Peterkin

And thereby alienated the Jews. They had been promised a messiah to lead them against their foreign oppressors and rule over Judea as king.

I wasn't talking, in that passage, about tribal peoples, animism, organic spirituality, but organized religion in 'civilized' societies (and I certainly never characterized anyone as simple brutes! Not even the MAGA crowd - credulous, yes, I call the vast majority of Jews, Muslims and Christians credulous. Also, please note, I included nationalists and followers of every stripe.) In fact, the shaman/priests made that crucial bridge between science and magic: they were the healers and psychologists, as well as the spiritual guides of their tribe. As were, later on in pagan societies, the herbalists and wise-women, the juju and medicine men of Africa and North America - the southern continent was already civilized and organized - when the Europeans conquered them. Shamans and mages were the peoples' priesthood. These were the ones whom militant Christianity, under the monsignors, bishops, archbishops and grand inquisitors (the imperial, hierarchical priesthood) was determined to blot out once and for all. And it grew very dark, indeed, if never simple. It's dark enough now.

There may be one or two or three other reasons. Due diligence takes time and effort, but it's never wasted.

There was a previous thread on this subject, in which I explained my reasoning in detail. I'm disinclined to go through it again, facile assessment of my mental state notwithstanding. Retirement is my best option. Interesting. I should revisit him to see why that should be.

Me too. You could have said what they were, and which of my statements were erroneous. (None were intended to be deceptive.) True. I didn't feel that the thread had sufficient merit for me to safeguard its integrity. I can enlarge upon the theme of religion, its origins and development (again), or withdraw the objectionable statement(s) - assuming I agree with the reasons they're considered inadmissible - or else retire from the discussion. Because the individuals who fire on all cylinders are burned at the stake in one culture and given gold medals in another. That is cultural selection.

I thought it was an expansion, without going on at the tedious, pedantic length i usually do, of pithier and less inclusive views that had gone before. But, hey, if I've managed seductive, deceptive and dangerous, I've achieved something literary. Thank you!

That's how science comes about. You see parts of the puzzle and make guesses as to what's in between: try things out, change some factors and see what changes, imitate how things happen in nature and thus learn to control them.... That's one side of pattern-formation - and it's not exclusive to humans. Then, there is the narrative side: filling in what may have happened before, to cause the present event and projecting what might happen after, as a result. We make stories, we elaborate, exaggerate, embellish. That's how art comes about. And then, the most emotional aspect of pattern-formation is wishful thinking, or magical thinking: the desire - so strong that we convince ourselves (not you, obviously; those other people) that we can affect something that is, in fact, beyond our control. That's also a contributing factor in superstition, as it is in gambling, risk-taking behaviours, unused gym memberships and popular self-help books. Organized religion, like nationalism and ideologies, is simply a way for some clever people to harness all of that potential for belief (the need to see pattern, the narrative and the sense of empowerment) and build it into a hierarchical social structure, with themselves at the top, the most ruthless members of the tribe as facilitators and the most credulous at the bottom.

Nothing begins with humans; we inherit the instincts and habits of survival from a long, long line of ancestors - and then kick it up a notch, or two, or ten, until it makes sense only to the human imagination - only in the story we tell ourselves - and has long ceased to serve its its original function.

Even more basically, we are a pattern-seeking species. We need to make sense of everything around us; organize information into coherent narrative - even if we lack vital data, we fill in the blanks. We are also intensely self-reflective: we need to impose our sensibility, our mode of thought, our volition, onto the world around us. We need to establish purpose and causation on every event: the human imagination requires that, if we didn't make something happen, an entity like ourselves, only more powerful, must have. Plus, we are constantly aware of death and have a strong aversion to experiencing it, even as we inflict it on others.

waste effort

No. To a fly, most mantids look like plants, which mean nothing to a fly. To a beetle, however, they're predators. There is no trap: the mantis has to actively catch its prey, just like coyotes and humans. A plant just has to sit and wait. That's a big difference, as is the POV. Do you have a comment or question or something? No.

And most things just don't need knowing. Good philosophy! Or, you could start a whole thread about why no such discussion should take place.

Wond'reous insects, to be sure, but neither plant nor animal.

Because mantids are insects.

No problem. I'm fine with that.

Willingness isn't the key ingredient. Nobody except some fabled yogis, who would never be suspected, let alone detained, can control his or her own pain-threshold. And torture isn't necessarily about pain; it can be about fear: people can't control their phobias. A much biggest problem is not knowing what the torturer wants to hear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzw1_2b-I7A My problem is lack of faith. I don't believe in the infallibility of law-enforcement agents, in the accuracy of information extracted through coercion, in the suspect's absolute 100% guilt - I simply don't have faith in the script. I trust - guardedly - forensic science and painstaking detection technique. I trust - with reservations - due legal process and laws crafted by jurists in good standing. Anything beyond the evidence I can prove scientifically is theory, guesswork, hunch, gut feeling, speculation, gamble, faith, voodoo.

We sacrifice a specially fattened meatball every Thursday at 11:29 pm. you're invited. PS Don't tell deepend.

Excellent. We are in total agreement on this one issue.

That's a little bit wasteful, too, as the unfertilized human egg takes with it the sloughed-off uterine lining that would have been required by an embryo. But as resources go, a non-birth is far cheaper than a birth. The hen would have to spend the next three weeks incubating and four or five more, taking care of the brood. That's about i sixth of the hen's life spent on reproduction - but she would have up to 20 chicks to show for it. In the wild, probably 6-10, of which one or two might reach maturity. Live mammalian births are far more costly in terms of parental investment.

Who, me? No. Caged factory chickens never see a rooster at all, so your supermarket eggs are quite sterile. Free range chickens may or may not be co-ed. If so, the eggs are 'candled' to sort out any that might have embryos in them. The rooster (just one, or very few; unwanted males are butchered quite young) is kept separate from the hens, who lay one egg every day or every second day during their productive period (fewer and smaller when they're just maturing, and when they're growing old, as well as in winter), and immediately abandon it, as being no use to them. Hens become 'broody' in the springtime, which was once their natural nesting season. At this time, they are more possessive of the eggs they lay and will sit on them, rather than walk away. If the farmer wants a new batch of chicks to rejuvenate her stock, that's when the rooster is allowed into the hen-house.

Domestic fowl have different life patterns from their wild ancestors. A wild bird could lay unfertilized eggs, and sometimes do, in captivity, when they have no mate. However, they only do so in the nesting season of their species. Once the season is over, their ovaries shrink (reducing their weight for flight during the busy time when they have to get food for their chicks. Domestic fowl are sedentary; don't have to fly great distances, or catch their own food, or raise their hatchlings, if they have any. They're bred to be heavier, fatter, and more fecund: domestic chickens ovulate year round (or almost; egg production slows during winter). In short, like the size and variety of dogs, it's a man-induced change.

Huh?? No idea how that happened. I was quoting from deepend's post, not yours. That one.

really? I've met Chinese people of quite different temperaments, proclivities, tastes and habits. Even New Yorkers are not all similar. I don't know any fashion models. I just don't see eco-systems can exist in that kind of spatial greyscale, or who provides the stimuli and the programming. nope. Just doesn't work for me. Sorry.

You are wrong in thinking that I am wrong. It has nothing to do with ghosts or woo or any of that nonsense. It's far deeper in human social development, farther back in time, far more basic. Why should i even try? Christianity is such a late-comer to supernatural beliefs, so embedded in the civilized era of human history, was so quickly absorbed into imperil politics that it's almost entirely artificial. How is that relevant to the origins ofr functions of religion? How many religions are you familiar with? And how familiar? Obviously. I submit that you are wading in the baby pool of this subject. A little more reading would help. Are you aware that the majority of 'normal' people subscribe to some religion?

No, it wouldn't. Cold is a sensation, not a personality type. Greed is a trait, which part of a personality. Nobody lives very long in either place. Just as events in the rest of world tend not to be stable and permanent. To each kind of external event, people react in different ways, according to their personality. To each kind of single stimulus, people respond differently. OK. So tell us about the analyst or architect or whoever does this pre-programming, so that people are able to respond to stimuli.