MSC

True, but this situation has been years in the making, and could last for longer. Current expectations from military strategists are claiming they see this war lasting years. The task isn't as large as you would think either. Europe already produces 25% of its energy use per year from renewable. 40% of its energy requirements were met by Russian fossil fuels. If I were to use the energy figures from last year as an example, had this plan been initiated when Crimea was annexed, it is entirely possible that by last year, the 1000+Tw of Europe's energy requirements met by Russia, could have already been exceeded by renewables without military logistical expertise and manpower contributing toward an expedited installation. Now, don't be too critical of this idea. Pitching a military energy solution to the Russian problem is killing two birds with one stone. 😆 Would be typical of humans to do wouldn't it? Create renewable energy infrastructure to save us from climate change? Nope. Create renewable energy infrastructure to mess with the Russians as part of a war effort? Where do I sign up? Says every true American patriot 😆 I think it's kind of a near perfect idea. The kind I don't have very often. It's one of those things you can do as a military option that cannot be used as any kind of pretext for direct military retaliation. There is nothing in the NATO-Russia treaties which forbids either from making upgrades to their own infrastructure as a military move. I wouldn't be too hard on the Hungarian people. With state controlled media, corrupt policing and social media manipulation, it was a losing battle. My best friends wife is Hungarian, but she has left the country now.

In an effort to try and move this discussion on, I want to pose a question. Should NATO make use of its military resources to co-ordinate the accelerated building of a renewable energy infrastructure in NATO members territories, in order to effectively and completely end any leveraging power Russian Oil has in Europe?

Nobody here has stated that they supported the war in Iraq. Nobody here has stated they support the idea of war crimes when committed by the USA. Somebody else's potential war crimes, do NOT justify Russias current war crimes. The ACTUAL topic of discussion. You are tilting at windmills. It's just getting incredibly boring at this point. You've added little of value to this discussion and are just accusing us of believing or saying things that nobody has said. Did your mother never tell you that two wrongs do not make a right? Ukraine wasn't the one at war with Iraq. Ukrainian civilians certainly were never at war with Iraq. How is Iraq, the Cuban missile crisis or an imaginary war with Mexico in any way shape or form, relevant or related to this discussion?

Except that isn't what is happening, therefore the wild speculation is irrelevant. You literally just copied a few of the words used... do you actually believe this makes you sound intelligent? Agreed. +1 at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they work for Russian state media. Russia commits war crimes, then all of a sudden some random apologist appears in places where people are having informed discussions about it. State sponsored trolling doesn't seem too far-fetched to be a really possibility here imo.

Where's yours?!

Fair enough. I get why the staff did that. I just wish mistermack would use the opportunity to have their own thread to at least be coherent. I mean, the "poor get everything handed to them"? Then why are they still poor? Then there is the connection between being poor and from another country? Finding it hard to keep up and annoyed that Mistermack is ignoring large swathes of our responses. I mean, if I take a few news stories of British or American citizens committing heinous crimes, by mistermacks logic do I get to claim that they are all criminals and that the one or two news stories I grabbed are incontrovertible evidence of this? Hell no! Sometimes I have to say, I almost prefer it when a bigot is more direct. That is a much more straightforward situation to handle. I can just tell them to fuck off and/or go out and spend a year in a community where their target demographic is in the majority before speaking again. I used to live in a highly segregated area (segregated by redlining/greenling history, not policy) called North Lawndale in Chicago. It's a majority black area. It is crime ridden and run by gangs. The majority of the people there, are NOT in gangs. The majority of the people there HATE gangs. The majority of the people there are LAW ABIDING. Two of my closest friends from back home in the UK, are African. When I was homeless they took me in where my family had abandoned me. So not only do I have an experience of immigrants in my home country that treated me amazingly; I have an experience of being an immigrant in another country among people who had justifiable reasons for being terrified of me, yet welcomed me with open arms. I'm saying all this because I admittedly feel kind of worked up and emotional. Had a horrible fucking dream last night and waking up to this has upset me, no doubt about that. @mistermackAll I want you to do, is ask yourself why you are allowing fear and hatred to colour your views of people and why you think it is appropriate to blame Ukrainians for Russia invading them and why you think that countries that choose to make use of the NATO open door policy are somehow in the wrong and deserve to be attacked by Russia for it? I think you should apologize for misunderstandings caused by you.

Dude wtf is your agenda? I've asked you wtf this hijack is even for and so far it just seems to be a soapbox for you to rail against poor people and immigrants. Your interpretation of statistics is very telling of an extremely bigoted mindset. You can't give any of us a clear answer as to what this thread is about, so I don't see why we should engage with you anymore.

I get it, now that you've explained a little. Unfortunately high brow comedy is very hard to pull off in this venue. Yes the people here are more likely to get the joke, but only if you had a microphone and were on a stage in the right atmosphere. Take it from me, I come from the comedy capital of the world. Philosophy and phenomenology of comedy and humour are favorites of mine. So I admire your attempt. 100%. Jokes around discussions involving war crimes, are not advisable. Tensions are high. Read the room. Agreed. NATO expansion doesn't account for the agency of other countries to want that themselves based on what they have seen of the member countries. WION has a decent bias rating. Usually factual. However in terms of freedom of the press, out of 180 countries, it ranks at 140 on a scale of higher being less free and lower being more free. Their policy on international news is to produce it factual and give information on both sides views. However this is also the product of Indian foreign policy in regards to Russia and NATO is to give the impression of neutrality so as not to piss off Russia or NATO or piss them both off equally as a worst case scenario. Its editorials do tend to lean to the right, and it sometimes has problems sourcing or citing clearly. To be clear, the opening messages and sentiment, clearly framed that what Russia is doing with the Ukraine, is unjustifiable, intolerable and there is a solid case against them.

Then it's a poor execution of irony. Her view is hardly balanced when even at the very start, she states there are solid claims against Russia and that their invasion of the Ukriane should not be tolerated. The rest she states as a reminder to consider and review the history before assigning 100% blame. I haven't seen anyone here disagree with the notion that NATO played its part in escalating tensions. So stop accusing all of having listened to propaganda. You don't know what news sources I use so don't assume to know.

What is this thread about exactly? What is it you want us to discuss here? Is it class or something else involving Russia and Nato which could still be shared within the main thread? Why the hijack basically?

Tbh I think I need to change the more recent socioeconomic class thread to be a little less specific. What makes you believe this? This is quite hyperbolic. Always the poor? The poor are quantifiably more often on the short end of the stick by virtue of population density alone. The richest people in the world could probably all fit into a decent sized theater or sports venue while the poor of the world living in one country would be overcrowded. High level tax, financial and business crimes are more likely to be committed by the people that have the assets to engage in them. It is one law for everybody, but there are crimes which certain demographics are more likely to commit. There are some crimes you can literally only commit if you have a lot of money or are in a position of authority like law enforcement, trust fund managers, government, military, law, ceo etc etc.

Economic warfare in retaliation to documentable war crimes is a strategy with far fewer casualties of war than military action. This isn't Caesar killing a rich Roman and taking their money, this is more like catching Walter white by targeting his money.

He probably fears both, but the latter more, so you're mostly correct. Although since the state started trying to crack down on foreign and independent news sources, downloads of VPNs in Russia have increased dramatically and Russians living outside of Russia are attempting to keep another information back channel with friends and relatives back home. As it stands; Russian resistance to Putins Regime is something it is difficult for us outside of Russia to get reliable information about, since the state will want to not only crush said resistance, but pretend like it doesn't exist as well. Outside of Russia we have heard about protests and mass arrests, but what are we not hearing about? How many figures in authority have spoken out and disappeared? Have their been violent protests? Are their any regional governments who are at odds with the Kremlin over this? Etc. There is probably a lot more going on than it is possible for us to hear about at this moment in time. They are attempting to rebuild the iron curtain. Putin, as a dictator, will be actively setting into motion the implementation of further isolating Russians from the rest of the world. Putin is already starting to mistrust the military and his advisors, while his growing paranoia will present and express itself far differently to say someone like Donald Trump, it is still growing paranoia. It's kind of like a bad guy paranoia feedback loop. You do some fucked up shit, you get more paranoid about being held accountable for that fucked up shit, so you do some more fucked up shit to try to avoid accountability but then just end up even more paranoid and the process repeats itself over and over until a breaking point is reached and you've done so much fucked up shit to everyone that you can no longer trust that a single person won't want some form of revenge or satisfaction from you. Oooooh. Attacking the credibility of members of the military... dumb move. That will come back to bite them in the ass I bet. Not a good comparison. Economic sanctions and confiscation of goods and property are completely different from killing these people. I support the former, not the latter. My support of the former does not suggest or imply that I would support the latter.

He does fear the Russian people holding him accountable. Most of what he does, the cries of "fake news" from "western media", are less for convincing the international community, and more for convincing Russians within Russia. It's a pity that at 69 he looks so healthy. I'm currently holding faith in the fact that nobody is out of reach of the tragedies of nature... if either the Russian people or a health problem could just make him disappear or hand him over to the ICC that would be great. Another Dicktator bites the dust. (I MISPELLED NOTHING! 😆)

Ohhh... so it's more like a highlander thing than a cult then? There can be only one... to which all the chocolate belongs! Nah, can't do that. My wife would kill us both.

I thought he was already sniffing up all of Putins farts as they came? We are already feeling some of the impact now. Gas prices have shot up where we are and probably will some more. We are still comparatively better off than Russia and especially the Ukraine. I'm willing to bare the cost, if Russians feel it tenfold and it gives more light to Ukraine at the end of the tunnel. I'd pay 1000% more if I knew it would save and spare Ukrainians from their current waking nightmare. Especially their children. As a parent; I can't even imagine what people are going through there. That alone scares me. It's Ukraine today, but where tomorrow? The Berlin wall keeps moving. How long before Putin decides to try his luck at pushing another front? His troops are already doing war games now on the islands of North Japan, engaging in maneuvers training in beach defense. One thing I also fear, is what China may be planning. If I was president Xi, at least a small part of me would be wondering whether or not making moves on Taiwan, could be done with less media attention if it runs concurrently with Putins invasion of Ukraine? Btw I've had a few drinks tonight, so I apologize if I sound more dramatic than usual 😆

Ahhh yes, the whole "it's obvious" spiel. Usually a lame attempt to try to make someone feel stupid for daring to disagree with or challenge someone's claims.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-europe-evacuations-665fd06b92852547d7b27627b99509a6?dc_data=2260831_samsung-carnival-us&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=taboola_news&ui=8594a598-1013-4c9c-b601-dd642e5d9b5a-tuct943396f If this turns out to be true, then Russia has a lot to answer for. This is just cruel and barbaric at this point. How exactly is this justified? Ukraine won't remain neutral so you kill, torture and rape them in their home? If anybody says something along the lines of "Oh well they should have surrendered early then this would not have happened." I sincerely hope you get banned. I've no patience for victim blaming bs. It almost feels as if Putin is actively trying to provoke NATO into action so he can turn it around and claim he's actually being victimized by the west.

Putin is no Pussy cat and he certainly is not imaginary. I'm finding it very difficult to take you at all seriously. You don't really seem to have the slightest idea as to what you're talking about and I'm not the only one who has picked up on that. Thank you for sharing your opinions on this matter. They tell me everything I need to know about you. I don't think we have anything more to discuss. I don't care for your ifs and maybes in regards to Hitler and Churchill and I think your suggestion of capitulation and submission to Putin, after the deaths of innocent children at the hands of the Russian Army, hint at the complete lack of a spine and complete disrespect to victims of war crimes. Ahhh now I see. Thank you. Although the Good, The Bad and the Ugly is okay. I enjoyed it 😆 I don't know, Churchill was sincere enough for me in wartime. Hitlers speeches were very sincere, it doesn't make them good speeches though and being sincere about wanting to exterminate jews certainly doesn't win you any awards with me... except maybe an award for being the world's biggest shit.

Probably... to both questions. I'm unfamiliar with the phrase "all front" in this context. Could you expand on what you mean exactly?

He was a politician. So of course he was a lying windbag. That's not news. He was still right about Hitler. Take my head out of the tigers mouth of course. I'm certainly not going to speak to it.

- Winston Churchill (Fictitious line from the movie Darkest hour) To be clear, he never said this exactly. However I find the phrase at least to be meaningful in this situation. What he apparently did say, was that you cannot reason with cynical immorality or from a position of weakness.

Agreed. Something we can both agree on. +1 On the slightly better news, reports are coming in that the Russian Army has formally given back control of the Chernobyl facilities to Ukraine and the troops that were stationed there and nearby are heading back to Belarus.... wonder how many of them need treatment for radiation poisoning? These are early stage reports coming from the Ukrainian government and the USA so there is a small chance this may not be the case or it may be a Russian ruse. That being said; Removing Putin would leave a power vacuum, dangerous for its own reasons but at this point the devil we know is still the devil.

Ahhh good. There is the bush I was beating around. Literally for all we know, some of the slaves they owned were clarences ancestors.... although from what I've heard of Jefferson, he could be too. Think key and peele did a sketch about it too. Personally, I sometimes just wonder whether or not Clarence Thomas uses judicial philosophical views held in bad faith as a bad faith smoke screen for blatant corruption. I mean the man can't even write a book without it becoming a conservative best seller. The scary thing to me; is that Thomas has had such an Influence on the court, that his methods of originalist interpretation are now being adopted by the other conservative justices and judges on other courts. A lot of his past students and mentees are a stones through away from an SC nomination themselves. Kavanaugh also utilizes a lot of it too. There is little doubt in my mind that unless judicial reform takes place, we'll be dealing with Thomas like justices and verdicts for quite awhile. That said, the continuation of more of that, is also likely to bring on louder calls for reform and further erosion of public faith and trust in SCOTUS.

I can't help but wonder how the founding fathers would react to Thomas being on the Supreme Court at all. I've got a funny feeling that they would have nothing progressive to say about it whatsoever. I sincerely hope the irony of that is not lost on Thomas. If he were a true originalist, he'd never have sought the nomination in the first place. I believe the court needs a diverse set of voices, but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers had only old white men in mind for a Supreme Court justice seat when drafting the original constitution.