tar

But we are talking intricate complications and implications and slippery slopes here. If ISIS rolled into your town, did not attack you, but said you had the choice to covert or die, what would be your next move?

But dimreepr, your approach is a bit ostrich like. If we would not see the danger, it would not effect us, so stick your head in the sand and it will be OK. I have learned that you are not supposed to look a black bear in the eye, because they will take it as a challenge...but what are you suggesting here? Don't look them in the eye? Speaking against them, just encourages them? Really? I do not get your logic. On what basis should they then stop? If they set up shop in your town, and enforced Sharia law, would you be OK with that?

I read it dimreepr. Completely disagree that the press brought down the towers.

Dimreepr, It does not. You just say it does. What empowers them is Jihad, promises of sex slaves, and riches and power. I reject that stuff, because it is against the rule of law, against human rights, against my way of life. Not afraid of it. Does your fear of the KKK empower them? Think about what you are accusing me of. You blame my hate for their bad behavior? Makes no sense. I have been defending my way of life against whatever ideology brought down the World Trade towers. My life changed that day. It will never be the same. But blaming it on my hate, is not logical. My desire to remove ISIS from the world is an attempt to maintain my (or regain my) way of life. Regards, TAR Consider how the world was, just prior 9/11. The day before. The internet was growing, people could talk to people on the other side of the world. The place was coming together. Cooperation on all levels, against disease, against poverty, against strongmen. Ideals of John Lennon were approachable, human kind was all on the same path. The age of Aquarius was coming to fruition. , After, not so much. There was evil in the world, wishing to destroy the togetherness. International terrorism at war with the West. We did not even consider it was possible for an ideology to have power, without a state. Now we know. But just because we have no state to declare war on, does not mean we should not be fighting the war.

dimreepr, I think the results of thinking of ISIS as the JV team and ignoring them has already come to pass. Continuing on that course, will what? Allow the Caliphate to expand to Libya and other areas around the Mediterranean. I don't have any power either, to affect ISIS. Not personally, I am 62 and although I could be called back to the military, we would have to be in horrific sh## for the reserve rules to extend to me. But my nation is strong and capable. Militarily, economically, engineering wise, medical expertise wise, internet wise, and has global reach and influence, to where if we want to get a thing done, we can get it done. Regards, TAR No impact on your life?

dimreepr, But if we 'think' their idea is invalid. And we say their idea is invalid and we act like their idea is invalid. Doesn't that make it a duck? If our thinking, and saying and acting, gives the impression that we are against their idea, isn't it appropriate, on their part, to think we are against their idea? Reminds me of a family joke. My stepmom had spent an hour talking badly about an administrator at her school, his sexism, his bullheadedness, his cheating, his lying, his spiteful maneuvers , his selfish political aspirations, and I innocently, in an effort to give him the benefit of the doubt, asked "But how is he as a person?" Regards, TAR

Phi, I am preparing a really uncomfortable chair for you to use...looks like we are getting close to needing it again.

Thanks for that Delta1212, I still hate neg reps, though, so I am cooling it, for a while. Regards, TAR although I do enjoy talking with you and most others here, especially those who disagree with me

personal note, I lost a bunch a rep points talking with you guys and gals in this politics forum over the last week or so, and I hate neg reps, so I am figuring I am not being as helpful as I think, and it would be better to let you guys figure out world problems, so I am sitting politics out for a while

swansont, no, you are right, I should hold the constitution higher, but it is hard when criminals hide behind it Regards, TAR So anyway, I am out. Lost 10 or 12 points on this thread. Obviously somebody doesn't like what I have to say. Consider me silenced. I hate neg reps.I can't talk politics with you guys and gals. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, I understand, but at some point you need to raid the compound, for the greater good. My feeling is that part of the recent increase in crime in Chicago is because the police are afraid to confront the drug gangs, for fear they will be crossing some civil liberties line, and lose their jobs. Regards TAR DrmDoc, Thinking like mine, responsible for the BLM movement. Really? How so? Delta1212, Bad areas are not caused by a few people, they are caused by the people that live in the neighborhood that don't do the things that would make it nice. Did you ever hear the saying that evil only prospers when good men do nothing? Regards, TAR There are areas that get better, when the population works toward making it better. If it is just two or three bad people causing all the crime and violence in the area, turn the bastards in, and be done with it.

SwansonT, I know people too, the point is there are black areas that are dangerous, where there is a good chance that the guy hanging out on the street corner, has a weapon, or has drugs, or both and stopping and frisking them is one way to encourage them to leave their illegal stuff home, and not take it into the street. Regards, TAR in other words, if you cannot break up the dealing going on at the bottom of the I80 ramp, because it would be a civil liberty violation if you did it, then there is going to be drug deals going on at the bottom of the I80 ramp

At Temple, my daughter lived a block off campus. There was a guard house on the corner of the campus, about a block from where she lived. On campus you were safe, and there was a lot of lighting. Off campus you should not walk alone, as a young woman. At least that is the way it was when Obama was just elected. There was a murder in the subway a block off campus, two blocks from my daughter. A roommate's car was stolen from in front of the apartment. The security guards would not venture off campus as it was not their area and as it was not safe. It was not a jewish neighborhood, it was not and Italian or Irish neighborhood. The people that lived in the area simply did not go by my societal rules. If they had, I would not be talking badly about them now. Nor would there have been a 12ft high chain link fence around her cement back yard, with razor wire on top. DrmDoc, You are forgetting the TAR 90 10 rule. 90 percent of the population are not in the top 10. If you are in the top 10, expect that there are 90 percent of the people that don't have what you have, may want to take it from you, or might not be interested in having it. Regards, TAR

Delta1212, I do not doubt there is white privilege in this country. I do not doubt that whites on the whole have more wealth behind them then blacks on average. That makes a difference. With how many books are on the shelves at home, or whether you even have a shelf at home. I can fully accept the idea that we are a country of immigrants and should open our hearts and shores to any and all huddle masses yearning to be free...but there is also the reality that wealth and success come from effort and a leg up. We have been offering a safety net and a leg up since the Great Society and Pell Grants. There are way more black faces as quarterbacks and coaches and news anchors and representatives and on the Music scene and in Hollywood and everywhere else in business, law, military and government than when I was young. The same victim thing cannot forever be the case. Part of the suspicion that people have for blacks is a result of witnessing the way certain blacks have acted toward them. Same way one selfish, spiteful woman a man might have run into will color his opinion of the next woman he dates, or the same way one overbearing, drunken, abusive male might color the way a woman looks at the next man she dates. I don't like hearing a black person complain that their life is substandard because they have not gotten the right treatment from the government. They are owed nothing more from the government then I am. Not a thing more. Equal treatment, under the law, yes, but not special treatment. You break the law and the police are going to want to call you on it. As equal citizens, no black man should tell me I am not treating him fairly, as I am absolutely not his master, and he is absolutely not my ward. Regards, TAR SwansonT, Have you ever been in an area where stop and frisk would have a reason to be engaged in? Regards, TAR

I don't know why waitforufo wants the Criminal Justice reform issue moved. It is a central tenant of Hilary's campaign and it matters greatly whether the last 7 years of democrat control of the White House and most inner cities has been beneficial to our society, as Hilary is planning to carry on the Obama legacy.

Delta1212, Very true, but these are dangers of living in a city, and knowing the place next door might easily be raided it would be pretty risky to then smoke your pot out on the front stoop. However I completely agree with the unfairness of being stopped while walking while black. I had a black friend from work I used to drive home into a black area, and he told me all about the times he was stopped, for doing nothing. I get it, but I don't agree it is entirely unearned. Not in terms of the individual who can certainly be suspected, unjustly, but I go by the looks, I got, from the blacks in the area where I dropped the guy off, that wondered what this white guy was doing, driving in their neighborhood. Probably up to no good, or looking for drugs, or was undercover police or something. I don't know what they thought, but I did feel uncomfortable. Out of place. I have been looked at by police, when I was somewhere unusual. I tend to like to explore, and I will drive down streets, and down roads, where I have no business. Regards, TAR

Swansont, Most people arrested and incarcerated got involved with the police, by definition. What details do I need? Regards, TAR If I am smoking a joint (I have not touched a joint since I was 18, by the way) on my back porch and nobody calls the police, I am not going to get involved with the police. If I take some angle dust and climb in someone's car and beat on the inside of the windshield to get out, and the police arrive and take me to jail...then I did something to get the police involved.

That is not all I know. I also know they did something that got the police involved.

It is not criminal justice reform we need. It is electing mayors and governors and Presidents, that will look to build Paterson's economy off something other than drugs. Like tourism, stores, industry, offices and whatever. Things that don't thrive, when there are drugs and crime around.

But Ten Oz, You do not know if half the people in prison on drug related charges were just innocent folks smoking weed on their back porch. Plus if you are indicting the suburbs for orchestrating the ghettos, then you are indicting Hilary and Chappaqua. Regards, TAR Plus Ten Oz, If you are right, which you very well might be. There is someone in power in Paterson that knows the drug deals are going on, and they are not stopping them. It would be near impossible to consider that thousands of white folk from the suburbs could know they could get a dose of heroine for 5 dollars by driving off of RT. 80 into Paterson and easily find a person that would sell it to them, and have the Town of Paterson not be aware that this was going on. In terms of the thread topic of Hilary, and your charges, it would appear that someone in Paterson is turning a blind eye to the deals, and as far as I know Paterson votes Democrat. Regards, TAR 1997-2002 Martin G. Barnes (March 15, 1948 – December 28, 2012)[6] Republican 2002-2010 Jose "Joey" Torres Democrat 2010- 2014 Jeffery Jones Democrat 2014–present Jose "Joey" Torres Democrat Mayors of Paterson I worked with a gentleman whose family was once involved with Paterson politics. He worked a chart (map) one week that correlated the areas in the city known for drug activity, with the murders that had happened that month in Paterson. A one hundred percent correlation.

Mexico also has a high gun homicide rate as does the U.S. Coincident is the drugs and gangs. Correlation is not causation, but common sense can do the linking.

iNow, I am not "someone on the right", and "someone on the left" is just as subject to predetermined conclusions, denying the facts as anybody else. The stats that were linked earlier included a link that showed homicides have been steadily falling over the last 35 years, at the same time during the same time period, it showed gun ownership tripling. These facts should slow down someone on the left, screaming that common sense gun control will lower homicides. The facts show that the number of guns increasing is in fact coincident with the homicide rate falling. Regards, TAR where the homicides have increase is in the inner cities, where gang and drug violence is the cause The facts would point to the drug and gang violence as the cause of the problem, not the guns. Chicago is on fire, with somebody sure to die tonight in a drug and gang related shooting. The left blames the NRA. The right you assume blames blacks and Hispanics because they are racist. I look at the facts and blame drugs and gangs. if most drug dealers and gang members are black and Hispanic, then those are the facts

Ten Oz, I do not doubt the statistics, nor feel it is great to put people in jail for drug use. I know people that smoke pot, where it would be a complete stupid thing to put them in jail for it. And I do not doubt that the higher sentencing for crack cocaine, targeted the ghetto user, and soft handled the affluent, Hollywood type user. But there are more dangers, and robberies and muggings and gang killings and the like associated with inner city drug use than suburban drug use. So when the arrest is drug related, you have to, to be fair,g specify whether the drugs were found in association with another crime, DUI, violent craziness, burglary, mugging, rape, murder, and whether the drug was being dealt, or poisoned, or cut with more dangerous stuff, or what. There is a dependency created by drugs where the dealer is the dominant, dangerous, life destroying influence. He is the one that should be put in jail, and the user should not, especially if they have not broken any other laws to get high. So we can change drug laws, if we want, or control the sale of acceptable drugs through state stores, like many states do alcohol, but the criminality around drug use, other than the mere possession and use, has to be considered here as well. You can not just look at the people in jail and say they are in there because they are black. They are in there because they got involved with drugs in a way dangerous enough to get the police involved. Regards, TAR

dimreepr, Had an insight about 20 minutes ago, made we want to come share it. We cannot give ISIS the status of an ideology, because then their usurpation of Islam would be recognized, and then if we fought them, it would be the fighting of Islam that we were doing. No, I think we have to think of them in two or three ways, and fight the components thusly parsed. First, as the Sunni remnants of Saddam's Guard, who are the power behind Baghdadi. Second, as Baghdadi, the new Caliph of Islam, looking to establish an Islamic state that reaches around the Mediterranean. Third, as an exciting, lucrative, satisfying draw for young people looking for a cause. In this case, the fighting of Jihad, linked inappropriately to the fighting of the Zionists, or World Order, or Christians, or Jews, or the establishment, or the West, or U.S. Imperialism, or the apostates or the guys that blew up your family, or persecuted you, or otherwise dissed you. The first, the Sunni remnants, are a political unit, a political force, that we can either fight, or negotiate with. Yield to their power and say OK this area is yours, you won it, or fight them to take it back. Of course here is a small problem, who are you going to give it back to, it is in many cases areas that are Sunni areas, that belong to them, in the first place. But none-the-less, one component is the Sunni remnants of Saddam's guard, capable, intelligent, ruthless, and currently in charge of a criminal organization, controlling large swaths of Syria and Iraq and Libya, at least, exporting terror across the globe. Second is Baghdadi, who has an ideology that is fully Islamic in origin. He is carrying on Muhammed's conquering. He like Muhammed, in the manner of the Koran, wants to show the error of taking interest(the Jews), thinking that Allah has associates(the Christians with the father, son and holy ghost) and the idol worshippers (those that worship graven images, which can be just about anything, including hypocritically the stone that is circled.) Here we have to be careful in separating Baghdadi from Islam, because you can't. If he is illegitimate then so is Islam. Third, is the fighters. Drawn to the cause, by power, and excitement, and the promise of wealth and mate. Same things that draw everybody to a cause, so here the battle is against the criminal aspects of the organization, the sex slaves, the kidnapping, the extortion, the bribery, the stealing, the murdering the abuse and otherwise taking by force, that which is someone else's. Here we can absolutely fight the ideology by killing them, killing their leaders, destroying or taking back their loot, freeing their captives, or putting each in prison for specific crimes. Same way we would fight the Mafia, or any other criminal organization. So fight the criminality to combat number three. Without it the movement has no power, because they will have no loot, and no sex slaves with which to entice the fighters. Talk the Syrians and the Iraqis into ceding some political control to the Sunnis in the Sunni areas, underneath the umbrella of the respective governments, to address number 1. Number 2 is the stickiest of wickets because you can not defeat a religion. Perhaps we might have to lose some battles for human rights, and gay rights and women's rights and let some Islamic nations run things in a manner other than our choosing, like they did 600 years ago. Maybe perhaps here, we can just hope to slowly change minds, by example, and make our societies work, without Sharia law, and let the people under sharia decide which is best for them. With or without is their choice, not ours. Regards, TAR

CharonY, And when I read the stats in the links, I throw in a little common sense, and pad the numbers a bit with the populations and actions that are behind the incarcerations. For instance, when the white kid from my town goes to buy their drugs from a black man in Paterson, they have stolen the money from their Mom's purse, a situation the family has to deal with. On the other hand, when the poor black girl in Paterson buys the drugs she may have had to sell her body to get them, or rip off a mark for the funds. Or a black man in East Orange may have stolen a pillowcase full of my possesions to pawn for the high. The kid that stole from the mom is not supposed to wind up in jail. The guy that stole my best stuff, is supposed to wind up in jail, and the dealer that sold my town's young people the drugs, should wind up in jail. Of those drug related cases I just reported, no white wound up in prison, and at least two blacks did or should have. The numbers are not without cause other than racism. And the solutions are not without changes to things other than the criminal justice system. There is the expectations of what a young black man SHOULD be like, that need some work. From both within and outside the "black community". Regards, TAR Equal treatment under the law is a right. But it comes with a responsibility to obey the law. And not only that, but the responsibility to not only police yourself, but to help police the community. That is, the criminal minded community does not like a snitch. A law abiding community, does not stomach the illegal behavior in the first place. Like with Michael Brown, of course an unarmed young man should not have been killed...but he did strong arm a shop owner, steal a handful of cigars, and reach into the police car, punched the lone officer in the face and struggled over his weapon. No sane, reasonable, law abiding citizen does such things. One could easily think drugs had to be involved for a man to do such stupid and dangerous and illegal stuff. Some responsibility should be taken by the parents to have raised their child to were such behavior was even possible, before one blames the police for racism. Regards, TAR