Luc Turpin

Domestication operating within an individual species member does occur through environmental adaptation. However, these "traits" are not passed on to the next generation. So, differences in brain volumes from domesticated and non-domesticated animals are more than possible. The "trait" is not passed on, but the environment stays basically the same for the next generation at least. So, a bigger brain will still be needed to adapt to a more complex environment in the wild. And so it goes. Also, I believe that epigenetics and horizontal gene transfer are making it more contentious in upholding a pure natural selection model as ascribed a few decades ago. Your statement is correct. However, I would have used "shown incorrect" rather than "discredited". Furthermore, there are examples of very detailed memory recall under severe duress. A friend of mine built a glider and took off with it on its maiden flight. After takeoff, he realised that his directional stick was jammed. His mind went into overdrive and he could see in his mind every single detail of his very elaborate construction plans (down to the single rivet) and realized that upon raising the landing gear, it had jammed the control wires against the fuselage. He lowered the landing gear and was able to take back control of his glider. He said that all of this happened almost instantaneously. This is only anecdotal, but remains intriguing. There are many such “stories” that appear to not fit with the current model of memory.

Trees communicate for sure; but I am still stuck with no evidence that they know why they are doing it; I admit, you always get me on this one! Still searching; hard to find a good example that might open up this discussion; admit also that it may be in vain.🤔 Would synaptic pruning preclude "access to the smallest detail of every sensory experience we have ever encountered? How about the "use it or lose it" principal? I know you do not share my opinion about the holographic state of memory, but the smallest detail of every sensory experience would be permanently stored in wave phase, thereby assuring their availability for recollection.. Indeed, there is substantial evidence that "autism alters synapse formation and pruning", thereby leading to overall neuroplastic malfunctions. Agree that there must be a reinforcing mechanism such as pronounced or incessant reverberant neural stimulation of pathways to keep their integrity. However, there seems also to be an issue with filtering of sensory inputs. e.g. autism having no or less sensory filtration, which causes an over stimulation of brain faculties. .They are getting too much information from senses all at once. This overstimulation of information might also help in understanding savant brains. They acquire more information than most of us. My opinion about it..

I have many times mentioned that I would follow the evidence where it goes. Here it is moving away from my contention that we don't know how the brain works. One example given by me for this was that in an NDE the brain was "offline" and still able to produce a stream of thought; thereby indicating that there was a gap in our understanding of how the brain works Well according to this article, there is apparently a lot going on in a dead brain. "For about two minutes after her oxygen was cut off, there was an intense synchronisation of her brain waves, a state associated with many cognitive functions, including heightened attention and memory. The synchronisation dampened for about 18 seconds, then intensified again for more than four minutes. It faded for a minute, then came back for a third time". https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/02/new-science-of-death-brain-activity-consciousness-near-death-experience?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Statement that may clarify the situation on neuronal connections versus brain waves. "The two major theories of how the brain generates the mind are the neuronal connections where electrical signals travel along axons triggering a chemical connection at another neuron's dendrite and electrical brain waves, which oscillate together at specific frequencies. Both of these mechanisms occur simultaneously, so, perhaps they are complementary and perform different functions. Another theory of mind is that it consists of information, possibly in the form of electromagnetic energy, which would encompass all forms of electricity in the brain".

The point that I am trying to make is that waves produced by neurons or waves applied to the brain have an effect on the brain. More specifically, that waves produced by neurons are implicated in memory. In the case given, that waves work in conjunction with other things is not an issue, because the point remains that waves appear to have an effect on the brain. This study, already provided, gives a more nuanced view on how cells might be affected: "Before MIT's original studies in 2016 and 2019 researchers had not attributed molecular changes in brain cells to changes in brain rhythms, but those and other studies have now shown that they affect not only the molecular state of neurons, but also the brain's microglia immune cells, astrocyte cells that play key roles in regulating circulation and indeed the brain's vasculature system". "A hotly debated aspect of gamma stimulation is how it affects the electrical activity of neurons and how pervasively". https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-12-gamma-brain-combat-alzheimer-disease.html#google_vignette Cannot find the highlighted text, but the effect appear to not only be on the ciculatory activity of brain fluids. Nonetheless, if it was only an effect on the circulatory activity, it would still be an effect on the brain. Waves affect brains. Almost all of the examples and references provided in this thread run counter to the conventional picture of how mind works in the brain I gave you all of these references to back up my claim that the body actively participates in memory, emotion, cognition (see below). You only speculated on one of these references that "tough skin" was the apparent reason for memory preservation in headless flatworms that re-grew heads. (possible speculation, but highly improbable). There is no mention from you on any of the other references provided. Therefore, I think that the onus is still on you to prove me wrong. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brains-are-not-required-when-it-comes-to-thinking-and-solving-problems-simple-cells-can-do-it/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-leading-edge/202402/do-organ-transplants-cause-personality-change-in-recipients#:~:text=In%20some%20cases%2C%20organ%20recipients,from%20organ%20donors%20to%20recipients. https://www.mdpi.com/2673-3943/5/1/2#:~:text=Among%20heart%20transplant%20recipients%20who,four%20or%20more%20personality%20changes file:///C:/Users/Dad/Downloads/preprints202309.1894.v1%202.pdf http://individual.utoronto.ca/mfkolarcik/HeartorBrain2_Pearsall-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_2002-20-191-206.pdf https://www.medicaldaily.com/can-organ-transplant-change-recipients-personality-cell-memory-theory-affirms-yes-247498 https://namimi.org/mental-illness/dissociative-disorder/didfactsheet#:~:text=The%20different%20identities%2C%20referred%20to,the%20need%20for%20eyeglass%20prescriptions. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/28/science/probing-the-enigma-of-multiple-personality.html https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36679938.pdf https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8888853/#:~:text=Results%3A%20Physiologic%20differences%20across%20alter,and%20regional%20cerebral%20blood%20flow. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2766827/#:~:text=Individuals%20with%20dissociative%20identity%20disorder,languages%20during%20their%20dissociative%20states.

Agreed that memory must be frequently traveled or stimulated to be fully recalled. Where lies our differences is in the role that waves play in memory. For DanMP, waves are a byproduct of synaptic firing with apparently no role to play in memory. For you, it is eloquently worded as a reverberant stimulation along a set neural pathway (brain waves) that strengthens that path of recall to a prior or learned experience. Both views espouse that waves have either no or some sort of limited role in memory. As for myself, I believe that waves play a more prominent role that what is currently ascribed to them. Given that brain waves arise from a network activity of brain cells. However, what still remains unsettled “is whether brain waves drive activity or simply occur as a byproduct of neural activity that was already happening”. Traveling waves that spread across the cortex or hippocampal ripples that appear “to play a crucial role in coordinating these nerve cells” may be indications of the former and not the latter. As for how memories are created and stored in the brain, I make a clear break from convention and stipulate that the brain stores memory as codes of wave phase; the same principle as the one required for holograms to do what they do. More on this later as our discussion unfolds. Agreement in principle that some given examples might have a mind of their own. I will push this discussion further by considering the fundamental constituent of all life forms, which is the cell and apply our determinants of mind to it. There is general consensus, I believe, that cells have the capacity to sense and respond to their environment. Take for example the cell membrane and its role as modulator of what goes in and out of the cell. Where it gets more controversial though is whether cells can think. Some believe, as I do, “that cells can cognitively read their environment, analyse the received information and then execute the necessary action. This coordinate cell action is known as cell signaling, which substantiates the possibility that the cell too has a mind”. As for the fouth determinant, it get's even murkier as my search for non-instinctive behaviors has resulted in not even the slightest hint of observation that this could be the case. So, I am left in the lurch, having to say that cells meet basic, but not all requirements of mind. That stated, through cells sensory and response systems, the game appears nonetheless set up to have mind express itself through nature.

Neurons creating waves and waves affecting neurons? Again, maybe not a one-way street. Understood that examples given are "outside" influences, but nonetheless they remain essentially waves. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-12-gamma-brain-combat-alzheimer-disease.html#google_vignette https://medicalxpress.com/news/2024-03-noninvasive-treatment-patients-memory-impairment.html It's not a one way street! Communication is sent from the gut to the brain and then back down to the gut. Not saying that viruses think, but they do a lot more than what was originally expected of them. For example, viruses communicate between one another; this was unexpected. To put the point accross that nature thinks much more than we think it does.

With some of my references, am-I not nudging the mate in seing what he wished he hadn't?😊 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Another study on the involvement of brain waves in memory recall “Contrary to Previous Belief – New Study Links Brain Waves Directly to Memory” “Neurons create rhythmic electrical activity patterns within the brain. A pressing question in neuroscience is the primary driver of these rhythmic signals, known as oscillations. Researchers from the University of Arizona discovered that merely recalling events could set off these oscillations, even more than experiencing the events themselves”. https://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(23)00474-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627323004749%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

I am entirely in agreement with the above indicated statement. There is indeed copious research on enhanced acuity in brain function after sleep. And I agree as well that sleep disruptions during studies must have an impact on the data set. Furthermore, I would like to know your opinion on the statement that newer evidence appears to show that brain waves are also involved in memory storage. Do you agreee or have an explanation for why this may not be the case? If I apply your determinants of mind (sensory system, response system, thought process and independent of instinct) to the probable mind in nature examples, I come up with the following results: all meet the first two determinants (sensory-response systems), most the third (though process) and a few the fourth and last determinant (independent of instinct). Are you in agreement with this assessment?

Some parts of nature might think more than we think they do; no Gaia required. There were some interesting ideas on the Gaia theory proposed by James Lovelock (e.g. the planet earth is a living system), but there was not a lot of traction and the theory soon faded away scientificaly speaking; I guess there were too many issues with it.

https://scitechdaily.com/unprecedented-simultaneous-recording-of-the-activity-of-one-million-neurons-answers-fundamental-question-of-neuroscience/

Asian elephants mourn, bury their dead calves “They found in each case that a herd carried the deceased calf by the trunk and legs before burying it in the earth with its legs facing upward.” https://threatenedtaxa.org/index.php/JoTT/article/view/8826 Magpies ‘feel grief and hold funerals’ Magpies feel grief and even hold funeral-type gatherings for their fallen friends and lay grass “wreaths” beside their bodies, an animal behaviour expert has claimed. https://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/reports/magpies-feel-grief-hold-funerals/#:~:text=expert%20has%20claimed.-,Magpies%20feel%20grief%20and%20even%20hold%20funeral%2Dtype%20gatherings%20for,also%20have%20a%20compassionate%20side. A few more still! The determinants of mind are: sensory system, response system, thought process and independent of instinct. All examples meet the first two determinants, while most the third (thought process) and a few the last one (independent of instinct). Any disagreements? ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Do we really know how the brain works? "The mammalian brain is a web of densely interconnected neurons, yet one of the mysteries in neuroscience is how tools that capture relatively few components of brain activity have allowed scientists to predict behavior in mice. It is hard to believe that much of the brain’s complexity is irrelevant background noise." "We wondered why such a redundant and metabolically costly scheme would have evolved,” "Previous assumptions about the true dimensionality of the brain dynamics might have been due to the lack of ability to record from a sufficiently large number of neurons,” "More than 90 percent of the dimensions observed in neural activity (independent components that one needs in order to describe the observed neuronal dynamics that contain signals that are different from noise) were not connected to any spontaneous movements or sensory inputs in the mice studied. Thousands of these dimensions, containing more than half of the cumulative neural activity of the mice, were spread across the brain in space and time, without forming distinct clusters in any one region and ranging in time from minutes to less than seconds." "Neural activity linked to animal movements was known to be streamlined into a low-dimensional subspace, allowing previous techniques, which could record fewer neurons, to identify these connections. However, more than 90 percent of the remaining dimensions contained reliable signals that were distinct from noise, not required for behavior, and not explained by environmental stimuli,” https://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(24)00121-1?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627324001211%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

"and nature thinks more than we think it does" -mine. If a chimp can recognize itself as an image, then there is a thought process and the chimp has then a mind. The point is individual cells have the inate capacity for decision making based on information processing ("decisions that are adapted to their internal state and surroundings"), a prerequisite to sensory systems; I guess (wanted to ask DrmDoc about this one). Then comes the response systems, thought process and then ultimately mind. Is the game setup for mind to happen? No neurons and wiring required.

Two more if I may! Chimpanzees recognize their own delayed self-image “Unlike mirror self-recognition, recognizing one's own image in delayed video footage may indicate the presence of a concept of self that extends across time and space. While humans typically show this ability around 4 years of age, it is unknown whether this capacity is found in non-human animals. In this study, chimpanzees performed a modified version of the mark test to investigate whether chimpanzees could remove stickers placed on the face and head while watching live and delayed video images. The results showed that three of five chimpanzees consistently removed the mark in delayed-viewing conditions, while they removed the stickers much less frequently in control video conditions which lacked a link to their current state. These findings suggest that chimpanzees, like human children at the age of 4 years and more, can comprehend temporal dissociation in their concept of self.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5579101/ Multimodal perception links cellular state to decision-making in single cells “Individual cells make decisions that are adapted to their internal state and surroundings, but how cells can reliably do this remains unclear. To study the information processing capacity of human cells, we conducted multiplexed quantification of signaling responses and markers of the cellular state. Signaling nodes in a network displayed adaptive information processing, which led to heterogeneous growth factor responses and enabled nodes to capture partially nonredundant information about the cellular state. Collectively, as a multimodal percept this gives individual cells a large information processing capacity to accurately place growth factor concentration within the context of their cellular state and make cellular state–dependent decisions. Heterogeneity and complexity in signaling networks may have coevolved to enable specific and context-aware cellular decision-making in a multicellular setting.” https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abf4062

The general-conventional consensus was that neurons stored memories: “Memory is the reactivation of a specific group of neurons, formed from persistent changes in the strength of connections between neurons.” “The brain stores memories by changing how neurons talk to each other. When one neuron fires an actional potential, another neuron activates. Over time, this connection gets stronger.” But newer evidence appears to show that brain waves are also involved in memory storage. “Hippocampal ripples were observed to play a crucial role in coordinating these nerve cells, suggesting their importance in memory formation and retrieval.” https://neurosciencenews.com/memory-brain-waves-25630/ “Traveling waves influencing the storage and retrieval of memory” "Broadly, we found that waves tended to move from the back of the brain to the front while patients were putting something into their memory," "When patients were later searching to recall the same information, those waves moved in the opposite direction, from the front towards the back of the brain," https://medicalxpress.com/news/2024-03-brain-memories-recalled.html There are many other recent findings that indicate a combination of cell activation and brain wave in the formation and storage of memories. So, what’s the big deal? This opens the possibility that memories are stored like in a hologram. Speculating here, but with evidence and possible theoretical model - Hologramic Theory of Mind. Excellent +1 I was using consciousness and mind interchangeably. Moving onward in our discussion, I will adopt your definitions of both terms. Consciousness is merely having a sensory system; a precondition for a response system, which is essential to the construct of min. And having a mind is reserved to organisms whose behaviors suggest a thought process. As a result of the preceding, do these behaviors indicated below suggest a thought process? “Matabele ants recognize infected wounds and treat them with antibiotics” “If the wounds become infected, there is a significant survival risk. However, Matabele ants have developed a sophisticated health care system: They can distinguish between non-infected and infected wounds and treat the latter efficiently with antibiotics they produce themselves”. Targeted treatment of injured nestmates with antimicrobial compounds in an ant society | Nature Communications Bee-2-Bee influencing: Bees master complex tasks through social interaction “Bumblebees successfully learned a two-step puzzle box task through social observation. This task was too complex for individual bees to learn on their own. Observing trained demonstrator bees performing the first unrewarded step was crucial for successful social learning. Individual bees failed to solve the puzzle without previous demonstration, despite extensive exposure. Bumblebees socially learn behaviour too complex to innovate alone | Nature Clown anemonefish seem to be counting bars and laying down the law “We often think of fish as carefree swimmers in the ocean, reacting to the world around them without much forethought. However, new research suggests that our marine cousins may be more cognizant than we credit them for. Fish may be counting vertical bars on intruders to determine their threat level, and to inform the social hierarchy governing their sea anemone colonies”. Counting Nemo: anemonefish Amphiprion ocellaris identify species by number of white bars | Journal of Experimental Biology | The Company of Biologists Octopus “They can complete puzzles, untie knots, open jars and toddler proof cases, and are expert escape artists from aquariums. Even more fascinating—their intelligence stems from a completely unrelated path to human intelligence, and about two-thirds of their neurons are in their arms, not their head.” https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/why-octopus-brain-so-extraordinary#:~:text=They%20can%20complete%20puzzles%2C%20untie,their%20arms%2C%20not%20their%20head.

Will try and do that too! Thanks for the advice. Feel like a low-lying bottom feeder, but will notheless try and find sustenance.

Finaly, I have been res Good one!😊 Will try and give you more than that!

Ok, well then we don't understand much about it. True, we don't understand the fundamental of why it works; speculation is part of science too; trying to pull new evidence into the picture and then see where it goes. Trusted evidence is most of the time in the eye of the beholder; or what is in line with your beliefs is good evidence and what is not in line with your beliefs is not good evidence. I will continue posting my friend and see if something intrigue's you in believing that it might not be as we think it is.

This is what I think! If most of the evidence is taken into consideration on mind and brain then these statements are mostly correct. “The perspective of the role of the body as a sensory array for engaging life experiences that basically support the metabolic/homeostatic imperative of the brain and brain function.” “Through homeostasis, mind emerges as an efferent response to afferent stimuli. Even more, mind is evinced by and is exclusive to behavioral expressions that suggest a thought process. “ “What could possibly be more to the foundation of mind than the engine and energy that powers the brain functions generating the mind. Mind, to be clear, doesn't exist without brain function and brain function does not occur without the energy driving that function.” “Relative to the body, the science informs me that the body is merely a vehicle that facilitates the brain's survival imperative.” If all of the evidence is taken into consideration on mind and brain (including old-ignored and newer) than these same statements need to be revisited or statements added to those. We do not know what consciousness is, let alone how it works. We do not know how the brain really thinks beyond synapses and chemicals. Also, the body does more than we think it does and nature thinks more than we think it does. That is what I think! I have presented arguments, information and evidence to that effect in past posts and will continue to do so in future ones. correction: We do not know how the brain really thinks beyond synapses and molecules.

Notwithstanding, the results point toward memory being preserved in the body. I understand what you are implying; only the study authors could answer your question. I doubt that going through the “rough-terrain” would be sufficient to grow tougher skin, but it remains a possibility. Did not understand the link that you wish to make between waves generated in the brain and the “domino effect”! I beg to differ. As I have already stated, the brain has the principal role while body actively participates in memory, emotion, cognition. For emotions and the gut microbiota, that relationship is more tightly linked than anticipated. “The brain can impact the gut and the gut can impact the brain”. Its influence is also much more considerable than anticipated. The brain may very well create the emotion, but the microbiota regulates it. “The gut microbiota can modulate anxiety-and depressive-like behaviors”. “Gut microbiota regulates mouse behaviors through glucocorticoid receptor pathway genes in the hippocampus”. “….the microbiota is necessary for normal stress responsivity, anxiety-like behaviors, sociability and cognition”. Also, the “microbiota maintains central nervous system homeostasis by regulating immune function and blood brain barrier integrity”. It also “influences neurotransmitter, synaptic, and neurotrophic signalling systems and neurogenesis". I reiterate, the gut microbiota plays a prominent role in emotion. So much so that at times one wonder’s whom is doing what to whom. And that is the microbiota alone; imagine then what role the whole body plays on memory, emotion and cognition. It's the author's perogative to say that cells have the "capacity to think". As for the immune system, I would say that it is at least a very complex system in of it's itself and is very good at what it does. As for virus, you would be surprised at what they can do!

I will be slower this weekend at responding as this is a weekend of festivities for family and friends

Just kidding; lyrics not evidence; It was too easy to pass! Is it random molecules masquerading as "thinking"? Authors give the impression that is does not seem so! https://scitechdaily.com/breaking-the-brain-muscle-barrier-scientists-discover-hidden-neural-network-like-abilities-of-self-assembling-molecules/ This should have been a stand alone post, not attached to Dim post!

Missed this one! For memory, I offer the flatworm experiment and organ transplant references. For emotion, I offer the microbiome and two way conversation via the vagus nerve. "We know that in animals the gut microbiome can affect emotional behaviour via the vagus nerve." https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2022/05/stimulating-the-gut-brain-nerve-can-influence-emotion "This narrative review summarizes key aspects of vagus nerve function as a main player in the microbiota-gut-brain axis in depression" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666915323001464 3.For cognition, speculation with a touch of research on cells and thinking. "Do cells think" "A microorganism has to adapt to changing environmental conditions in order to survive. Cells could follow one of two basic strategies to address such environmental fluctuations. On the one hand, cells could anticipate a fluctuating environment by spontaneously generating a phenotypically diverse population of cells, with each subpopulation exhibiting different capacities to flourish in the different conditions. Alternatively, cells could sense changes in the surrounding conditions - such as temperature, nutritional availability or the presence of other individuals - and modify their behavior to provide an appropriate response to that information. As we describe, examples of both strategies abound among different microorganisms. Moreover, successful application of either strategy requires a level of memory and information processing that has not been normally associated with single cells, suggesting that such organisms do in fact have the capacity to 'think'." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17530173/

My mistake, he did discard the head part, but the point remains that the tail part grew a head and remembered the task, so where was memory stored before a new head was regenerated. The head part of the worm would have remembered the task, because heads store memory. Are you clicking on the links and nothing happens or are you cliking, they open and you expect highlighted text? If its the former, please click on the boxes provided below the post for access and if is the latter, I have not highlighted anything, because it is a quick read. There are clear indications that thinking and memory storage happens in the brain. However, I would venture only at this point that collective consciousness proponents would say otherwise or indicate that it is both as mind and brain form a whole. Like brain appearing to form a whole with the body, except that in the case of mind outside of brain, its a physical entity forming a whole with a non-physical one. A radio without a signal. The only observations hinting at it for me are episodes when a malfunctioning brain is able to spit out any kind of thinking when that should not be the case. Notwithstanding, I believe that there is no proof per say that this hypothesis is even worth bearing in mind. I offered it for discussion, because it is one of many being considered. Again, my position is not that we should be pursuing this or any other model, but that there is something wrong with our current picture of how mind works in the brain. I will get more info on the mind through brain hypothesis and get back to you. Din't catch that one and good one sayiing that the brain has a hard time adapting to death Wow! The Who! Like that one! And body and cells appear to adapt to circumstance to stay alive and do the business that they have to do! And remember that the pinball wizard was "in a quiet vibration land"; so maybe it is also the case for mind!

Correction: Mind from brain and body: Brain plays the predominant role in mind while body provides energy, stimuli and senses, but also actively participates in memory, emotion, cognition etc. They might even create their own memories, emotions, cognition which are amalgameted with those produced by the brain to form the whole.