on me, other than I am pleased they seem content with their lives. I feel deeply disturbed at man's inhumanity to man, I come into contact with a lot of injustice and suffering. As you say, the impact of God may not have a direct affect on me, but we are asked to treat everyone as if they are God. You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God, especially the poor and marginalised.

As you have asked, but might regret. A few years ago, I had tests done for cancer, about a month later the doctor phoned and said he urgently wanted to see me, it was non – Hodgkin Lymphoma, this was a name I recognised, our friend had this cancer, and died a few months later. I prayed for the wisdom, strength, peace and serenity to do God’s will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making this prayer, I have experienced a profound sense of peace, and the thought of cancer has never troubled me for a moment. Cancer could be a truly worrying process, you wait a month or two for tests, you wait for the results, and you wait for more tests, but the prayer to do God’s will sort of handed the problem to God, and I have never had to worry. I have never once prayed for healing, at the age of 62, the prayer for healing seemed too complicated, it might or might not be my time to go. Recognising this profound sense of peace comes from God, gives me reason to be thankful.

There is so much injustice in this world, and laws will never stop injustice. Millions of people have gone to their grave having suffered, if there is no God, then these people will never find justice or peace.

I have been a Street Pastor for about ten years, we go out on our streets from around 11pm until about 4 am on a Friday night. We often come into contact with drunken anger and fights. I can remember the first time, there was about a dozen people fifty yards down the road; and they just started punching each other. We prayed as we approached them, I saw one man punched to the ground, another was being kicked on the floor, and a man swung round and punched a women in the face. We walked in the middle of all this anger, people were in front of me and behind, there was so much I should have worried about. Yet I experienced a profound sense of peace that was truly beyond my understanding whilst in the middle of all the anger. I can only say that after a while things calmed down. We stopped with them for about twenty minutes and when it was time to go, we had lots of handshakes and hugs. I was in my sixties at the time, and I was with two ladies in their seventies.