SteveKlinko

Everything you say about Neural Activation and Patterns is the usual Neuro Physiological description of what happens in the Brain. Do you deny the existence of the Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone, or of Redness, or of the Salty Taste? You might not have Conscious Sensory Experiences. You might actually be a living example of a P-Zombie from Philosophy.

At least you seem to understand what a Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone is. You seem to understand that this is not Explained by the Link that iNow posted. I don't make any claims about having Explanations for the Experience of the Standard A Tone or how we See. But the Visual Light Experience that I describe is also not an Explanation and is not intended to be an Explanation. It is merely an Observation of how things are. It is simply a fact that: The Visual Light Experience hovers and is embedded in the front of our Faces. What we need is an Explanation for How that Visual Light Experience actually happens.

The link is elementary school physiology of the ear and hearing. It says nothing about where the Sound Experience that you have in your Mind comes from. I can see you really do not understand the issue. Your link only describes the Neural Correlates of Conscious Experience. It actually makes no attempt to Explain the Conscious Experience itself, which comes after all the Ear Mechanics and then after the Neural Activity. You should think Directly and more Deeply about the Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone itself.

I am slow and methodical. So indulge Me and help Me understand. I apologize if you feel like you are repeating something, but what is your basic Explanation for how Neural Activity in the Brain becomes the Standard A Tone that I experience?

So in your mind it looks like all you have to do is say the word "Practice" and you have explained how you hear the Standard A Tone. Not very Scientific or even Logical.

What does then?

How does Neural Plasticity produce the Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone? What gives you the confidence that something like Redness or the Standard A Tone can be explained by Neural Activity. But I guess said it will be explained by Science. So you are Implying that there really is something more than Neural Activity needed to Explain the Experience of Redness or the Standard A Tone and Science will find it. Bye.

Conscious Experience Is A Type Of Data Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. From a Systems Engineering point of view it is clear that the Conscious Visual experience is a further Processing stage that comes after the Neural Activity. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing. To implement all the functionality of the Conscious Visual experience with only Neural Activity would probably require a Brain as big as a refrigerator. Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience. It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze. The Conscious Mind concept, which will be developed in the Inter Mind paper, can be viewed as a kind of Conscious Processor that takes the Conscious Light, Sound, Smell, Taste, and Touch Experiences as Input Data to help it survive in the world. This is a very strange kind of Processing (although actually very familiar) and it is very different from the Processing that Computers can do. The Processing that the Conscious Mind does is also very different than the Neural Processing that the Brain does. Let's talk about the Color Red. In the Physical World we know that Red Light is an oscillating Electromagnetic phenomenon with a particular wavelength associated with it. In the Brain Red is the coordinated Firing of groups of specific Neurons. In the Conscious Mind Red is an Experience. In Computers Red is usually represented as the hex number 00FF0000 stored in a memory location. Electromagnetic Phenomena, Firing Neurons, the Red Experience, and the Number 00FF0000 are completely different kinds of Data. It was a non answer plus it was not even correct. You must be talking about some kind of development process that all areas of the Brain undergo as they develop. But right now in the present moment after all the practice is done, there must be some process going on in the Neurons that is involved in the Experience of something like the Standard A Tone. What is that process?

The purpose of this thread is to point out that Consciousness is not Explained by any theory of Science. Nobody knows how Consciousness works or what Consciousness is. Maybe I'm wrong but aren't you one of the people that thinks that Consciousness is all already Explained by Science? That's the best non answer I have ever heard.

Most people do think they See the actual dog . That would be a Level #1 (Naïve Realism) understanding of how we See. At the Higher Levels we realize that we don't See the actual dog in the way we thought we did. No semantics here. I'll take your Liver or Kidney comment at an attempt at grade school humor. Yes but the issue is how does the Brain interpret Auditory signals as Sound?

Conscious Experience Is A Type Of Data Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. From a Systems Engineering point of view it is clear that the Conscious Visual experience is a further Processing stage that comes after the Neural Activity. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing. To implement all the functionality of the Conscious Visual experience with only Neural Activity would probably require a Brain as big as a refrigerator. Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience. It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze. The Conscious Mind concept, which will be developed in the Inter Mind paper, can be viewed as a kind of Conscious Processor that takes the Conscious Light, Sound, Smell, Taste, and Touch Experiences as Input Data to help it survive in the world. This is a very strange kind of Processing (although actually very familiar) and it is very different from the Processing that Computers can do. The Processing that the Conscious Mind does is also very different than the Neural Processing that the Brain does. Let's talk about the Color Red. In the Physical World we know that Red Light is an oscillating Electromagnetic phenomenon with a particular wavelength associated with it. In the Brain Red is the coordinated Firing of groups of specific Neurons. In the Conscious Mind Red is an Experience. In Computers Red is usually represented as the hex number 00FF0000 stored in a memory location. Electromagnetic Phenomena, Firing Neurons, the Red Experience, and the Number 00FF0000 are completely different kinds of Data.

We Do Not See Objects We Detect Objects The Big Bang happens and a new Universe is created. This Universe consists of Matter, Energy, and Space. After billions of years of complicated interactions and processes the Matter, Energy, and Space produce a planet with Conscious Life Forms (CLFs). In the course of their evolution the CLFs will need to See each other in order to live and interact with each other. But what does it really mean to See? A CLF is first of all a Physical Thing. There is no magic power that just lets a CLF See another CLF. A CLF can only Detect another CLF through some sensing mechanism which must be made out of Physical material and which uses Physical processes. There never is any kind of Seeing in the sense that we think we understand it. There is always only Detection. So a CLF might understand that it does not ever really See another CLF, but it will still insist that it Sees the reflected Light. The CLF would be mistaken if it thinks it Sees even the reflected Light. All it can do is Detect the reflected Light. Its sensing mechanism can only produce Physical reactions, like Neural Activity, that are correlated with the reflected Light. If the reflected Light is Red the sensing mechanism will fire Neurons that only fire for Red inputs. The CLF might be able to sense that the Red Neurons are firing. So every time these Neurons fire it can report that it is seeing Red. This CLF is only sensing particular Neurons firing and is not experiencing Red like we do. A CLF like us Sees Red as a Conscious experience and is not aware of any Neural Activity. This Conscious Red Experience (the Experience of Redness) is how we Detect Red Light from the external Physical World. Unfortunately the experience of Redness, at least for now, can not be found in the Brain or explained by Brain Activity. Further investigation shows the Experience of Redness cannot be found in any kind of Matter, Energy, or Space so we must conclude that it is something different than any of these things. Redness is in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known and existent Scientific Category of Phenomena. It is hoped that Science will be able to better understand Conscious Phenomena someday and that a whole new branch of Science will be created that is dedicated to the study of Conscious Phenomena. Let us now qualify the Space we know and call it Physical Space and then introduce a new Conscious Space as the place where our Conscious experiences like Redness occur. Conscious Space might eventually be found to be a component of ordinary Physical Space, but until Science figures out how to deal with Consciousness we should think about Conscious Space as simply a Tool that allows Conscious Phenomena to have a place to exist for the sake of discussion. Conscious Space might seem like a strange thing right now but someday it could be an integral part of our Scientific understanding. The Conscious Space concept will be developed throughout the Inter Mind paper and in the following topics. Since we have proposed this Conscious Space it is only natural to wonder if there is a corresponding Conscious Matter and a Conscious Energy. Maybe Red is a type of Conscious Matter, and maybe Volition is a type of Conscious Energy. But these analogies are just naive speculations because whatever Conscious Space might be, it is probably not going to be like any kind of Physical Space. It is instructive to start talking about the perception of Light by concentrating on a particular type of Light, namely Red Light, as in the above paragraphs. But it should be understood that the two dimensional Conscious Visual Scene that we experience is made out of all the possible Colors of Light depending on what we are looking at. So in the following sections when I use the term Light I am referring to that Conscious Visual Scene with all the Colors. I have found that some people try to imagine that someone is waving a flashlight in front of them when I talk about seeing Light, or especially later in the arguments section when I talk about Dream Light. But everything you see in any particular area of the Conscious Visual Scene is some Color of Light. Of course Black is the absence of any Light in an area of the Scene. Although Black is the absence of any Light it is still a Conscious Experience and is technically an actual Conscious Color.

I propose this question to people that think there is no problem with Consciousness. Some of the people that have been replying to the OP are saying that there is no problem with Consciousness. They think that Science has already got it all figured out and if you don't agree with them then it is because you have not worked hard enough to understand the Science of Consciousness. I don't know what the answer is. This is the Hard Problem of Consciousness and there is a huge Explanatory Gap between 1 and 2 that has not been answered by Science.

You need to take the process of Seeing, something like the Color Red, out to it's furthest stage of processing which is the Experience of the Redness of the Red. There is no further studying that you can do that can explain the Conscious Experience of the Redness. You are completely missing the most important aspect of Seeing. But you say there is no Consciousness aspect involved here. Ironically, the Consciousness aspect is the most important part and is the final stage of the Processing chain for the Human Visual system. What is the best answer for how the Neural Activity produces Conscious Experience. Let's use the Perception or Experience of the Color Red as an example. Given: 1) Neural Activity for Red happens. 2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens. How does 1 produce 2? In other words what would you put in between 1 and 2? Let me understand your understanding. Do you believe that we directly Experience the Physical Electromagnetic Light when we are Seeing?

That basically insulting reply shows I'm starting to hit a nerve (no pun intended). What in Science Explains the Experience of Redness, or the Experience of the Standard A Tone, or the Experience of the Salty Taste, or the Experience of the Smell of Bleach, or the Feel of a rough surface? You can talk about Neural Activity all you want but Neural Activity cannot Explain these Sensory Experiences. You must take a Deeper look at your own Conscious Sensory Experiences.

You have accused me of not studying something that I need to know. What should I have studied?

The problem is in the statement: "Your brain processes that signal as a color". The statement is of course true but what do you mean when you say it. What is the Brain doing? You can't just say the Brain does this without an Explanation of how the Brain does this. That Explanation is the Hard Problem of Consciousness. When you say that statement, a huge Explanatory Gap arises. What is the Processing that the Brain does?

I tried studying harder and harder but the Explanatory Gap just became wider and wider until I just had to admit to myself that there was something missing in the current understanding of the Visual Experience. You must still be at Level #3 for understanding the Human Visual Experience. You are probably also a Physicalist, in that you believe you can merely say things like the Neuron Fired or the Photoreceptor was stimulated, and that explains the Conscious Experience that you have in your Mind. Maybe you even deny that there is Conscious Experience. The only thing I can suggest is that rather than studying harder you need to Think Deeper about the Conscious Visual Experience itself.

My question is not about Photoreceptors and Neuro Science. I have spent many years studying that. When you rub your eyes you can see Light. There is nothing in the study of Eye Physiology or Neuro Science that can explain what that Light is and how it is produced. It is obviously some sort of Conscious Mind Phenomenon that has no explanation. It is David Chalmer's Hard Problem of Consciousness. There is nothing embedded in front of your face that you can touch. It is a Conscious Mind Phenomenon.

How does the Brain/Mind perceive an Electrical Signal as Light? There is a huge Explanatory Gap in a statement like this. All three of these things are something very special. There is a huge Explanatory Gap in a statement like "The Brain just interprets stimuli". So how do you Explain that beautiful high definition Visual Experience that is always there embedded in the front of your face?

So how do our Brains process the input to the Colors that we see? The Colors that we See are generated inside the Brain/Mind. Since these Colors are inside the Brain they are not Physical Light but they are the result of some sort of Brain/Mind process. These internal Colors are surrogates for the Physical Light Colors. I call the External Light Colors the Physical Light because it is part of what Physics can deal with. I call the Internal Colors the Conscious Light because it is what the Conscious Mind ultimately experiences. Let's talk about the Color Red. The Red Physical Light has a Property of Wavelength, and the Red Conscious Light has a Property of Redness. The Red Physical Light has no Property of Redness and the Red Conscious Light has no Property of Wavelength. You have never Seen Physical Light , you have only ever seen your own Conscious Light. If you rub your Eyes and see flashes of Light, that is pure Conscious Light with no corresponding Physical Light. The distinction between Physical Light and Conscious Light is the most important concept for the realization of Level 4 in the OP.

Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience 1) Naive Realism Level: When we were young and Naive we looked out at the World and assumed that the Visual Experience that we were Seeing was what the External World actually looked like. We did not think Deeper about what this Visual Experience actually could be. It was so simple then, we just looked out into the World and thought we Saw the World as it was. As we examined our Visual Experiences we could See that the different Objects out there had different Colors. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the things that we were Looking at. At this Level we thought our Visual Experience was painted with all the different Colors of all the Objects that are out there. 2) Physical Light Level: Most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Naive Realist Level, but we have Learned, Matured, and began Thinking and Questioning things. We took some Science courses and found out that we do not directly See Objects in the World but rather we See the reflected Light from these Objects. This was a fantastic new Realization. Now when we observed our Visual Experience we could understand that we were merely Seeing reflected Light from Objects in the External World. We realized that our Visual Experience was now painted with all the possible Physical Light (Electromagnetic) Wavelengths that our Eye could Detect. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the actual Physical Light that was hitting the Retina. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the Electromagnetic Physical Light that we were Looking at. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Objects anymore. 3) Neural Light Level: Even though we knew it was the Physical Light, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Physical Light Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Physical Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking and Questioning things even more than ever. We took some courses in Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology which made us realize that we don't directly See the Physical Light that seemed to make up our Visual Experience. We found out that the Visual experience that we See requires Neural Activity. This was again a fantastic new Realization. We were Seeing the result of Neurons Firing. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the effect of our own internal Neurons Firing. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Physical Light anymore. Our Visual Experience was still painted with all the Colors that we have always Seen but we now knew that these Colors were generated Internally by our Brains and we understood that all these Colors were never something that was External. The Colors became Properties of Neural Activity. The Light was now understood to be something Inside of us. 4) Conscious Light Level: When we were at the Naive Realist Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the External World looked like. When we were at the Physical Light Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the Physical Light looked like. But when we attained the Neural Light Level there was not that same feeling of it making Sense. In fact, it made no Sense that the Neural Activity produced the beautiful panoramic Color Visual Experience that we all have. Where, after all, were all those Colors coming from inside the Neurons? How could Neurons Firing have a Property of Color? There was a problem here because we could not find any courses to take that would answer this latest question. Science had effectively hit a Brick Wall on this question. There was an Explanatory Gap at the Neural Light Level. It was clear that our Visual Experience was still that panoramic, Color filled, Experience that we always had. The Light was still there, being generated by the Brain in some way. But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience. It became an item of Faith that Science would figure out what the required Chain of Logic would be. Humanity has tried for a hundred years to figure this out. But there is nothing to show for the effort. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens. It all seemed so simple when we were at the Neural Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking Deeper about the Visual Experience. Even though we knew it was the Neurons, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask the question: "How does this Visual Light Experience actually happen from the Neural Activity"? It became clear that new ways of Thinking about the problem needed to be developed. This is what Science is supposed to do. This is how Science progresses. But instead, a lot of Scientists are still trying to push the Visual Light Experience back into the Neurons, but the Visual Light Experience refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Visual Light Experience seems to be something separate from the Neurons, even though we know it is probably connected to the Neural Activity in some way. The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces. We sense that it must be some kind of Conscious Experience concept that happens in some kind of Conscious Mind concept. But we cannot know that for sure. It just seems to be our best Speculation for progressing forward. What we are Seeing is our own Internal Conscious Light. We have never Seen an actual Object out in the World, nor do we See the actual reflected Light from an Object, nor do we See actual Neural Activity. Instead, we have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light. It is this Conscious Light (not Physical Electromagnetic Light) that is generated by our Internal Brain/Mind mechanism.