John Lowe

Bummer indeed. I'll leave you all alone for a bit now, until I have another brainwave.

Thank you all for explaining why this won't work, I think I get it now. Can I just describe a slightly different version of my other method and see if you can help me with that one. Imagine 2 cylindrical projectiles inside a linear accelerator (this is in space inside a space ship). We rotate the projectiles inside the accelerator in opposite directions. This rotation is to give them some relativistic mass. We accelerate the first one (while spinning) down the accelerator, followed by the second one. We give the second one slightly more speed so it catches up with the first one half way down the track. When they meet, they connect somehow and (via friction?) cancel each others rotation out (thus losing the relativistic mass). Then they are decelerated at the other end. The act of decelerating a lighter mass should give us a net velocity gain with no propellant used.

that sounds like a good point, let me ponder.

I thought Coriolis force was fictitious? I'm not sure what you mean by ".. that mass element is then 'pulled' back down to a lower speed.." The extra mass is just extra relativistic mass and is always on the outside. Each wheel has a fraction of relativistic mass due to its own rotation. This is equally spaced around the wheel. But also, each wheel has some extra relativistic mass due to the rotation of the carousel. It is this extra mass that is not equally spaced around the wheel. The outside edge of each wheel has more because it is travelling faster than the inside edge. Even though the wheel is spinning it is always the outside edge that has more "extra" mass.

If you stand near the center of a revolving carousel you are moving slower (same RPM less m/s) than if you stand on the outside edge. Therefore the outside edge of each wheel is travelling faster than the inside edge. I don't understand what you mean by "..... 'pushed' somehow to achieve the extra speed there."

On the "front view" all the wheels rotate in the direction of arrow 'A'. This means that the outside edge of each wheel goes up and the inside edge goes down, towards the center. Then on the "plan view", all the wheel are spun (they have a common cirular shaft through them all) in direction 'B'. The act of spinning all the wheels in direction 'B' is what gives the outside edge of each wheel more mass, as it has a faster velocity V1, than the inside edge, V2. This extra mass is always going up, because it is always on the part of the wheel that is going fastest (in direction 'B' not 'A') If it was a carousel and we remove the horses and replace them with wheels that are pointed and spinning towards the center then as the wheel turn and the carousel turn the lift will be upwards.

This sounds a bit circular and chicken and the egg. I understand F=dp/dt or F=ma, if there is no acceleration then no force. But you are saying there is no change in net p, so no force. I am saying that the fact that one side of the wheel has more momentum than the other side, this will cause a force. (this same force is felt on the axle of spinning, unbalanced wheel). This force will cause an acceleration.

The imbalanced wheel wants to spin around it's center of mass. When it can't because the axle is fixed, it causes a force on the axle, which will move around with the extra mass. In my system the force on the axle would always be up.

That's the whole point, trying to get around that and the conversation of momentum law. Trying to understand why it won't work instead of "you just can't coz it's the law"

It is very in depth for my level of expertise. That is why I am trying to break it down into simple points for people to answer, so I can understand easier.

If you spin a balanced wheel is space it will stay spinning around it's centre. If it is imbalanced, there is more mass on one side than the other, therefore, more momentum in one direction than the other. This will cause the wheel to oscillate, i.e. the axis will scribe a circle in space as the extra mass goes round with the wheel. The extra momentum in my system is always going up. So why won't my system have a force upwards?

Yes.

Not sure about a force diagram but my thinking is this:- If we don't spin the whole unit in direction 'B' and before we spin all the wheels we attach a weight to the outside edge of each wheel. We then spin all the wheels together and at the same speed so all the weights are going up on the outside and down on the inside out the same time. This whole unit would then be imbalanced and if we put it on some scales, I think it would read less when the weights are moving up and less when the weight are moving down. There would have to be forces because that's what we need to correct when we balance wheels. What my aim is to remove the weights and cause a permanent imbalance in the upward direction caused by the extra relativistic mass which would stay on the outside pointing up. Forces would be small, but scaleable and useful in space.

I have a drawing now which should help clarify. Shafts and stands are omitted for clarity. All the wheels spin in direction 'A'. All the wheels are attached to a circular shaft (not shown) and all the wheels rotate together in direction 'B' (they are spinning in direction 'A' at the same time). The outside edge of each wheel will have a linear velocity 'V1' which will be larger than the inside edge velocity 'V2'. Thus the outside edge of each wheel will gain slightly more relativistic mass than the inside edge. This will cause an imbalance/force in the upward direction as the outside edge is going upwards. Wheel_Layout.pdf

If the whole system was on scales then, when the wheels are imbalanced (with weights on) the scales would read less when the weights were on the outside moving up, and more when the weights were going down on the inside. Surely, then, when the whole unit spinning, (without the weights) it would read slightly less as the slight extra weight (relativistic) is always on the outside going up. Is it not the imbalanced weight that is moving the centre of mass. In my case, this would be constantly up. There is a doughnut shape made out of lots of wheels. The doughnut is spinning, but also each wheel is spinning so that the outside edge of each wheel is going up and the inside edge is going down. The extra mass is on the outside edge of each wheel which is going up. The spinning of the whole doughnut shape is to give the extra mass.