Findmeahope

It's really hard to find experts, I thought I could get some answers here. I have tried contacting a few doctors with no avail. From reading 'Ontogeny of the Pelvis' - it appears that the growth trajectory in which growth plates (specifically the pelvis ones) grow is dependent on the hormone profile. It makes sense to me at least. https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ar.23541 If anyone here knows of someone I could get hold of I would really appreciate it. I heard about this too. I hope something comes out of this in the context of the thread. I don't know if it's even much of a stretch considering they do complete replacements of bones in certain situations.

Oh, so you don’t think it would provide any remodelling the bone itself? Like if a male type pelvis had epiphyseal plates placed in the areas where the previous plates closed, with the right hormone profile surely it would encourage the female trajectory of growth?

Sorry to bump this thread, but I would like to ask you for your thoughts on the matter, I found this site: https://www.mtfbiologics.org/our-products/detail/pelvic-graft a company that provides grafts, these also include epiphyseal plates, do you think if this plates were to be transplanted to another person they would still be able to provide growth? If a post puberty bone were to have an epiphyseal plate transplanted back, would the body do what it does usually during puberty, which is removing old bone and making new bone effectively giving the bone structure it’s new shape.

Is there anything else I could possibly do? Should I try another email? I have only sent one which was two months ago.

That is true... I do have a question though, do you know of any ways I might be able to contact the author of the study? I've tried emailing the university but to no luck, no response

I understand the caution with identity and vanity, however, it is absolutely a fact that sometimes the bone structures in males and females can be really drastic that it would take reopening those growth plates. Not just that, but this could be used to help anyone with any kinds of medical conditions, such as if someone's growth plates are faulty or close prematurely. When it comes to experimentation on animals, there's ethics that are involved isn't there? You aren't allowed to preform experiments on animals unless it is painless and humane, and if it hurts them, you need to stop? I might be wrong on this. I think though it's pretty straight forward, I can't imagine you'd need to do too much heavy experimenting except for the regulating of hormones to encourage the regeneration of the growth plates.

Hi all, I posted here a while ago on the topic of 'bone remodeling' specifically in relation to the pelvis. Many here disagreed with the premise to even begin with, others think it's too far off. My initial thought was that bones could be remodeled through cutting bone and carefully placing and removing bits and pieces to create the desired outcome. Cutting bone and replacing parts with stem cell-grown material is invasive to put it simply, and absolutely would require a large recovery time and risk assessment as well as research. However, while discussing this with others interested, a research article was found that documents the and I quote: "reappearance of growth plate." Two young patients in this study were of the age where the growth plates have closed, however, following a break in the ankles, there was a reappearance of the growth plate. Others have speculated that this could be a mixture of hormones that could influence the reappearance of the growth plates; hormones control osteoblasts and osteoclasts, between ossification and resorption. Controlling PTH and Vitamin D can influence presence and activation of osteoblasts and osteoclasts. Click here for the a summary of the study. And here for the full study paper. Through controlling of specific hormones, would it be viable to make precise cuts in the bone to lead to the reappearance of the growth plates? If this were to be successful, I imagine this would essentially aid in the changing of the pelvis almost completely, especially if it's a male pelvis to a female pelvis, though I'm not sure whether a female pelvis would or could go narrower through the use of growth plates. This would also help people who desire to be taller without going through the process of breaking the bones and stretching them slowly.

Yes. They have been able to make "male eggs" and "female sperm". Though they have only been allowed to go through with mice. It would be good to see it done with human beings. The ethics behind this case aren't blurry, it's a case of people gatekeeping opportunities out of redundant fear.

Ah I see, so that’s a plus! That means all that would need to be done is the reshaping of said bone to align with the pelvis structure. as for it being advisable… obviously probably not as I’ll showcase in the “presentation”, however, I do think it’s a start, what I’ll show is basically how one might go about remodelling a pelvis, this is ignoring all muscle attachments and ligaments. Later on I’ll focus on how to tackle the issue of ligaments specifically as well as muscles, though ligaments are the ones that I think will be the most tricky. From research I’ve done it seems this could very well be possible. Gotta start saving my sources so I can show you. Also sorry for late reply, lots of studying.

I see, if donor bone is used wouldn’t the patient need to be on immune suppressants? Or would the body eventually replace the bone with its own cells? How long does the 3D printed bone last? I know titanium doesn’t last over a decade if I recall. im actually currently cooking something up, I think this’ll be able to show you how it could be done, so stay tuned!!

Yeah China is not progressive at all. Maybe they could be convinced anyhow. I’ve been doing more studying recently and maybe it could be more possible with the combination of titanium or other safe material to hold the bones together while they heal. I don’t think it’s really that bad, calculations just need to be precise. Is there a material that binds with bone?

I think there's some reason to experiment with something like this, not because it will have a large market, I think its market size will increase because many women are unhappy with their hip size, so the safer it becomes the more people will want it done. I think being able to do something like this would be revolutionary on it's own, and open up possibilities for people who have injuries, etc. I think the domino effect works both ways as we discussed before. Yeah, I really don't like that religion has dictated so much of what's possible. I actually want to try get in contact with the people who were involved in that procedure I sent you, the growing Vagina's in labs one. You wouldn't know anyway one might go about that, would you? I'm super interested to why this hasn't been attempted since and if so, why it hasn't been reported on. I have little hope for the USA, which is why places like Sweden and other progressed countries probably need to start kicking it up a notch in terms of medical quality and innovations, even if it means going to China to do that. I do think that since COVID there have been a lot of stagnation, however, I think the long term damages from COVID could be helped significantly through stem cell research, which as I said would come from such a breakthrough such as a remodeling a pelvis. I have attached some images, the pelvis doesn't seem to have such a drastic difference in terms of being sexed, so it would appear it would be straight forward to use bone lengthening methods to achieve this under the layers of muscles directly on the bone, however, there's one issue that makes this hard, ligaments. Ironically, there might actually be a way to achieve this a natural way; https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-cosmetic-surgeons-expand-the-pelvic-bone-on-MtF-transgender-people-as-an-alternative-to-silicone-implants If you take a read through some of the replies to this question, Kevin Stone makes a interesting point that I actually knew before , but not to this extent: " It probably means that hormones play a far greater role in pelvic geometry than they are given credit for. The most likely hormone to target is relaxin. Laxity in connective tissues between the components of the pelvis apparently plays a far greater role than is generally acknowledged. If that’s true, then it is also likely true that, even in the absence of relaxin supplementation to approach feminine levels, stretches that loosen those connective tissues may help. Another biomechanical difference between men and women that is often overlooked is the connective tissue web at the pelvic inlet (spanning the pubis and ischium) is markedly different, given that it is continuous in the male while it is discontinuous in the female, where the vaginal introitus compromises its continuity. This means that there would be less structural integrity to the female pelvic inlet, allowing it to open and biomechanically resulting in a wider flare to the ilia. If all of this is true, then the addition of relaxin to the hormonal regimen, addition of stretches to loosen pelvic joints, and the increased laxity afforded by sectioning of the pelvic inlet fascia in order to create a vaginal canal all have the potential to somewhat modify a natal male pelvis, even well beyond the age of 25, toward the classic female pelvic geometry. Again, recent studies now show pelvic geometry changing throughout life and doing so markedly post-menopause. " Even with the bone plates fusing, there's a change in the geometry of the pelvis. Another idea would be making it so the body remodels itself. Now this is obviously 200 years away but an interesting concept considering we already use stem cells naturally to replace our bones, so it could be possible if we figured out the instructions, we could modify it so that the body modifies it's bone (and organ if you wanna go far enough) structure. I'm weary of cutting through ligaments, since blood supply isn't great, but then again, if we can grow that tissue in a lab we bypass this issue once again, easily. Love to hear your thoughts, this is the first time I've had such proactive discussion around this, took me a while to find these forums.

Not necessarily, as long as overall they do. All new procedures start off expensive, this is the nature of the economic system. An example of this is that many to most components within the smart phone were made by the government and funded by the government for university research, this only brought returns tens of years later. I'm actually currently doing economics and psychology at school which is why I can only really reply on weekends so I apologize for the response time. After that next year I'm going to do medical science as well as this is also an area I am passionate about. Also, I thought this would be interesting to show you. This is what we are capable of, amazing things to help people, we should absolutely do it. Oh, next reply I'll send you some threads I found on this topic, I think it might be of some interesting substance so stay tuned! Being on a science forum I hope you are all of the opinion that religious reasons to prevent human progress are empty arguments coming from a place of irrational emotion. The moral positions people hold on getting stem cells from embryos with peoples consent is similar to that of "anti-choice" people, thus they care about life until it is born, then as we can see with American conservatives, for all they care that baby can be born into a poor household and get abused. It's easier to advocate for a person who can't defend themselves and call you out on bullshit, which is what these "moral" and "religious" people usually do. Another words, we should do what's right, not what we think the little man in the sky says we should do. I do agree that Frankensteins exist, however this isn't really an argument against stem cells and organs, more so against anarcho-type systems where there is no regulation of what people can do. It's like advocating for a society without laws. Looking into the studies I can assure you most trans people undergo intense psycho therapy before surgeries and even GRS, which is far more "life changing" than what I am proposing. However I do get where you are coming from, as I think everyone is entitled to see a psychologist, especially in these situations. Oh it's okay, nevermind then I just am using the quote thingy at the top from now on. I've done research into this so I wouldn't be proposing it if I thought it wouldn't be beneficial. GRS is arguably far more intense than pelvic remodeling, yet vast majority of people that get it are actually okay with it. The problem arises when the medical techniques aren't honed. This is why we need more research into things that concern our fellow human beings, as this benefits everyone.

I grew up in a family with neo nazi's, forgive me as I become suspicious sometimes. Though I agree it probably be nice to change sexualities. We can work on that when the technology gets there, right now I'd prefer to focus on something like this for this thread, I'll probably make another thread for changing sexuality tbh. I suck at the quote system so I'm just gonna reply to the ones with "" around them like last time. "It's being done every day. Unhappily, there is nothing I know of, so far, to speed bone healing. You're still looking at 6-8 weeks of healing after each surgical procedure. So, if the change can be affected with a minimum of interference with bone structure, and preferential lipo- or silicone treatments, hormone and exercise therapies, I would seriously consider those alternatives, or some combination." Stem cells, we just don't have enough research, obvious reasons. Governments have barred much access to stem cell research or have at least made it extremely difficult to study. "The even worse news is prices. In some provinces and states, some procedures are covered by public health insurance, but you have to study up on the fees and co-pay options before you decide on a regimen. The prices are truly daunting! " I just don't think this is something that should prevent research, prices are extremely high, this is an entirely different problem that's to do with the system. In the US, if you need treatment, chances are you just die. It's so expensive, this is America's problem, I doubt it'll be solved anytime soon though, they do love seeing their own die and then blaming it on the boogieman after all. "I would think three or four times, and consider all the other options, before jumping into pelvic reconstruction. The much better news is that health-care community takes this issue seriously and there is a ton of information as well as support. Here is a very mainstream overview of what's available. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21526-gender-affirmation-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery. The link I gave you earlier is advertising a more extensive and expensive range of services." I understand, for now obviously it hasn't been looked into, but with the appropriate tools, it should be possible with nowhere near the danger that it would pose at the moment with no trials or research. Doing research within healing possibilities, stem cells is probably the way to go. And this as well. To name a few anyway. "I do get that. You can't be on discussion boards without encountering that granite wall of prejudice. Obviously, part of the solution is altering public perception - but that takes time, co-operation and media attention, and you can't wait another century for acceptance." It is definitely hard. But even with acceptance, having the body match as much as possible is beneficial overall all round. "I wonder why. How's it any skin off their... Do they feel you're deserting to the enemy - or what? Anyway, that's a whole 'nother can of Spaghetti-O's. " I don't understand? Do you mean penis'? I'm sorry I am unfamiliar with your use of words. "Yes, future technology, including stem cell remodelling, will make it much easier. But people who are desperately unhappy right now, that's little consolation. Such people need to access whatever help is at hand where they live.... plus perhaps consider the option of relocating to some place where they're more readily accepted or better served. But that's another avenue closed by this forever pandemic. " For sure, but in the meantime there's no harm in killing multiple birds with one stone though. Maybe in 500 years we could do it, I don't know though anytime soon. I think we'll be transplanting brains to bodies before we get to that point. Human's really are strange, I guess that's what makes us beautiful though.

I am really sorry for late reply! I’ve had such a busy week!! It’s hard for me to respond to the entire quote at once so I’m going to take parts and put them in “” and then respond below. “I had assumed that from the start. We're talking about purely cosmetic, rather than functional changes. Fair enough - and a considerable alteration can be done now. How easy or difficult it is medically depends to a large extent on what the starting point is and what the aim is. Turning a male football player into a female fashion model is a formidable challenge, while turning a wimpy male stockbroker into a self-assured female stockbroker wouldn't be that hard, either surgically or psychologically. “ Like I said, no turning football players that are 6’4 into 5’5 fashion models, I don’t see this as purely cosmetic, it’s a different kind of cosmetic that’s needed for trans people, that’s the difference. Depending on how much the person has been affected by testosterone or estrogen, it shouldn’t be too difficult. It’s a matter of weighing out the bone structure. “As you say, emergent technology will make alterations more accessible and less arduous.” I hope so! “Still, my main concern is not with technique, which is already quite advanced, but with the patient's endurance. Every one of these procedures is lengthy and painful and requires a long recovery time. If you're going to have a new life as the person you've always felt you should be, I don't think you want to spend the best years of it in traction, isolation and physiotherapy.” I just don’t know if it would be near as bad as you suggest, sure, physio trips, sure, but I don’t think a surgery like this would be released to the public if these were the consequences, we need a way of speeding recovery. Which is where stem cells come in. “I would very strongly urge every prospective patient to do a cost-benefit analysis, and decide in very practical terms how much they actually need to change. There is a vast range and variety of both male and female body types: it shouldn't be that hard to find the right formula to go from the undesired to the desired type with a minimum of structural damage.” That’s true, but the point is to get the person as in line with that sex as possible, if we can do it, I think we should do what we can to do it. “You've mentioned that before. I don't know what will become possible, but I hope that, unless our society changes considerably in the meantime, this idea remains science fiction. Not because of what such technology would do for people who want a second chance to grow up the way they think nature should have let them grow up - they have all my sympathy. But for all the other people who would put that same capability to nefarious uses. All new technology has a dark side!” I understand. I just don’t think nefarious people should prevent the surgery for people that need it. I’m gonna tell you something that a lot of people usually don’t take into consideration. Trans people lag behind significantly compared to the rest of society and sexual minorities, this is due to a few reasons, first is stigma, second is the biggest one, passing. Trans people that don’t pass will struggle through life, relationships, sex, finding jobs, it becomes extremely difficult and sometimes impossible, in fact it’s dangerous. It’s even worse for trans people that are gay. Gay men particularly are very hostile towards trans men as it is. Being able to pass, is a must for this group, if we can do it, we should do it. I know you don’t want to see people suffer, you even said it, the way to do it is to make sure it’s done properly, every good thing is hijacked eventually, look at breast augmentations, but it shouldn’t stop us from trying to do what we can to help one another. Being able to get this kind of thing working along with the stem cells, would create a domino effect like you said happens with surgeries for injuries, just this time it would come from a surgery for a different kind of issue. Hope this made sense! A sex change isn’t changing someone’s sexuality though, even if they do become a woman or a man attracted to the opposite sex, and what about those who are attracted to the same sex? What you’re saying is to turn people straight, cool, then you should have no problem turning people gay then, I know a lot of women that wish they were lesbian, I know for a fact people would like to try that out. My main concern is that you spoke of only turning the said people straight, in which case I’m wondering if you’d want the same for people who want to be gay. If they can do it, I have no objection. It just shouldn’t be forced. And at that point I’d expect there not to be a societal expectation to wipe out lgbt people from existence. exactly! I agree, no one thought a pigs heart could work for us, just like no one thinks what I’m talking about will be done, but I know it will, I’m just speculating how so it could be. If we can do good, we should.

You said just give them extra testosterone or estrogen in the brain, I was telling you that's not how it works. If doing that doesn't work today, why would doing the same thing work in 100 years? If people want to find a way to change people's sexual orientation, it would make a lot more sense to be working both ways, changing people to be gay, and changing people to be straight, trying to create a way to "change inclination" (very vague), just comes across as seeking to make everyone straight. Never said discussion is what I don't want to hear, I'm saying that what you're talking about doesn't help much in the way of the topic at hand, which is changing bone structure. Even if changing inclination was a possibility, the reasons behind it are almost always shady. The same is to make the world better for all of us, not worse. Ah yes yes I see, the ligaments attached there, it'd just be easier to do it the way we do it now. Maybe that would be preferable now in regards to adding a graft or taking out. But I'd still enjoy some further discussion into what would be possible with the ever growing tech we have now. Keep in mind we are assuming the individual won't go through a vaginal child birth. I've recently come across something interesting in regards to different pelvis types. Again, the goal isn't to do a change from an anthropoid pelvis all to a very wide gynecoid pelvis, it would have to be within a range that would fit within a what'd we'd see as female for their body. I've looked over the ligaments and muscles, ignoring the bottoms pelvis ligaments for a second, the muscles seem to form an overlay on parts of the pelvis, meaning you could lift it up and see exposed bone, which means technically going around it would have you not having to tamper too much with the connections as here in an example with ligaments. Using this method perhaps reshaping somewhat could be easier if we were able to fill in the gaps with bone grown from the patients cells or from bone taken elsewhere. The muscle compromisation is due to the trauma, right? Usually if the patients follow instructions for rehab they gain function fairly quickly. What would help with lessening compromising of muscles would be extra support from stem cells, which we already use but only in very specific procedures (the ethics behind it is still a debate for some reason). I understand your concerns for a procedure like this, obviously it shouldn't be even attempted now, but with what is possible with what we have it seems like a reality we may be able to tap into. What you said is definitely true, the reason we have clavicle shortening and lengthening surgery is from techniques used to help those who have injured collar bones. Though, I still think it could work both ways, if we can do this, we can use these techniques for everyone. In fact my other interest along with helping people with this condition are those who have been unfortunate enough to be in accidents or burns, if there's a way to make life better for our fellow human beings, I think we should do it, as it benefits everyone. Sorry for the speech! Got carried away there for a moment. Just on the vanity note, I think in certain situations we need to be able to separate vanity from a need. Like for example, a woman that is trans may need electrolysis, sure it is for looks, but ultimately not having access to that kind of treatment is detrimental to the person and can be dangerous in many countries. They lack behind social progress as it is, the reason is because many people view them as a mutant mixture of the two sexes, creating disgust. But again, someone that wants to look like those cartoon characters, 100% vanity and I don't see any benefit to looking into surgery to make someone like that unless I see a convincing argument to our that would improve society and the lives of others. It can be hard, usually they look at the pelvis, but usually they can tell the difference, especially in regards to different ethnicities. I think fillers and implants and fat transfers are great, but ideally I'm just brain storming what's possible with others who have knowledge within medical science. I think the hardest part is that we haven't got full access to the healing capacity yet to do bone altering surgeries. And before you say anything, yes not too drastic obviously, we aren't 1000 years into the future yet, talking enough to make a difference! I think it would help with algorithms as well, which they use in medical centers for implants and fat transfers to see what the body will/should look like. Forgot to add this in, but if we could find a way to make bone malleable and soft for a period of time, that could help drastically. There's also the reversing of the chemical reactions a sex hormone has done, though I'm not entirely versed on how that will work. Was talking to someone who was specializing in biochemical science and they said from the biochemical standpoint, ever reaction is reversible. "It comes down to kenetics, catalysts, and overall energy in the system. Though metabolic pathways can be extremely complicated". Just thought I'd add that in there. I know we can bend bones with vinegar, not sure on the effects that would have on bone within a living person though. Still doing research into all of this.

Well, I'm mostly asking if it's possible, not where the funding where come from. Dysphoria is an awful thing to experience. Thank you for your contribution, you have no idea how much it means. I know for other procedures, algorithms are used to see what people may look like after surgery, could we technically look at each individuals body, say a trans male and female around the same height and use the algorithm to help in taking in missteps when it comes to the procedure? Something that comes to mind is how we've done it for figuring out how ancient animals may have walked or flied. If I'm correct, don't we replace hips already to an extent? Usually from the joints, which wouldn't need to be touched I would think. Regarding the male and female pelvis difference's, I'm just gonna copy and paste it here quickly: Male is smaller and narrower with heavier and thicker bone while female is bigger and wider with lighter, thinner and denser bone, I don't think this would matter much in appearance or function but may provide some difficult/other precautions to be taken. Male pelvis is designed to support a heavy body with a stronger muscle structure, female serves for the purpose of childbearing and easier delivery, I can't see this baring too much of a risk for individuals who have been on HRT for years or are still very young (not talking 70s more so talking 20s or 30s). Male false (greater) pelvis is deep while the female false (greater) pelvis is shallow. Pubic arch difference doesn't seem to be too much of an issue compared to the acetabulum, since that's where the joins are which could cause complications with walking, but again, if we could use technology to our advantage, maybe it could be plausible? The coccyx seems to be largely irrelevant since I don't even know if it would be as universal as say general pelvis shape. Pelvic brim, outlet and greater sciatic is the general stuff most people know, but I still think it could help to use any technology to advantage. The 3D printed bones looks extremely promising, but what about using organic material instead? I know talk of growing bone in labs has been preformed, if we can dictate how that bone grows to a degree couldn't we be essentially 'printing' actual bone and tissue? As for the ligaments and muscles, that's why I think it would be harder to fully replace the hip, unless you go around of the parts that are attached to muscle and replace the rest, keep it in place with what we use to keep bone in place already, or something newly developed all together. I know before you said that it's 'a crazy procedure to appear slightly more masculine or feminine', but is that really true though? Bone structure seems to play a large role in appearance and especially comfort within people who have the misfortune of being born transsexual. That's not how it works. It's been tried. Please, only comment you have contribution. This is not about that, this is about people who experience the extreme discomfort within their bodies, transgender or transsexuals. Not to mention if this becomes possible it would have a domino effect anyway because we could use these techniques for people with facial injuries and bad deformities. Thank you! I've brought this to some other sites, the reason I brought it here is because I wasn't getting much help. Are there any ways you can think of that could make this possible? Contribution. "It's not possible, end of story, goodbye!" is not what I meant as contribution. I really appreciate your reply, I didn't see the comment you made since I'm only getting back to this thread days later since life is busy. Other than that, do you think using algorithms could help with trying to achieve this? What about softening bone to become more malleable, another idea though is far further away is, the possibility of reversing the effects of puberty and growth, someone has mentioned some kind of cross genetics with that so I just kind of wrote it off. Kind regards, findmeahope.

Hi, this has been on my mind to the point I’ve even been trying to do research into it. Would it be possible to remodel bones? Such as the pelvis? This is in regards to sex changes. Looking at the male and female pelvis, the differences don’t seem so radical that it would be impossible to remodel one to look like the opposite sex. Could we theoretically speaking, make cuts in the bone and around the pelvis and place them in a wider position to match that close to a females? Obviously we would need to calculate the extra bone that would need to be put in place which I assume could be done through growing them through stem cells or taking bone from other parts of the body to fill in any gaps. To hold the bones together I’m thinking possibly a thin, strong casing with connections could be used to surround the bone. Since male and female pelvis’ have basically the same muscle attachments, I don’t think muscle would need to be cut, it’d basically just be bone. From research I’ve done there’s been talk on stem cells and their ability to aid with scar free healing as well as aiding in healing bone during surgery, if we could selectively regulate cells activity (osteoblasts and osteoclasts for bones) to further aid in healing, then technically we could model a pelvis to that of the opposite sex? After the procedure I can imagine the surgeon going in and essentially smoothing out the bone if there’s any small bumps that have formed, etc. There seems to be a split on this, some people have said you’d be better off replacing the entire pelvis completely, but I disagree if you already have something to work with. appreciate any contribution to discussion.