tar

iNow, I was talking specific areas and specific people. East Orange really happened. West Virginia really happened. There are not so many blacks in West Virginia, and most of the people involved with the Meth and Oxy are white, but I am not speaking of all whites when I speak of West Virginia, why to you blame me for speaking about all blacks when I speak about what happen in East Orange or is currently happening in Chicago? Regards, TAR And this is important to the discussion because Trump was called a racist for saying we have a lot of criminals and drugs coming across the border from Mexico. Does Mexico have a drug and crime problem? Yes. Is Mexican a race? How does wanting to enforce the immigration laws of the country, especially in the case of gang members that are here to deal drugs and kill people, being a racist. Where does love trumps hate apply here. The people afraid of being deported are people that are here illegally. Why is that hate. Obama has deported many, and he was never called a hater for it. Now I do not defend Bannon or the KKK and I am sick that we have so much racism rising to the surface with Trump's ugly speech, but remember that Hilary fired right back and has been calling Trump a Homophobe, Racist, Xenophobe deplorable person leading, ignorant, unprepared bully. 60 million people took offense and protested against Hilary at the polls. Even people that don't like Trump voted for Trump because Hilary's smug name calling was so offensive...at least one...me. Remember Hilary said when asked who she was most proud to be the enemy of, she answered The Republicans, the Drug Companies and the Iranians. Why would I vote for someone, to be my president that hates a third of the country? People have said they want to kill Trump or see him killed. That is not love. in fact it is going to be a felony in 65 days

iNow, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Regards, TAR when they give me a reason to distrust them I then distrust them iNow, Well tell me honestly where you think you will find bars on the first floor windows of buildings? Is there any reason for people to do this to their building, other than they are protecting from breakin? If you are in an area where you are afraid your neighbor is going to break in and steal your stuff, there is probably a drug addict in the area. In my story from many years ago, bars appeared on the first floor of buildings I passed for years that did not have bars on the windows exactly when the people renting the buildings were black and not white. Why is that happening, me having a misconceived notion and thinking there was drugs and burglaries, for no reason? Regards, TAR

SwansonT, I understand that all drug dealers are not black. Probably more are white, and whites probably bring the drugs to the black dealers that sell to the white teens that sell to their classmates. There is even some talk I have heard that whites supplied drugs to the inner city to on purpose keep blacks weak and dependent. That is why I rail against the drug lords and the gangs, because the whole system tends to keep blacks down in their separate areas, killing each other, and making the area undesirable for shopping and business and economic growth, that would give blacks actual power and capability to run their own lives and make their own decisions. The profiling is self sustaining. The crime related to the drugs gives one reason to put the guy in jail which leaves the mother of the guy's kids to do for herself and she can't rise up out of the low income areas because she has a kid to take care of and the need to work to eat and she becomes dependent on the government and has to follow the government rules and she becomes dependent. Perhaps institutional racism did cause the situation. I traveled through a town in Virginia and saw a group of duplexes all with the same air conditioner and the same screens and bars on the first floor windows and before I even saw anybody walking, I knew it was a place where blacks lived, and I knew it was government housing. Like a prison without walls. I don't think that is helpful to blacks in terms of blacks reaching an equal footing with all other Americans. Not wanting to see blacks in these situations is not, on my part, selfishness or racism. I want the black guy to live next door, and have a job and watch my stuff when I am away. True racism, I think is of two kinds. One, where the person thinks of the other as subhuman and inferior and treats them like animals. The other is where the person thinks of the other as subhuman and inferior and treats them like wards. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, I did frame it like the drug and crime was due to blacks moving in to my area in East Orange, because it was, not because I had some sort of illusion. My cousin, who I was living with in a college house she and my future wife rented from the school I was graduating from after returning from the Army, had her purse stolen on the street right on the corner near the admin building of my old school. Daylight with others on the street. As the thief, who was black, ran, she yelled for assistance from another black man walking on the pavement on the other side of the street. The other guy raised his clenched fist and said "right on brother." She moved out of the area shortly afterward and my wife and I continued on. We were broken into twice, once by a white and black team and once by a black man who was confronted on the street by one of my neighbors, a white woman married to a professor of the school, with a pillowcase full of our stuff. He did not stop, nor did we ever catch him, but that professor and his wife moved out of the area also. A little later we moved out too, because I had a baby girl and a wife, and my wife was confronted by a black man on her walk home from the bus stop who suggested she should not be walking by herself in that neighborhood. Now this was 25 or 30 years ago, so things may have changed, but I do not need any data to know that the area where I grew up and my dad taught college at, went downhill as more blacks moved in and whites moved out. Perhaps we were too close at that point to the civil rights act and there was still payback in the hearts of blacks, but there was also a distrust of "the man" and a general feeling that it was OK to "get over on the man". So blame me for racism, or blame me for not keeping up with the times and for holding old grudges or something, but don't blame me for the blackman's plight. They are grownups in a country that makes a point of not discriminating. And you can turn on any channel and see profession blacks in entertainment, news and sports. You can look at the whitehouse and see a half black, half white guy running the free world. I was from NJ and always considered myself a Yankee that fought on the side of the war that freed the slaves. I always thought myself a good guy and had close friends that were black in college, the army and in my professional career. My feelings against crime and drugs and people that cheat and take advantage of people are because I want to see people take care of each other and operate in an ethical and civil manner. That people feel discriminated against because the sins of their brothers reflects upon them, is unfair indeed. And it goes both ways. Unfair that I feel unsafe when I see a black teenager in a hoody. Unfair to all the law abiding good blacks that there are. But when some goofball 16 year old white young man from a state that lost the civil war paints a Nazi symbol on a church wall, it is unfair to conclude that TAR did it. Regards, TAR

Delta1212, I am sure a lot of the drugs in my school are sold by white kids to white kids but the influence, the source seems to be Paterson, and from my experience, and from what I have learned as a citizen member of Citizens Against Substance Abuse a lot of the drugs that come into the town are from drug dealers in Paterson that are not white. The stories I hear are that young people can drive to Paterson and right off route 80 can buy heroin for 5 dollars a bag. Are these stories consistent with your memory? Are the dealers in Paterson mostly white, black or Hispanic? Regards, TAR CharonY, No I am not alright with white drug dealers, but I blame the drugs in any case and would like to figure out ways for people to not be dependent. On drugs, on welfare, on anybody or anything. I like the idea of personal responsibility, and solving the problems of your local world. Think globally, act locally. Phi would like to solve the problems of the world and he blames it on my selfishness and fear and racism. And he is not finding the proper culprit. Regards, TAR

besides, data can be cherry picked and without reading the background white could be non-Hispanic whites, or Hispanic whites or whites other than Hispanic. And all the white drug dealers could be in West Virginia and all the Hispanic dealers could be in Paterson and all the black dealers could be from Newark, but it would not mean I should not be afraid of a black drug dealer selling drugs to the kids in my town Phi, I get the bingo thing, except there is also the consideration that you want the winning card to be yours. That is I am primarily concerned with making the sacrifices to get my daughters educated. Then I worry about my relatives, then my neighbors, then the people in my state, then the country, then overseas. I don't start with the kid in Texas. Regards, TAR specially if it is an illegal alien... just not the priority

SwansonT, Not for nothing, but the chart you linked shows one thing and the article says another. The chart shows the difference between 2011 and 1980 and the article talks about the difference between 1980 and 2011. It seems to me that a positive change between 2011 and 1980 would be a negative change between 1980 and 2011. But anyway, I never said all drug dealers were black and was trying to make the point that the problems in our society are related to drugs and crime and dependency, not to race. You are making it be about race. That there are people killing each other in Chicago at an alarming rate, I am sure has more to do with drugs than with being of a particular race. If there is a correlation between the killing and the drugs I would not be surprised. Gangs do not have to be black or Hispanic or white, but all those populations are represented in our prisons. The common theme to be scared of, is the drugs and gangs and killings. My stories are what I have experienced in my world. The data you show does not counter my experience. You cannot say I am inappropriately afraid of crime and gang killings in Chicago, when there are obviously crime and gang killings in Chicago. Regards, TAR

Ten Oz and SwansonT, I grew up before the civil rights act. So I vaguely remember not understanding why the blacks had to sit in the back of the bus, and give up their seat to a white person. Seemed unfair and without reason to me. I understand there is institutional racism and real estate agents steer black clients away from "safe" white areas. I benefit from that, as I fear the drugs and crime that come along with poverty. Middle class blacks with jobs do not scare me, but affordable housing being built in my town brings drugs and crime. Selling drugs is a form of income, and blacks do come from the city to sell drugs to the kids here. We have a few blacks but not many in our schools, and the black young man that lives forty feet away never did a thing to scare me or make me feel uncomfortable. We attended parties at their house and we house sat for them, and the Cuban father fed our guinea pig when we traveled. We were neighbors, they borrowed stuff from us and loaned stuff and brought food, etc. to us. I did not fear them because both parents worked and they took care of themselves and needed nothing from me but companionship and friendship. However at a street fair a city black duded up with leather and chains with his dark skinned female companion was standing in the walkway and a woman walking by yelled "keep your drugs away from my children". Nothing further happened, but this woman obviously knew this guy and what he was up to. It is drugs and crime I do not want to see in my town. Ten Oz, you say people don't want to help anybody in need because they might help an undeserving person, so they don't help anyone. I do not think you understand why I for instance would object to government housing, or welfare, or taking care of someone's children who has 4 children with three different women because they are interested in spreading their seed, and not taking responsibility for the upbringing of the resulting children. I can not tell people how to live, or patch up broken marriages or keep people from taking drugs, but having the government take responsibility for raising somebody's children, should be a rare occasion where a widow needs help, or someone is ill or crippled. It should not be par for the course spread across huge populations, like in West Virginia where the result of having disability programs, and welfare programs and no jobs, is a population that uses their government check to buy Meth or oxy. So it is, for me, not that I don't want to help anybody, but that I do not want to foster dependency on government programs, and I will not see children suffer because of the irresponsibility of their parents, but I will take offense at them putting me in that situation, and yelling at me when the check does not come. Regards, TAR

Delta1212, So let us talk about the red fringe around the blue population centers. Is that not the suburbs, the bedroom communities the people that work in the city and live in the surrounding areas, the subdivisions in northern Atlanta and the New Jersey towns outside of Newark and Paterson and NYC? Likely some members of the 10 percent of bosses and teachers and business owners. By this, I would say that it is these people that ultimately decide elections. They are the leaders and influence other people's votes. I am wondering if it is to some degree OK to let people that own things and run things have some voice. As in it is OK to gerrymander so these people have a house rep. Regards, TAR so at this point the only hopes are for faithless electors in December, or impeachment procedures?

I just heard Bannon promotes conspiracy theories like that Newtown Sandy Hook was a hoax and 9/11 was an inside job...so the protestors might be right to protest.

election countwise I think red won 30 states to blue's 20 or something close to that of course the 20 include real high population states so they won the popular vote and should always determine the president if the electoral college was dropped only when 270 is reached which is really difficult for the repubs normally blue states need to go red, which means, like in this case, the blue cities need to underperform although, all that is not important now, now we have to worry about Bannon

delta1212, So it perhaps does show that the electoral college favors the ​​red, and this might be because it was constructed to favor the land owner and slave master...but it also serves to give power to the little states which is important from a state's rights perspective. I am not sure it would be fair to the rural population, to hand over the control of the country to the blue cities. Regards TAR

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hilary+calls+blacks+predators&view=detail&mid=E497E5EE81AE5E5C1D7FE497E5EE81AE5E5C1D7F&FORM=VIRE SwansonT, My cutting out California was in the context of the protestor cry "not my president" and the discussion that we should, rather than have an electoral college situation, go by the popular vote. That this would better describe the situation as to who the country wanted as president. My taking the popular vote, before California is counted, and showing that Trump was ahead at this point shows anybody looking, that the country, other than California, voted, not counting electoral college, just plain popular vote, including New Jersey and New York and other NE blue states, for Trump. So yes, I get it, that the country voted more for Hilary to the tune of 800 votes, but the differential is completely accounted for in the more than 1,000,000 plurality she got in California, which means, if you are interested in the looking at the popular vote to decide on who is whose president, you could say that the rest of the country voted for Trump and California voted for Hilary. Or you could say that only states that voted blue are allowed to say "not my president", that is if they want to forget we go by the electoral college system. Regards, TAR

Delta1212, +1 on #177. That is what the protests in the streets are about. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, Being on the coast does matter. You get more interaction with the rest of the world. There is a large Japanese contingent on the West Coast for instance. I never though sought to discount the California vote. I again was using it to show a difference between the thinking on the coast and the thinking in the interior, and to show the thinking in the interior needs voice as badly as the thinking on the coast. And that minus the thinking on the coast, the thinking was that Trump would be better than Hilary. Regards, TAR

Delta1212, There is a possibility that Hilary is racist. She is also white, also from mid America, also has called blacks predators. There is, I think, a tendency for some to give away their own racism by considering themselves the land owner and the blacks their wards. Just workers, subject to the blessings or punishments the slave driver might dish out. I am not trying to be blind to the plight of the black man, I am trying to accelerate the rise from historical slavehood by saying to them, in my eyes you were never a slave. Never were you my ward. Never since your birth, were you a slave that needed my blessing or my help. Always were you an equal human being, living in a free America, able to work where you wanted, go to school where you wanted, live were you wanted...as long as you played by the rules and earned what you gained. Equal citizen in my eyes. If you think that blacks are not capable of taking care of themselves, then you are fostering the racism and relegating blacks to being kept personages in government housing. Regards, TAR

Delta1212, Why do you say I won the genetic lottery by having abilities. What about my abilities are not also available to others of different race? There are very smart and responsible and capable black men and women that I worked with in my company that did what I did, got paid what I got paid and bought a house and a car like I did. My company hired all sorts of people from all over the world. Common thread was they were good at what they did, and were valuable to the company and showed up sober every day and took on the responsibility of making our products and services the best available. The narrative that I hold the keys to society because I am white, and I am keeping blacks down on purpose, is entirely fiction. I have worked side by side with blacks though out my army career and private life. Regards, TAR

Phi, I understand why the people are in the street. They do not want America to turn ugly and treat blacks and Muslims badly. Neither do I, but I am not in the streets, because I am hoping such does not occur, and I am hoping Trump does what he says he can do, and bring productive businesses back to the cities and depressed areas of our country. And I am blaming you guys, for the division in our country. You say I don't see it because I don't suffer it, because I am inflicting it. Well I am not inflicting it. I am a citizen like everybody else and I look after my neighbors. What ever color or race they happen to be. My leaving an area that was increasing black was not because blacks moved in, but because crime and drugs and danger to my wife and daughter moved in. If there was causation between the blacks and the increased danger, I was right in moving out. If there was not, I was racist to move out. But blaming me and my privilege for the plight of blacks is somewhat goofy. If there is a right way to do things, that creates wealth and value, safety and security, then we should do those things. And we don't have to have a certain color of skin to do it right. Regards, TAR

swansonT, But this barriers I didn't face thing, is somewhat ambiguous. My last name has often been thought of as Jewish yet I overcame the barriers that may have set. My private school was expensive yet my parents found the money. I quit after my freshman year and went to Public school, because I didn't want my father sacrificing if I was getting Cs mostly and an F in latin. I squandered the privilege. There is also, in addition to working hard, a level of capability I had, be that intelligence or ethics or education or training, or ability to take on responsibility and risk, that allowed me to get paid more that minimum wage. These other factors are not privilege per se in the way Phi always states it. Mike Jordan was priviledged with great talent and ability in basketball. Does this mean he should give all his money to some Meth addicts that need help in the hills of West Virgina? Regards, TAR

SwansonT, I explained exactly the reason. California always comes late in the evening and always reverses the lead the red has. This time their 55 was not enough, which means quite literally that the rest of the country was for red, in both pure votes and electoral votes. Regards, TAR

And this is a general consideration of mine. You can't demonize everybody that holds a goofy thought or a special interest thought, or a thought you disagree with, or you wind up with nobody that is not a demon.

Phi, My privileged standards. I have lived under the same rules and been given no more than everybody else. Well, except for the sacrifices of my parents to send me to a private school where I learned the honor code, and to work for the benefit of the team I am on and not for personal advantage, and not to cheat. Both my parents were teachers and I did get a college education because my father taught at the school. So I have some privilege, but not in the way you are suggesting. I worked all my life, served in the Army and my wife worked all her life. We pay the mortgage for the home we have. We took out the loans to send our daughters to school. My daughter earned a fellowship for a year of her PhD work. I do not figure I have been given some largess that I now need to share with others based on some Phi principle of Americaness. Regards, TAR phi, I am sorry, I didn't look back. I got all of a sudden this "we" think you are a dangerous thinker thing, and who's point was who got blurred. Although the conservative fear thing I think was established in some thread I was not a part of, and I think we all have a conservative and a progressive part of our thinking and worldview. For instance the people afraid of Trump being a Nazi, are not conservatives. Regards, TAR

swansonT, We are a country of immigrants. I have nothing against them. And I accepted Obama as my president and he is my face to the world. I was not a birther. I said the debate was over in terms of it is too late to demonize Trump in the hopes of defeating him. Now demonization of Trump is demonization of the soon to be president of the U.S. which is by definition cutting off your nose to spite your face. Regards, TAR

imatfaal, The shoe goes on the other foot as well. I got into it with Phi over dropping California, to view the will of the rest of the country. 49 states popular vote, together, went for Trump. That is with New York and the Great Lakes and the NE included. I am not actually leaving California out, I am just dropping them to see what the country thinks, without them. How this is misrepresenting the other's debating point is not clear to me. I never actually dropped the concerns of California, Phi just says I don't care what they think. It has nothing to do with my reason for dropping California. Any misrepresentation was done by Phi as to my reasons for looking at the popular vote sans California. Regards, TAR

Phi, My allowing the switch from socialist to communist was because my drift was that socialism requires the idea that everybody takes care of everybody else. This is easier to do, when you think of the other person as on the same team. Regards, TAR