Wizard22

If you knew your meaning of life, then I believe you would have demonstrated such knowledge earlier in this thread. Since you have not, I can only presume you are implying more than you let on. Furthermore, you were wrong when you accused my Meaning of Life as nihilistic. That proved to me that you weren't paying attention to what I was saying, and the course of this discussion, as well as the "arguments" within it. My "Meaning of Life" must have something in common with yours, yours with mine, and all other Life. That's the key. Life is a force greater than oneself. Since you are the last participant in this thread, I will reply as long as you like, but I think you have more to learn from me than me from you, at this point.

An argument takes two sides. It seems that you are the only one remaining interested in this thread and the Meaning of Life. Do you have any questions, or answers, remaining?

If Meaning is external, then how do you know it doesn't originate from those sources you just said? I mean, you're presuming quite a lot, right there.

My response on Online Philosophy Club Forum: If Objective Reality were not accessible then it wouldn't be "Real". I think rationality, logic, and deduction are used to access Objective Reality. Existence exists, beyond human knowledge. Existence doesn't require you or I, to exist. If you fall asleep, the universe doesn't disappear with your unconsciousness. That said, It's pretty obvious that people are holding back what they really believe about the Meaning of Life when they say "The Meaning of Life, is to live" or "the meaning of a dog, is a dog". You can do better than stating the obvious. If you want to be honest, and say you don't know, then go right ahead. At least it's honest. Many people presume to know, but have doubts about what they believe. Religious people are more convinced, about their Meaning of Life, which they believe comes from God. At the very least, with them, with the religious fundamentalist, they can give concise, relatively clear answers, by compared to what we see in this thread. Maybe non-religious people don't know the Meaning of Life. Maybe non-religious people don't have a Meaning of Life. Maybe, being non-religious, your life literally, phystically, spiritually, has NO MEANING. I'm open to that probability. In fact, I take people at their word. Many people, simply do NOT have a meaning of life. Their lives are meaningless. They are Nihilists. They don't believe in meaning, at all, in the first place. Maybe that's what we're working with, here?

Because most people find their Meaning of Life in love and family, sex and reproduction, then it's significant and a standard of the conversation. Surely, some individuals find Meaning outside of reproduction, but how and why? Some men are remembered for great and exceptional deeds, throughout history. History is defined by these exceptions. People are inspired by that (Meaning). Thus, Meaning is directly linked to Inspiration. A Meaningful life, is an Inspired life, is it not?

Kittens and Puppies do not need to be taught how to play. They do so naturally, among their litter mates, without instruction. There are many Meanings of Life, if you ask around, philosophically. Some people find meaning in Art. Some people find meaning in Science. Some people find meaning in Sport. Some people find meaning in Work. Most people find meaning in Love and Family. Are you unaware of all this, or just playing with me here? You've found no meaning in any of these before?

Many mammals do not need to be "taught" how to play with kin. Some of it is instinctual. Implication is not good enough here, demonstrate what you mean by 'piety' then... "The Meaning of Life, is Life" this answer isn't going to cut it. I believe most will agree on this. Surviving is implicit in Life. What it means to Live, also is what it means to Survive. So we're not really questioning any Meaning/Value/Purpose here. What does it mean Objectively? Well Biology is the objective study of Life per se; but 'Meaning' is something different and falls into the realm of Philosophy. Can Science study "Meaning"? Perhaps. If anybody wants to look at the 'value' of Life, scientifically and empirically, then all you need to do is observe and study how some organisms fight to survive, while others tend to rollover and die. Why do some organisms and species fight hard, to survive, but not others? Why are some organisms smarter than others, or more evolved? Or, try this one out—why do higher intelligence and evolution imply a 'Meaning' to life, let alone "more" Meaning than others? I can get as complex as anybody wants to—but you need to Want it. Few people question Meaning of Life; Fewer still answer it.

I believe Religion is dependent upon natural Morality, not the other way around. People cooperate and help each-other, because it is in their genetic and tribal interests to do so. Religion is a proxy for Imperialism. It is the necessary enforcement of a dominant political faction, OVER the authority of human tribes. Thus those tribes are subjugated in the service of that religion, and must repeat its Dogma as a virtue-signal.

Just because Religion can be wrong, false, and lie, doesn't mean it's absolute. Many people do find their Meaning in Life through religion, and perhaps, rightly so. Like most institutions, at least there is some small wisdom and meaning to derive from it.

How did I dismiss the role of religion? Religion does give most people, most of the 'Meaning' of their lives, historically. Is it not Subjective though, and that it is open to debate? It is a very powerful statement that a religious person makes that "God gives me Meaning in Life". I'm not making that claim, but, how will you address it?

Response to Sy Borg (opc forum) I advocate for an Objective analysis of Meaning of Life. Life is Biological. If a man's life is meaningful, then so too is an animal's, so too is a dog's, an alligator's, a zebra's, a turtle's, etc. Subjectivity is a main problem, addressing this question. A Nihilist believes, "because *MY* life has no meaning, then nobody else's has meaning either" or worse, that "all life has no meaning!!!" So Meaning of Life should not be judged according to the absolute Negative, to Annihilation. Why does the Nihilist make such a big fuss? Because s/he is completely Demoralized, Hopeless, Directionless, without a Goal, without a Purpose, etc. Yet, Nihilism is important in the sense, that sometimes you need to stare into Darkness, before you seek-out the Light, so-to-speak. After you see the Meaning in nothingness, then you can begin to appreciate the Meaning in everythingness. The Meaning of Life can be answered more pragmatically too... some great men in human history have led millions of other men, whole nations, to Victory. Sometimes this means war, take it for what you will. Great thinkers, scientists, philosophers...great athletes, these ones are most convincing about a "Meaning of Life", or worthwhile Purpose. Most of humanity aspires to greatness, to Heroes and Legends. Why is Alexander the Great heralded for so many millenniums beyond his death? How about Jesus Christ? Plato? Take your pick. On the contrary, I believe that Life is overflowing with Meaning. This is exactly the opposite of a Nihilist. Interesting that you would accuse me of the opposite?

Can you explain how he or I am wrong? As to False Meaning and Lies, the meaning of such a life is invalidated and undone by a lifetime of actions motivated by false purposes. For example, you convince a soldier to go to war. And the war is justified on false grounds. That soldier, thought he was doing something Good or Just, but then realizes, it was neither Good nor Just. Such a conflict of meaning can be, and often is, devastating for people who experience such. You do realize that things like this happens in life, and throughout human history, right? And that any temporary Meaning derived from lies and falsity, evaporates? Doesn't this lead that same individual to Nihliism, and belief in Meaningless ideology? Does this not account for why many people are so Demoralized that they do believe "Life is Meaningless"? Do you relate with this?

If you read what mistermack wrote, he said that Meaning is found in the relationship between Observer and Event. A limitation on the senses (Observation), is likewise a limitation on the Meaning (relationship/interpretation between Observer and Event). Does that make sense now?

I did read it, thank you for the link. I don't know about this. People interpret information through the Senses. Realism corresponds to how accurate the Sense and information/data is. For example, if somebody were deaf or blind, senses malfunctioning or erroneous, then this would easily lead to injury or fatality. So interpretation is very important. Imagination goes beyond. Imagine refers to Hypothetical and Theoretical situations. You don't have to stand in front of a car, let it hit you, to know how dangerous and injurious it is. You can imagine the danger, threat, injury, and pain. Alternatively, a malfunctioning imagination might lead a person to believe that he is Stronger than a car. Or that the Driver will stop or swerve. So a faulty imagination is just as dangerous, if not more, than faulty Senses. This can apply to Meaning in the context of False-Meaning. People can live their lives around a religion, for example, and it turns out that some of their beliefs, or worse a majority, are False or Lies. Then their "Meaning" in Life was also False and Lies. So we need to account for all this.

It means you'll need to work on your Chef skills. That's the thing about Meaning...it cannot be only Subjective, as-if you or I can reduce Meaning to our own selves and then use that as evidence or proof as to Life in general. What does Life in general have in common? What is the common meaning? To address the 'Anthropic' principle, and fallacy, any "Meaning of Life" needs to accept and recognize All life, past and present. So...which actions or values are meaningful than others? And doesn't Life recognize values "Higher" or more valuable beyond one's own? Can a collective organization, a tribe, a clan, a nation for example, have a collectivized Meaning?

So it is meaningful to eat, and survive. What are more meaningful actions than eating and surviving, any? Or is that the best Existence has to offer?

No, because the "Appearance" of meaning is different than inherent meaning. Life can be meaningful, without being aware of it. Furthermore, I don't expect anybody on a Philosophy forum to be convinced so quickly, when it comes to the fundamental Philosophical question as to Meaning of Life, let alone Existence of God, or the Nature of Reality, etc. Wouldn't you say? Life is a part of the Universe, within it, "representatives" of it, you could say. Ergo, the Universe is Meaningful insofar as we refer to the Life within it. I contend with your definition. How about instead of "relationship", we can use "interpretation"? So Meaning is the intepretation that Observers have of Events? "Observers interpret Events, and derive Meaning (Of Life) from those interpretations." What do you think? _____ Separate response, to All or any concerned _____ Ignorance of Reality or Existence (or God) does not erase the thing. Reality and Existence and God and the Universe can all precede our individual Consciousness and Awareness. The Universe exists before you or I are born or before aware of it. To presume otherwise, is Solipsism and logically flawed. That would be presuming that "All Existence depends upon *MY* subjective consciousness and mine alone!" So too must this analogy be used toward any hypothetical Meaning of Life.

Life does depend upon physical and material sustenance, yes, but the self-animation, evolution, and consciousness of evolved life all demonstrate something completely, categorically different than mere (lifeless) objects. For one, Locomotion, animals can move themselves whereas Non-living objects cannot. Life does depend on non-life, perhaps akin to the predator-prey parasitical relationship throughout Nature. Higher lifeforms depend upon (consume) Lower lifeforms, just as Life depends upon Non-life. As to the 'Evidence', where are the rocks moving of their own Autonomy, or the wind, or a river stream? So what is Autonomy, other than a movement 'against' Nature and Natural forces? Life has a unique type of Resistance. You or I can choose which direction to travel and move. A rock cannot. A stream cannot choose to flow backward. Gravity cannot change its own direction. I agree with criticism against subjectivity and mere opinion. If Life has Meaning/Purpose/Value, then it cannot revolve around mere opinion. It must be Scientific as well, Empirical, Objective. This applies to the existence of God, and leads to the third part of the OP, which is Reality. Reality too, cannot revolve around mere consensus of a majority, of believes, versus a less popular minority. Thus, mere beliefs have relatively little value when it comes to persuasion and convincing of these topics and discussions. So I do not presume that my opinion, that you asked for, automatically goes far. It does not, nor does anyone's. Rather opinions must be met and drawn out through philosophical debate, discussion, and exposition. The validity of points and premises must be proved in time. So when it comes to Meaning/Value/Purpose in life... (I will continue this post as a response to mistermack) This is really the crux of the matter of Meaning of Life. It's not up to a matter of opinion or one individual. It's not up to you or I. Rather, the Meaning of Life is relative to all other life, throughout existence, for all time. Thus, all Life has "something to say" about its meaning, its value, its purpose. Even if it were true that a Nihilist can deny his own meaningless, lack of value, purposelessness, then his deficiency may not represent another. It does not need to extend beyond himself. And, is the Nihilist telling the truth? Is it not a self-deception? Very depressive people, for example, feel their lives have "No Meaning", but those who love them, family or friends, beg-to-differ. They want to convince the depressive person, but, that person cannot or will not listen. Is meaninglessness and purposelessness connected to Depression, directly connected to Emotion? Here is another of my own opinions, take it for what it's worth, life has meaning even when people Doubt themselves or convince themselves when it does not. Just because a person is blind to 'Meaning', value, purpose, etc. doesn't mean it just disappears objectively, and certainly not from the point-of-view of others. Is Meaning simply a relative judgment and belief among a mass of people? Does Life have meaning to a baser or lesser animal? Does Life have meaning to a tape worm in a pig in Africa? I think it does. The survival instinct, how life is willing and struggles to survive, demonstrates Meaning to me. Is that not 'Proof' of value, that Life values itself? And is that not meaningful?

To presume that Life is meaningless, is Nihilism. I personally do not recognize Nihilism, because all life is meaningful. The difference there is between Life and Non-life. It makes more sense to say that Non-life "has not meaning" because it is not Self-animated, does not Reproduce, does not Evolve, does not Apprehend existence, etc. So, in the context between Life and Non-life, Life appears infinitely more meaningful than physical and material things, which have no Autonomy and no significant Existence until Apprehended by intelligence. Thus, perhaps it is in intelligence that "Meaning" is seeded and centered. Furthermore, to apply Nihilism and Meaninglessness to life, is essentially the same as ascribing life as Non-Living, or Undead, or "not truly living". "The Unexamined Life is not worth living", perhaps it is not even Alive? As to my Purpose or Meaning in Life, I'm not quite certain what it is exactly, but I do feel that my thoughts/life/actions are meaningful as-is pretty much all other lifeforms. Most animals and organisms do not know their own purpose, similarly, but do they not feel attached to Life, or that their thoughts/life/actions are meaningful? I think people can only deceive themselves into believing that their actions are not important/meaningful/purposeful, in order to Justify, again to themselves, some underlying gratification to which that self-deception is aimed. As to God(s), I believe Deism is Ancestor-worship. It also can be interpreted as "Higher Power", or intelligence vastly beyond one owns. In these contexts of God, yes I do believe worship of Ancestors is critical, to understand Morality, where we come from, and what we ought to do, concerning the infinite challenges of life and existence. In the second vein, I also believe in intellectual powers vastly beyond Humanity. I believe there are Alien civilizations which observe Humanity as miniscule and lowly. To contrast your terms of Reality, I believe that what people judge and deem as "Real" versus "Unreal" is highly subjective and opinionated. In this regard, "Reality" is very much a vast competition of validation as to what is "Real" to me, but not to you, and vice-versa. People try to gain Authority and Expertise over "Reality". Science very much facilitates this function too. People want to demonstrate mastery over "Reality", not only over Science. Not a Seminar, I merely enjoy Philosophy as a "hobby", you could say.

So there is a difference between life and consciousness, subjectively experienced versus objectively known. People tend to focus on Consciousness, as-if it predicates Life.

How about meaning found through competition and separation? Are there not many aspects of others' lives that you wish to separate from and not take part of?

People can lose consciousness for the rest of their lives (Coma), yet still live bodily (heart beating, lungs breathing). But to that person, subjectively, they would not think themselves to be alive as-if life were predicated on consciousness.

Does that not beg-the-question? Also, what answers have you found, if any?

Consciousness is not required for Life. Many organisms are alive, which are not conscious. So too, you live a life, and despite being unconscious of some aspect of it, does not mean that you were dead or died (yet). Perhaps the better question is really when you die, and how? Is death merely the loss of your consciousness?

Philosophy can be generalized with accord to three very powerful and expansive questions: 1. What is the Meaning of Life? 2. Does God Exist (and How)? 3. What is the Nature of Reality? So with regard to this topic, let's begin with the first. I want to know what this forum's Users think about these questions. Once the first question is sufficiently resolved, if it ever could be, then you are welcome to move onto the next over the course of discussion or debate. What is the Meaning of Life then?