woelen

I must admit, that I did a similar experiment 25 years ago in my young and kewlish years. I used 220 V AC for electrolysing a not too concentrated solution of NaCl in water with copper wires. It worked quite well, until the two wires touched under water. A big flash, a big explosion and water sprayed around and the glass jar ruptured. Also, the fuses were burnt . Since then, I'm much more careful, when doing experiments. dcstegg228, I did not realize that you really intended to do the experiment. Otherwise I would have warned you even more about this. Fortunately no really serious things happened. This is a good learrning moment for the future .

Ryan, "bromine" and "chlorine" for pools are not the elements, but these are names for compounds, used for disinfecting swimming pools. In the UK and most other european countries, a compound of chlorine is used in swimming pools (hence the chlorine-like smell). A very common compound in swimming pools is calcium hypochlorite, Ca(ClO)2.2H2O. Another common compound is sodium dichloroisocyanurate or trichloroisocyanuric acid. Both these compounds slowly release HClO when they are dissolved in water, giving a slow disinfecting effect. All of these compounds can be used to make copious amounts of gaseous chlorine. The isocyanuric acid compounds release chlorine slowly, the calcium hypochlorite releases chlorine quite vigorously, when dilute hydrochloric acid is added. With the chloro isocyanurates you can make a nice constant stream of chlorine gas by adding dilute hydrochloric acid and gently heating. In the USA, also bromine compounds are used for disinfecting swimming pools. A common compound, called "bromine" over there is simply sodium bromide, which can be added to a swimming pool, to which previously some chlorine- or hypochlorite-releasing compound was added. There also are other organic bromine compounds, which directly slowly release hypobromites or bromine at a very low rate. I do not know why bromine is used in the USA, in the Netherlands the use of bromine for swimming pools is prohibited, only chlorine-compounds are allowed. With swimming pool "bromine", which is NaBr, you can easily make elementary bromine, with the swimming pool "chlorine" you can easily make elementary chlorine. The links, provided by Ryan contain some experiments with chlorine and bromine.

Insane_alien, that is a good remark. This evening I'll add that to the web page.

I did a very nice experiment with Mn2O7. It is easy to repeat this experiment, but it must be done with great care. A description with pictures and animation is given here: http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/exps/mn2o7/index.html

Oh yes, there is a lot of ignorance and chemophobia. Recently, somewhere in the Netherlands, a parcel service lost a small parcel, containing some calcium nitrate. The loss of this parcel was mentioned. Police warned people, that if they see the parcel, they should NOT touch it, they should leave it alone and they should warn officials. A few hours later, the parcel was found and some persons in "overpressured white space suits" took away the parcel. People were watching this with fear and terror.... this is unbelievable, but it really happened . That kind of programs only does one thing. It grows k3wls .

It can be kept at room temperature. I already made this stuff before. But indeed, it is very unstable. I do not store the stuff. I make it and use it immediately. Wow, Jdurg, that indeed is not a smart move. I've never breathed more than a whiff of the gas at concentrations well below 1% and even that gives quite some irritation. However, when you go to fresh air again, then the effect is gone immediately. Of course breathing a high percentage gas by sticking your nose in a pot, filled with chlorine gas is a whole other thing . At least chlorine is a honest poison , it has no hidden effects, it bites at once and it bites hard! That makes you learn quickly . There are many more dangerous poisons, because they have no apparent direct effect, but they slowly make you sick, an example being Pb(2+)-salts. They provide no warning. When you notice effects, it is too late.

A few points. Chlorine gas indeed is green and you do not need that much to see the green color. Here is a sample of 300 ml of almost pure chlorine gas (it contains a little amount of air and possibly some CO2, but at least 90% is chlorine gas): http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/chlorine.html When you use 120 V AC, then you'll have the anode and cathode reversed with the frequency of the alternating current. At the cathode, H2 is formed. At the anode, the metal will go into solution, but at the very high potential of 120V at the peaks, certainly also quite some oxygen will be formed. The net effect of the alternating current will be dissolving of both electrodes, formation of hydrogen and formation of some oxygen. So, if you collect gases from the electrodes you'll obtain a mix of hydrogen and oxygen in a ratio, well below 2 : 1. But still, the amount of oxygen may be sufficient to make a highly explosive mixture. A mix of hydrogen and oxygen is REALLY dangerous. Igniting it will cause a violent explosion, not only if the gas is in a confined space! So, this is NOT a good way to make hydrogen gas. You'll not obtain any chlorine when you use metal electrodes. So, it is perfectly understandable that you do not see any green color.

The chlorine, formed in the electrolysis of molten NaCl is the smaller of the problems you'll have with that reaction. What do you think of having 800+ C molten NaCl around? What if some of this splashes around? What about the chance of getting a sodium fire at 800 C? Indeed, forget about the electrolysis of molten NaCl. The formation of chlorine gas would not stop me from doing that (doing things outside is a very good guard against chlorine poisoning), it is all the other technical problems which simply stop me from even attempting this reaction. If you really want to make Na-metal, you could try molten NaOH. This melts a little over 300 C. Bit still, this is a VERY dangerous thing to do. It is MUCH more dangerous than making chlorine gas from e.g. bleach and hydrochloric acid. There is a big chance of getting a sodium fire and having molten NaOH sprayed around. I would say, forget about that. Also I, with quite some experience in home chemistry, also with dangerous compounds like hydrogen cyanide, bromine, hydrazoic acid, etc. have never attempted to do the experiment with the molten NaOH. Poison is one danger, molten corrosive material is another (larger) danger. @insane_alien: indeed, k3wls are a bad thing for home chemistry and they do harm to the hobby of home chemistry. But, that does not stop me from doing the more controversial experiments and publishing them on my website. Of course, I provide a lot of safety info and I warn about the risks. The next experiment on my website will probably will be with Mn2O7 (a volatile green oil, with purple vapor, which sets every organic thing on fire, with which it comes into contact). If I have results, I'll post them here.

My single favorite. If you want to play around in a practical way with the borders of mathematics (e.g. numerical mathematics, number theory, prime numbers, etc.), using your own software, then have a look at this: http://www.swox.com/gmp It really is great for mathematics hobbyists and researchers, who write their own software. A perfect piece of work.

Well, chlorine is nasty stuff, when handled incorrectly, but it also is really fun to play with it... real science comes with a certain risk . It is as with many other things. A motor bike can be a beautiful device, but in the hands of the wrong person it is a killer machine (either for yourself or for someone else). You also need the skills to use it in a proper and safe way. So, don't tell me that noone should drive a motor bike, people, skilled to do so, are perfectly suitable to drive a motor bike. In this way I also look at dangerous chemicals in my home experiments. The really beautiful experiments can be done with energetic, reactive and hence toxic (corrosive!) compounds. Chlorine is just one of them... So, don't tell me to not make chlorine and not play with it. But indeed, you have to know what you are doing, just as with a motor bike.

You are right, this image shows the chemical structure. I do not know the compound. It looks to me like a compound, resembling starch, but with the NH-C(O)-CH3 attached to the rings, I do not know what it really is. Probably it is something starch-like. In order to understand these diagrams, you have to know that C-atoms usually are not drawn. Vertices denote C-atoms. When no other items are connected to a vertex, then only H-atoms are connected. Other groups are drawn explicitly, such as the -OH and =O groups.

We should not be too paranoia about this. Let's be careful not to overreact. Also, we do not know anything about the backgrounds of the story. Maybe the teacher told something about the nature of the material and it is known that it is a natural mineral. Of course, these can also be dangerous, but generally it is less of a danger than eating an unknown lab chemical.

Ferrous hydroxide certainly exists. It is an almost white solid. It is very easily oxidized though and then it durns olive-green. On even further oxidation it finally becomes rust/brown. At that stage it is converted to an iron (III) compound completely.

Poisons are classified in two classes. Poisons can be corrosive. Examples of corrosive poisons are HNO3, Cl2, Br2, H2SO4, NaOH. Poisons can be systemic. A systemic poison need not be corrosive at all. Examples of systemic poisons are PbCl2, NiSO4, SeO2. Some poisons are both corrosive and systemic, an example being HF. Many people easily recognize the corrosive poisons. Their effect is immediate and visible. Systemic poisons are more insidious. Many systemic poisons are not corrosive and many people think they can be handled without special precautions. A salt like NiSO4.6H2O looks very innocent, but it can cause cancer, so it is not innocent at all. Many poisons, which only are corrosive poisons are not as bad for the environment as many people think. E.g. conc. H2SO4 or HNO3, when rinsed down the drain and diluted with a lot of water, quickly is destroyed in nature. The acid is neutralized and only the non-toxic nitrate or sulfate remains behind. Systemic poisons usually have a much longer lasting presence in the environment and for those reasons one has to be more careful with their waste.

Ah... I see. You wanted to use NaOH for making the hydrated version of AlCl3. If you don't have that, you can also use Na2CO3 instead (common household soda).

As with all toxic substances. It is the dose which makes a poison. Chlorine is dangerous at a few tens of ppm's. Below that it can be quite irritating already. At a concentration of a few percents it will make you choke at the first whif and it will kill you within a few minutes.

Indeed, ammonia + bleach gives chloramine. Under certain conditions it can also make hydrazine. Chloramine is a known carcinogen, hydrazine is a known animal carcinogen, probably it is for humans as well. Ran out of lye ????? With lye you definitely cannot make chlorine gas! If you do not understand such basic things, then I think it is better that you do not make chlorine gas at all. That stuff is not a toy for people who do not understand the basics of chemistry. Try the experiment for making hydrated AlCl3 with alum. That is a LOT safer. However, AlCl3.6H2O cannot be transformed to AlCl3 by heating. It looses HCl on heating and Al2O3 remains behind. BTW, what do you want with the AlCl3? Use it in some organic chemistry synthesis?

The smoke that you obtain is very finely divided H3BO3 (or possibly B2O3). It is mildly toxic, but don't worry too much. The boric acid, or boric oxide, is formed on combustion of the barate ester, mentioned by RyanJ. In your alcohol solution, you dissolved some H3BO3, but it is only a very small amount. From that part, you only breathed a minor fraction, so the total amount is minimal. Next time, use a better ventilated place, but you do not have to worry from this one-time exposure.

Chlorine from vinegar and bleach is not suitable. It will be too dilute. When you mix bleach and vinegar, then there certainly will be a strong smell of chlorine, but you don't get bubbles of chlorine gas. You need to make a stream of chlorine gas, which you collect in a separate DRY vessel. When you have this dry vessel, ful of chlorine gas, then throw in some Al-foil, heated, but not burnt. It will react violently in the chlorine gas to form anhydrous AlCl3. The anhydrous AlCl3 reacts violently with water. Chlorine gas is VERY toxic and you have to be really careful not to breathe the gas. If you want hydrated AlCl3, then you can use alum, which you dissolve in water. Add a small amount of NaOH, such that a precipitate of Al(OH)3 is formed. This is filtered and then some dilute HCl is added, until the precipitate just dissolves. Then slowly let the water evaporate and crystals of AlCl3.6H2O are obtained. This is a much safer experiment than making AlCl3 from aluminium metal and chlorine gas.

A charger, that is capable of giving out 30A usually does not really give out that amount of current. If you switch on the device and attach a 100 Ohm resistor between its terminals, then you only have 120 mA of current. The actual current depends on the load. Low conduction of graphite rods? I'm quite sure that the limiting of the current is not due to the carbon rods, but due to the resistivity of the electrolyte. If you really want to run 25A of current through your cell, then you'll need a large anode or a set of rods in parallel. I'm quite sure that in such a case, the conductivity of all rods in parallel is not an issue at all. The contact potential between rod and liquid and the (low) mobility of ions, compared to the mobility of electrons in the wires and rods is the limiting factor of the current. Using a 12V supply is not a good idea anyway. You need resistive network between the cell and the power supply. You really don't want 12V accross your cell. So, if you have PbO2 electrodes, just wrap some copper wire on them/around them and cover the copper wires with some teflon tape carefully, in order to assure that the corrosive fumes from the cell do not reach the copper. This will be quite hard, but with careful taping and careful "glueing" (using silicone kit or something like that), you can make a construction which holds for a day or so. You need to watch your cell anyways on a regular basis. If you plan to run it with such high currents, then you'll also have to deal with all the heat produced. And yes, that will be a LOT. Just use the idea's of Visser's site and stick to that. It is a proven method for making chlorate, albeit not the fastest way.

Hopefully you've learnt from this. Next time, please do not describe in full detail how you did these stupid things. You might bring other people to some strange ideas... Indeed, try to do real scientific experiments. Chemistry is so much more than smoke, fire and noises .

Vodka, what you are stating is nonsense! 300W of power? Come on! 3.7V and 6A gives you just 22.2 Watts of power. Even with 9V and 6A you only have 54W of power. Besides that, try to use current control. On my site I explain why that gives more consistent results. Using 9V between the electrodes is far too much. It is not true that higher voltage gives better yields. A too high voltage allows more difficult (but unwanted) reactions to occur simultaneously, such as formation of O2 from water, instead of Cl2 from Cl(-) ions. There is another issue. Even 3A is too much for me now. Using graphite anodes you should not exceed a current density of more than 100 mA/cm². With my (quite large) graphite rods, I cannot go much above 1A. Only by using parallel rods, I can increase the current. And there is another thing. What do you mean with "what a waste of time". What does it matter? Patience is a great thing, especially in pyrotechnics. Patience learns you to think things over twice. I have no experience with PbO2 electrodes. Too much toxic waste with that, I do not use them now and I do not intend to use them.

Regarding the power supply issue, there already is a nice thread on this subject. Have you visited Visser's pages on electrolysis already?

From your posts I get the impression that you are doing stupid things while not listening to any warning, given by other members. The things you do really can harm you. The posts you made the last few weeks show that you still have a lot to learn on the field of chemistry. This is not a problem at all. We all have to learn. What IS a problem though is that you just continue doing your dangerous things, even if many other people warn you. The H2/Cl2 example is a VERY insidious one. It may seem harmless for 5 times, for 10 times, .... but one day, when you look bad at it, the moon is not well suited towards you, the goddess of chemistry is made angry... it will explode. Violently! You will be the victim (loosing fingers? eyes?). And then? Who is to blame? SFN forum members or staff? So, show that you build up some knowledge, behave less kewly and then you may retry such experiment. I'm certainly not stating that no one may do interesting or potentially dangerous experiments, but from a serious and well-educated person I expect that before such experiments are conducted, the dangers are assessed and that there is an understanding of the reactants and their products. Next time: WARNING!