John Lowe

Bummer indeed. I'll leave you all alone for a bit now, until I have another brainwave.

Thank you all for explaining why this won't work, I think I get it now. Can I just describe a slightly different version of my other method and see if you can help me with that one. Imagine 2 cylindrical projectiles inside a linear accelerator (this is in space inside a space ship). We rotate the projectiles inside the accelerator in opposite directions. This rotation is to give them some relativistic mass. We accelerate the first one (while spinning) down the accelerator, followed by the second one. We give the second one slightly more speed so it catches up with the first one half way down the track. When they meet, they connect somehow and (via friction?) cancel each others rotation out (thus losing the relativistic mass). Then they are decelerated at the other end. The act of decelerating a lighter mass should give us a net velocity gain with no propellant used.

that sounds like a good point, let me ponder.

I thought Coriolis force was fictitious? I'm not sure what you mean by ".. that mass element is then 'pulled' back down to a lower speed.." The extra mass is just extra relativistic mass and is always on the outside. Each wheel has a fraction of relativistic mass due to its own rotation. This is equally spaced around the wheel. But also, each wheel has some extra relativistic mass due to the rotation of the carousel. It is this extra mass that is not equally spaced around the wheel. The outside edge of each wheel has more because it is travelling faster than the inside edge. Even though the wheel is spinning it is always the outside edge that has more "extra" mass.

If you stand near the center of a revolving carousel you are moving slower (same RPM less m/s) than if you stand on the outside edge. Therefore the outside edge of each wheel is travelling faster than the inside edge. I don't understand what you mean by "..... 'pushed' somehow to achieve the extra speed there."

On the "front view" all the wheels rotate in the direction of arrow 'A'. This means that the outside edge of each wheel goes up and the inside edge goes down, towards the center. Then on the "plan view", all the wheel are spun (they have a common cirular shaft through them all) in direction 'B'. The act of spinning all the wheels in direction 'B' is what gives the outside edge of each wheel more mass, as it has a faster velocity V1, than the inside edge, V2. This extra mass is always going up, because it is always on the part of the wheel that is going fastest (in direction 'B' not 'A') If it was a carousel and we remove the horses and replace them with wheels that are pointed and spinning towards the center then as the wheel turn and the carousel turn the lift will be upwards.

This sounds a bit circular and chicken and the egg. I understand F=dp/dt or F=ma, if there is no acceleration then no force. But you are saying there is no change in net p, so no force. I am saying that the fact that one side of the wheel has more momentum than the other side, this will cause a force. (this same force is felt on the axle of spinning, unbalanced wheel). This force will cause an acceleration.

The imbalanced wheel wants to spin around it's center of mass. When it can't because the axle is fixed, it causes a force on the axle, which will move around with the extra mass. In my system the force on the axle would always be up.

That's the whole point, trying to get around that and the conversation of momentum law. Trying to understand why it won't work instead of "you just can't coz it's the law"

It is very in depth for my level of expertise. That is why I am trying to break it down into simple points for people to answer, so I can understand easier.

If you spin a balanced wheel is space it will stay spinning around it's centre. If it is imbalanced, there is more mass on one side than the other, therefore, more momentum in one direction than the other. This will cause the wheel to oscillate, i.e. the axis will scribe a circle in space as the extra mass goes round with the wheel. The extra momentum in my system is always going up. So why won't my system have a force upwards?

Yes.

Not sure about a force diagram but my thinking is this:- If we don't spin the whole unit in direction 'B' and before we spin all the wheels we attach a weight to the outside edge of each wheel. We then spin all the wheels together and at the same speed so all the weights are going up on the outside and down on the inside out the same time. This whole unit would then be imbalanced and if we put it on some scales, I think it would read less when the weights are moving up and less when the weight are moving down. There would have to be forces because that's what we need to correct when we balance wheels. What my aim is to remove the weights and cause a permanent imbalance in the upward direction caused by the extra relativistic mass which would stay on the outside pointing up. Forces would be small, but scaleable and useful in space.

I have a drawing now which should help clarify. Shafts and stands are omitted for clarity. All the wheels spin in direction 'A'. All the wheels are attached to a circular shaft (not shown) and all the wheels rotate together in direction 'B' (they are spinning in direction 'A' at the same time). The outside edge of each wheel will have a linear velocity 'V1' which will be larger than the inside edge velocity 'V2'. Thus the outside edge of each wheel will gain slightly more relativistic mass than the inside edge. This will cause an imbalance/force in the upward direction as the outside edge is going upwards. Wheel_Layout.pdf

If the whole system was on scales then, when the wheels are imbalanced (with weights on) the scales would read less when the weights were on the outside moving up, and more when the weights were going down on the inside. Surely, then, when the whole unit spinning, (without the weights) it would read slightly less as the slight extra weight (relativistic) is always on the outside going up. Is it not the imbalanced weight that is moving the centre of mass. In my case, this would be constantly up. There is a doughnut shape made out of lots of wheels. The doughnut is spinning, but also each wheel is spinning so that the outside edge of each wheel is going up and the inside edge is going down. The extra mass is on the outside edge of each wheel which is going up. The spinning of the whole doughnut shape is to give the extra mass.

If the doughnut wobbles up and down when the wheels have an imbalanced weight on them, why does it not move upwards when the extra weight is always on the outside.

I agree, the speed is symmetrical, but the the weight on each wheel is imbalanced due to the extra mass on the outside edge, and this extra mass will cause the force. On wheels with a weight on them the doughnut will wobble up and down. When the wheels have no weight on them, and we spin the whole doughnut of wheels, the imbalance is due to the extra relativistic mass that appears on the outside edge, then there will be a net force upwards.

Apologies for my shortness, it was my first day and limited to 5 posts. Thanks for your help and I do appreciate all comments and help. I am struggling explaining and drawing exactly what I mean, let me try again. The drawing was the most simplified version of my idea where there are only 2 wheels 180 deg apart on a "T" stand. This easily could be expanded to 4 wheel at 90 deg apart. The more wheels you add, the more it starts to look like the doughnut I described. So then we spin each wheel so they are all going up on the outside and down on the inside. If we put a weight at the same place on each wheel so that each weight was going up on the outside at the same time and going down on the inside at the same time then the whole assembly would wobble up (when weights going up) and Down(when weights going down). Now if we remove the weights, spin the wheels, then spin the whole "doughnut". Now the outside edge of the doughnut is going faster than the inside edge and as such will gain (slightly) more relativistic mass than the inside edge and as such there will be a slight upward force (it will constantly "wobble" up). When the weights were on, the wobble followed the weights around, but now the extra weight is always on the outside, due to the extra relativistic mass. If stress is like a spring or potential energy, would this not cause more mass on the outside, not cancel it out?

I think that the wheels gain more mass on the outside edge than on the inside edge, because the outside edge has a faster linear speed than the inside edge (larger diameter, same revs) Many thanks for the link and info. I am reading and trying to understand the post in the link you sent but it is quite detailed, and will take time to sink in. I am not "unappreciative, obsessed or ignorant", and I think it is quite rude to say so on the basis of me not replying quick enough. Especially from a senior member.

System is symmetric, but both wheels give an upward thrust. When you have a wheel with an imbalance the force follows the weight around, causing an oscillation. In my system the imbalance is always on the outside edge of both (or all) wheels causing an upward thrust.

There is an imbalance in each wheel because it has extra weight on the outside edge. If you held one wheel in each out stretched hand and spun them with a weight on each of them, then you would feel the imbalance. Likewise, I suggest that if you held balanced wheels, spun them, them yourself rotated, the imbalance would be at the outside edge and you would feel an upward force.

Both wheels (or all in the doughnut version) are rotating and also spinning around a central point. As they are spinning around a central point the outside edge of each wheel will have slightly more relativistic mass, and this extra mass will cause an imbalance. But, unlike when we put an extra weight on the wheel and it oscillated, this mass is always on the outside edge of each wheel with them all pointing in the same direction, causing a force in that direction.

Is "Relativistic mass" real? Does a spinning top weigh more than a stationary one. The force stopping the spinning is at 90 deg to the axis so cant be resolved in the direction motion. Working on a diagram. The imbalance is only caused by the extra relativistic mass which is always always on the outside of each wheel. It is not the practicality that I'm worried about, just the theory. Even a small amount of thrust would be useful. Look at all the fuss that went into the EM drive. It is not the practicality that I'm worried about, just the theory. Even a small amount of thrust would be useful. Look at all the fuss that went into the EM drive. Here is a simplified version with only 2 wheels. Place a weight on each wheel at position A and spin them both in synchronisation. The scales will read less when the weights are at position A than when they are at position B. This is because the wheels are imbalanced. Now remove the weights and spin the wheels. Scales will read constant. Now if we the spin the whole assembly on the roundabout the wheel will always be heavier at point A because of a slight gain in mass than at point B and cause the scales to read less. Diagram A.pdf

I am trying to break the law of conservation of momentum, and design a mode of transport through space without using a propellant. I know most people will stop reading now and say it can't be done, but if somebody could at least explain what is wrong with my logic I would appreciate it. Propellant less space engines using relativistic mass. Method 1 – Shotgun The engine is basicaIIy accelerating two “cannon balls” down twin barrels and then stopping them before they reach the end of the “spaceship”. Before we fire them we spin them to a high speed so they gain a portion of relativistic mass, then we stop the spinning during the journey down the barrel, then we decelerate to zero the linear motion. The act of accelerating a heavier mass than we are decelerating will give is a net velocity gain. The method of "spinning" and the design of the "cannon ball" can be sorted after the theory has been proved. Method 2 – Doughnut The engine is a number of wheels arranged in a circle to look like a doughnut. Spin all the wheels the same direction, then spin the whole doughnut to a high speed. As the doughnut is spinning the outside edge of each wheel will have a faster speed than the inside edge that is at the centre of the doughnut. Thus the outside edge of each wheel will have slightly more relativistic mass gain than the inside edge and as the wheel are spinning this will cause an imbalance in each wheel causing a thrust in the direction of the outside edge tangential motion. An imbalanced wheel causes forces which follow the excess mass around the wheel. On this system the imbalance is always at the same place pointing in the same direction.