timharvey027

but surely this relates to the wave model also. Imagine the laser is fired from London to Paris and we consider the wave model. That is even worse?? An analogoy for showing the wave model is crap is this: Think of a perfect sphere, a pin point of light or a planet. This emits light. now there are two things to consider, it emits it as a wave or as as a stream of photons. So at the surface of the pin/planet the seperationion between the photons /lightwaves will be neglible say o. ten trilloin degrees, but as the waves, phototons journey in a straight line fron the sphere the degree seperating them from, each other will grow, meaninging that as you increase your hight form the pin / planet the degree between you and the neighbouring photon or wave increases, which will result in "holes" between you as your striaght line increases into the miles of space. Convesrsation may cure my inarticulate ability! Regards Tim Early flight must quit, but thanks for your really helpful information, hopefully can resume tomorrow. Stay Safe Regards Tim

I get that too, a photon can only react to one eys and stange's point that it would be determined by "chance" don't seem to carry the definitive logic here. I want you to consider everything taken to the n'th degree and you don't seem to be doing that, iwant you to consider what I propose as being achievableable and the resultsant out come. So, going back to the example of a laser being fired from London to Paris.......1. there is only a finite number (lots) of photons created by this event. 2. No extra photons are created during the journey. 3. (Most importantly) viewers who see the beam between london and paris are recieving photons to their retina that have been "scatterred" by dust,water or whatetever. So my questions remain ?? If there is an observer at every angle at every nano centimetre of the journey, how can that may photons be "scatterred" without detratcting from the light beam. What if ther was no observer? would the photons still form the same scatter pattern. If the scatter pattern didn't involve the light being scatterred in 306 degrees it would not be seen by some observers ?? if it did involve scattering to 360 degrees at evry nano cntimteremt point the photons would be dissappattended fron the lase light beam which doesn't happen. Help me ?? Regards Tim My first concern with light came through I think it was called hugyens theory of secondary wavelets and I knew as soon as i saw that, many years ago that the theory of light as a particle, wave and gravity are inexsricablley linked but our current ideas of them are incorrect

Hi Strange, That is my point, if light can't be infinitely divided how come an infinite number of people could see the laser beam firing between london and paris (thought wise, assuming you could get an infinite people in that space to view it) , they all must be recieving photons to the retina to view it. If there are ony a finite number of photons produced by the laser how could this work. And if the anwser is that only those that recieved photons would be able to see the beam, what determines who would recieve those photons in preference to another?? Help me here, is this thought provoking or am I just being thick?

Thanks Sting Junky for your advise re personal details, edited. Regards Tim

Again Thank you Strange and Gideon, for your informative answers, the clouds are slowly clearing. It would be great if I could have a brief chat in person. I think by takinng examples or thought experiments to extremes you can often determine why something is still not quite right with our understanding of light and gravity. Hope we can chat. Regards Tim Hi Stringjunky, I get that, so what happens when the finite amount of photons produced runs out to the infinite nuber of observers? regards Tim

Hi Ghideon, So lets assume the laser is fired between London and Paris at a hight of say half a mile above ground surface. Lets assume that there are observers at every nano centimetre at every angle along it's route including those behind the firing point and beyond the target point. Apart from the photnos cteated from the laser itself are you telling me that observers will be viewing additional photons created by the laser photons scattering from dust particles!! Would this be consistent with the conservation of energy etc. The point i'm trying to get accross here is that apart fromthe original laser beam of light how can an unprecendented number of observers see the beam if they are notrecieving photons from it, and if they are at any angle to it, behind it etc the number of photonsgivenof to hit observers retina must be infinite, otherwise some would not see the beam, which in practice just doesn't happen?? I do appreciate your patience in dealing with someone who has an enquiring but not qualified mind

Hi Ghideon, Thanks for your answer. I Think your missing a crucial point here. Lets suppose the laser is projected into space. An obsever on the ground must recieve photons from the beam into his retina to see it , right? So say 200 million viewers are looking up at this laser beam, the photons, must be travelling back to their retina in order for them to see it... now that just doesn't make sense..does it?? Thanks Strange, So what would determine who sees it and who does not?

Hi Swansont, So tell me, if photons scatter of of something e.g dust, do they scatter in 360 degrees. So when everyone on say Hong Kong sees the laser beam projected into the sky, each person..lets suppose there are observers at every angle at every nanometre will all see the laser beam. If we can work out the number of photons hwich is not infinite, what happens when that number of photons is reached, or "runs out" will observers simply not see the beam

Hi Swansont, What do you mean by observers not in line wiith the lasr will not see photons?? So when I see a laser beam projected into the sky in Hong Kong or at the Syndey fireworks display, I am not in line with it yet I see the laser beam....so surely I must be recieving photons on my retina from that beam ?? If I can see the laser beam, what am I seeing if not photons from it?? I really think this question is too difficult to answer as lots of people have looked at it but only you have been brave enough to offer an explanation. Thanks and many regards Tim

Consider this a laser beam fired between points A and B. Consider an infinite -1 observers, viewing the laser beam from all angles above below, sideways etc etc. Each observer receives photons onto their retina from the laser beam. So the light just doesn’t travel in a straight line but is seen by all observers at every angles. Does this mean that an infinite-1 number of photons travel in every direction to make the beam visible???????

Thanks John, For very big safe, substitute if for incerdibly thick streel box which would not expand or burst. The point of my question is, if water atoms are confined so they CANNOT expand surely they would not freeze, just slow down even at minus 200...what do you think?

If I have a very big waterproof safe and I filled it with water and locked it, then froze it to say minus 200 would the water freeze ? Do you need air to freeze water to ice?

Thanks for all your really informative answers to does light accelerate I have another more interesting question. For this consider the following crude analogy: Consider a perfectly spherical pin cushion about the size of a golf ball, it filled full of pins tightly packed together so much so that you can no longer see the pin cushion only the pins. Imagine this perfectly spherical pin cushion is suspended in the centre of a balloon , which itself is suspended inside a spherical hot air balloon, which is suspended is a sphere the size of the moon, which is suspended inside a sphere the size or earth , next the size of sun. Now extrapolate the pin lines outward until they touch the inner surface of each of the aforementioned. Because the do not expand as cone shaped but simply straight lines you end up with a very spikey pin cushion and as the pins get further away from the cushion the distance between the pins expands. In between the pins there is space with no pins. Now consider a light source about the size of the pin cushion, we can calculate the amount of light emitted right (yes). So if each of the photons/stream of photons/light waves leaves the perfect spherical surface as they travel outward they will become more distant from each other. Ahaa I hear you cry but you must take into account the fact the light will leave the sphere at a multitude of angles. I have considered this and still think you would need an infinite number of photons (streams, waves) leaving at an infinite number of angles if you were to end up with a wall of light a trillion miles away . Where am I going wrong?? Thanks

If I took a magnet into deep space say outside our solar system where would the north seeking pole point?? 2. If I chopped it in half (in space) would I still get two magnets? 3. Thought experiment: if I had a very microscopic bar made of just two iron atoms, on earth, and I magnetised it whilst it was lying west-east what would make one atoms north seeking? If that makes sense??

Prof Merrifield and Moriaty say it does, confused now.