MSC

Difficult, challenging, thrilling, daunting. I'm game! Yup, it's not even as cut and dry as political lines; religion, culture, community, family, hell even BDSM kind of throws a wrench into it... and then another one lol True, a free education in how to live like a medieval peasant women is not what anyone reasonable wants. 😕

True, next time I'll just lay it all out I guess, sometimes I prefer to just roll a ball to start a discussion instead of playing the entire game in the first move lol Damn... wish I had went to your highschool lol I don't have my copy handy, but I remember him talking about a scenario of a person jumping from a building and the event being witnessed by a physicist, a psychiatrist and a... might have been a surgeon, Dr? I can't quite recall, the gist was that logic is a tool, that in different experts will lead to different conclusions about what happened during an event. All of which can be true. The different accounts of logic, explaining a fuller context what happened in layers of detail that you can't get from one person. Objective relativism through context relativism. I wanna tie in Hume as well as Cohen. Now, Hume argued, that trying to reason with people, when people are primarily influenced by emotional sentiment, is the height of folly. People are convinced through sentiment, not reason. Accepting this about ourselves gives us an enormous amount of power. Learning how to think well is one thing, but Hume believed people also needed education on the emotions. Sometimes the reason we are able to get along with people we disagree with, is down to emotional correctness. So where the abortion issue is concerned... I guess my response is learn how to speak idiot to get some people on board with abortion being illegal, that ordinarily wouldn't, by using an emotional sentiment into it of getting a kind of win, and an ability to save face, deescalate.

Noted! Although I'm mentioning both, the title of the thread can only be so long. Now I know which way to frame it that makes it easier to convince someone like yourself, but the reducing the abortion aspect is rhetoric targeting conservatives... I keep forgetting there don't seem to be many of those here, or they just don't frequent the ethics section..... ohhhh. That would explain a lot. I understand your logic, but you need to understand mine, I don't put all my eggs into one basket. Why argue once framing it around one thing, when I can make multiple arguments with multiple elements in the frame? Side bar; have you ever read Cohens preface to logic?

Then is it in mathematics, where you start counting, grouping and labeling the nature of what the individual, constituent parts and their interactions, do together?

Well you may have an edge, more time than me applying logical skills learned from physics and mathematics... auld yin lol Sorry it's taken me so long to get to this. Had to think about it about longer than the others. I definitely agree with the idea of discovery being a huge element in the nature of our existence. Our, as in living beings, nice touch, biocentrism fist bump. Have you heard of non-linear causality?

I may do just that. I feel you. Easy to learn, not as easy to apply consistently. Later on you'll probably start finding it harder in certain subjects because you'll start encountering some of the really strong arguments for views you don't agree with. It happens to everyone who studies this stuff. It can be a touch traumatic in some ways I guess but think of it as deconstructing the self, and figuring out how you want to be built back up in a way where you're better able to express your perspectives and reason for being. That's not to say life hasn't already made you do that, what do I know? Lol all on a journey man I appreciate you taking the time to check it out too.

Well, I can't say I agree, one mans trash is another mans treasure. Let's agree to disagree. I'm not gonna get too focussed on the physics and mathematics here too much anyway. Did you get a chance to check out the crash course recommendation I gave you? Fair warning, a lot of it is funny af. You'll laugh. Comedic delivery is the best imo.

Ahhh got it, although comes across as kind of semantical. Either way in epistemology and ontology they are subjects worth discussing either way but thanks for clearing up the confusion.

Your point isn't getting any clearer to me. It's a bit of a does not compute thing for me tbh. How do you separate physics from existence or mathematics? They both exist. They are both things we need to learn in order to have a better understanding of our world. Each and every one of those DIKW types in that index, are all within the greater context of... well everything. Could you be a bit more descriptive about what you mean?

What question?

Why not?

Isn't it better to say physics is concerned with what happens to that which physically exists? Knowledge index sharing time. Universal knowledge ----------- Physical knowledge ----------- Chemical knowledge ----------- Biological knowledge ----------- Physiological knowledge ----------- Psychological knowledge ----------- Sociological Knowledge ----------- Moral knowledge ----------- Legal knowledge ----------- Cultural knowledge ----------- In-group/family knowledge ----------- Personal knowledge The formatting got a little fucked as I copy and pasted from my emails, but this is the rough draft index and it isn't finished. I want to incorporate the DIKW pyramid into it at some point too, and there needs to be theories of relationship between knowledge types. Each and every type is relevant to both the nature and context of our existence, collectively and individually. I want to correct this, but I'm not sure how. Lil help! Lol

I don't. 🤨 Really don't understand how anyone could read that in what I wrote. But I definitively never said anything about force, I've only specifically spoken about choice. Women's choices. For some people.

Agreed. I got effective sex education. Without getting into tmi, I applied the knowledge and had no teenage pregnancies and no health problems. I doubt I'd have been so lucky with abstinence only models. If abstinence is just one thing mentioned along with all other safety knowledge, that's just a fuller lesson to me. Fire safety works the same way; don't start fires if you don't need to, but if you're cooking, camping or spill water on an outlet, here is how to put out the fire. What you said about the push for abstinence only programs, and indeed politically enraged infringement within education more broadly, are really big problems. That's why I'm drawn to the diplomatic route of saying "Hey you couple of reasonable conservatives, independents and moderates, if I had a way of reducing abortion rates without making abortion illegal, will some of ya hear me out and not vote for the dark age nutbags during elections, if I'm right?" I just feel there is a dire need for a bit more creative imagination within political and moral discourse. The usual ideas just aren't cutting it anymore. The discussions need to evolve. They are stagnating. Lets talk about education, specifically womens access to primary, secondary and higher education across the world. People in countries where women have better access to education and better access to well paying jobs, tend to have less kids, but the quality of life of those children tends to be better off than poorer families, where women are less educated, and have more children. I mean, that isn't always the case, you have the exceptions of better educated women wanting more kids due to other influencing factors like just liking kids due to personality. Then less educated women wanting less kids for the opposite reasons, and people from all walks who just don't want kids at all. And I'm rambling. I've actually been waiting on a bus from Cincinnati to Chicago for over 12 hours. So I've had nothing better to do than to just... talk.

Ahhh yes but you see, while some people like to shine as bright as the gods, I'm quite different in that respect, I prefer to shine greater than the gods 🤣 Boom. Well, rarer is my best guess. I don't pretend to know what would happen to the abortion rates, if a few more ideals were realised. What is science without an experiment though? I mean that's all law and policy really is, experiments in ethics. It just sucks that they are very costly when they go wrong. Like really sucks. 😕

Thats my point of disagreement, although I do value that you get where some of the sentiment of mine is coming from, but the lack of good quality choices actually does bother me more than whether or not more or less abortions are happening, so long as I think people have gotten a fair shake, I did rawls veil of ignorance, and while life isn't fair, I just choose not to believe that it can't be made just a little bit fairer. I live in the USA now and have seen the poverty here, but experienced it first hand in being born in and growing up Scotland. I've heard about it across the world from people all over the world. I'm a hard cosmopolitan tbh. Suffering and coming to harm in America, africa, asia, wherever it's all the same to me, bad. I can be an overly sensitive, pretentious, grandiose, bleeding heart, angry asshole sometimes. I'm not unaware of this shit, I know how I sound to people... I guess I just don't care? Like I care if I hurt people and feel guilty later and have a healthy amount of shame. But I just don't really care what people think of me anymore nor do I even want to pay much attention to what people think my intentions are. I feel like I'm only a bleeding heart, because I feel like, humanities heart is bleeding, hemorrhaging even. This, talking about it, is one of the ways I cope. That's all. I don't want to get rid of contraception lol but updoot, that was funny af

You'll have to explain that one to me, went right over my head. Need to. Want doesn't even begin to become close to describing how much parents feel they need to be around their kids. I'm not sure why you're not getting everything it is I'm trying to say, but I'll think about how I can present it better. What I'm not saying; People need to have more babies, there should be less access to contraception, parents need less time with their kids. What I am saying; The improvement of the quality of life for lower income kids, from any place in the world, doesn't end at more contraception. It ends when the conditions for bringing children into the world are better, not so there are more or less, just so that people have more freedom to choose what it is they want to do. So women can choose a career and kids, or just a career and no kids, if that is what they want, so that dads and mothers stay in their kids lives and aren't forced to give them up because they couldn't afford the basics or because financial stressed tore apart a relationship or marriage. These aren't problems you can just throw condoms at.

Unless it's possible to stretch my question to the contraception subject; what if there are people using contraception, that otherwise would choose not to, if having a child wasn't riskier to health,( @StringJunkyinfant and maternal mortality rates in third world countries is a prime example there, or the same rates for non-whites here in America) career, finances and social relationships? I suppose my question, is more about just helping people be freer to make the choices they want to make based on their own wants and desires, and less dictated by their external environment, so long as it's not hurting anybody. On a more personal note; I do want to have these discussions, with people I deem to be intelligent and thoughtful enough to provide good feedback and to challenge me, even if it does aggravate me sometimes, that's my issue. So the fact that I keep coming back here, after multiple yearly bans, me lashing out at feeling rejected by this community (just in my head taking shit too personal I guess), should convey to people here the respect and admiration I have for the people here... even Inow, who I enjoy reading when i just observe and do not engage. I don't come back to projects or people I don't care about. I try my hardest to remember there are people behind the screen. Sometimes I fail. I'm not trying to brown nose or whatever, I just really don't even want a filter at this point, so long as I feel like I can just keep having fun with the discussions too. I consider all this discussion valuable dialogical research that I will definitely publish one day. Not to try to overhaul, just to sow seeds of whatever weird af ideas come out of mine or others heads that are gonna be useful to future peoples, and contribute something. None of it is even original when you think about it, just people endlessly paraphrasing and trying to explain what some old dead dude said before language had evolved enough for people to understand wtf he was trying to say (I got you big W, much love!). Anyone here heard of G.E. Moore or know anything about his moral philosophy?

See it is this last part that I don't see much of. I'm not suggesting every egg needs to be saved, I just want women to have better quality choices. Some women I've spoken to, have cited this lack of support as being a primary factor in their decision to seek an abortion and have confessed to feeling guilty about it, even though I don't believe they have any reason to feel guilty for practicing bodily autonomy. Not all women are the same, not all women seek abortions because they want them, but because the quality of their other choices is so low. You or I can start a thread about poverty in Africa and other less affluent places, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play favourites over which issues I do and do not speak about. There are kids in poverty everywhere and this demarcation between 1st, 2nd and 3rd world is pretty unfair to kids everywhere, going through adverse experiences. Why should any child be thought of as lesser than? Why can't I want conditions to be improving on every continent and be multifaceted in my approach if that is what I choose to do? Abortion today, starvation tomorrow, gun crime the next day etc. For example; another contributing factor in why (b)Some(/b) women, seek abortions, is lack of faith in a foster and adoption system that leads to children, everywhere, being abused by people they are supposed to be able to trust. We ought not to paint women as being all singularly motivated in why they seek an abortion. I mean, some people don't even want to have kids for the same reasons, so you'd think the inverse is true also. Of which, I am not, bring on the male pill as far as I'm concerned. Gonna have to be honest, if this is all just going to revolve around talk of contraception, I am gonna get pretty bored. But if this discussion isn't grabbing peoples attention, that's fine too. Hey whoa now easy there dude... I am not for less sex lmao I'm talking about people having less abortions, that's not the same as less sex. Maybe it would help if I explained that I want to come up with convincing arguments to reasonable conservatives to back access to abortion by making them back more support for families.... but preaching to the choir here I guess lol but there, that's my reason for starting these discussions and just my general... obsession with discussing this stuff. Sue me.

Hopefully... Whisky.

Yup! That's one I didn't think of but was impacted by personally. Doc put my ex on birth control after we had our daughter, messed with her hormones, milk dried up. They never told us that would happen. I mean formula is fine but it definitely got to my ex as she was only able to breastfeed for a short time and not very much either. That is a big one; what about family and community social policies that introduce more support systems, reduced childcare costs and tackle the fixable reasons that contribute to why some women choose to get abortion in the first place?

I'm talking motivations for instigation of the war on drugs, the effects and long term consequences of the war on drugs, and what values, virtues and principles guide people into supporting it to this day? How can it end and what would happen if it did end?

What i mean by this question; What positively beneficial policies could be enacted to organically lower abortion rates, by improving the quality of womens choices, without making abortions illegal or unjustifiably restricted? What sort of changes to social attitudes would need to happen in order for policies like these to be popular?

Three resources; The Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy, available online. The Oxford and Cambridge Philosophical dictionaries. Also online I believe. If you happen to live in Boston, the Boston public library has them and I imagine most libraries can get a hold of them anyway... It's also one of my favourite buildings and is just a really awesome place. Just one thing to keep in mind, it has kind of an old layout. The psychology section is actually a subsection within the philosophy section, an organizational relic of a time when psychology was still just a branch of philosophy and had not yet become a fully fledged scientific inquiry. But yeah, stay away from strict singular definitions, language is fluid, check out Wittgenstein and good luck. Enjoy!

This is true, although ignoring them might have a different effect, making this mf thinking it's safe to invite all their creepy alt-right chatroom friends here to grief the place. Kicking them out asap keeps reinforcing the message, when they go to their echo chambers to bitch, that the views won't be tolerated. I mean don't get me wrong; if there was the venue, the time, and the patience for it, somebody, but not me, should give unbrainwashing these people a try. Preferably someone that knows them that gives a shit. These people tire me though. I got enough problems.