tar

All, I dislike your pigeon hole responses to my thoughts, as if I am using the talking points of Fox. If my reasoning has led me to feel certain ways about certain things it is not because of Fox, I listen to CNN and CNBC as well. I hear all the talking points, and personally find the chicken in every pot talk just as unworkable as building a wall to keep people out. You point to 34 different countries that have one payer systems that work to have better health care for everybody. You say we need such a thing. I don't know whether you are arguing that Obama care is bankrupt and we should move to universal health care or you are arguing that what we had before Obama care was not as good as what we have after. If we are talking about reality, lets talk about reality. We have already replaced private insurance with marketplaces and forced everybody to buy health insurance. Is that sufficient, or do we need Bernie to bring us into compliance with proper socialized medicine? Regards, TAR If I am to not like halfway socialized medicine, why would I like fully socialized medicine. And is fully socialized medicine possible in the U.S. ? http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/19/bernie-sanders-health-care-plan-proves-t

Ten Oz and Phi for All, r I like your list Ten Oz and think it reflects a thoughtful approach that treats everybody as us and looks for the ways we all win. I am not liking your approach though Phi, because is has the word "them" in it. Here is where I believe we have to look at the reasons why we think of another fellow American in the third person. Everybody is potentially the guy or girl sitting next to you at the fair on the bench or across from you in the ferris wheel. The people we think of as "them" are the spouses of our second cousin, or our neighbors, or the parents of the guy our daughter is going to school with. po President Kennedy said its not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Just before I was yelled at for not voting for a policy that would help me personally. I don't think that way. I have always worked...up till a year ago, and have always been responsible for myself and my family. The country gives me the framework within which to operate in peace and freedom. Laws to regulate commerce and keep people from selling me snake oil and such. Laws that hold people responsible for keeping their promises to each other. Laws that protect my private property and my person from injury and loss. I am not in favor, generally for arbitrary redistribution of wealth. Several years ago, I was laid off, and got a job with my old company in a different department 4 months later. During those 4 months I considered what I could do, of value to others. What offering could I put together that would represent a product or service that other people needed or wanted. I took my GMAT and was accepted into Fairleigh Dickenson to potentially pursue a certificate in Organisationl Psychology...I worked on some ideas to present an offering to firms that would help organizations handle stress and change and maintain intrinsic value and human judgement in a business world increasing ruled by metrics and profit, and. faceless automated decision making,.. I never came up with the offering. It is hard to do business. There are many rules you must follow, many taxes you must pay, many benefits you must offer your workers... Here is where I don't like your "them" Phi, when you call the very people that have put together an offering and an organization and deliver a product or service, the enemy. So one of the things I would like to see, is a relaxation of the rules for how to make money. Most businesses are glorified lemonade stands, and should be as easy to start. Someone with an idea, should be able to start on a shoe string, and not require huge investments or loans, and lawyers and hr departments and government oversight, and insurance and permits and licenses from everybody. I am not talking about wild west, I am talking about not making it so hard for a business to comply with government regulations, that they fail as businesses. So, I would ask that the workability of a plan be considered before laws are made that hamstring people and make decisions for people that should be their own area of responsibility and action. My theory here is that if you can trust the regulators, you should just bypass them and trust the people. If we are together to dream and hope and endeavor to make a better place, it has to be us that do the thing. It cannot be us forcing "them" into compliance. So, when it comes to things like universal health care, you have to wonder who is going to pay. If we wind up paying higher taxes and higher premiums and higher deductables...then we have not been "given" anything. If the reason for universal health care is to prevent a family from being destroyed by catastrophic illness, but it destroys everybody in the process, then what is the purpose. All the plans say we are going to rob from the rich and give to the poor. It has to first be workable. Can YOU pay for it, or can it only be done if a rich guy pays for it? When the 150 billion was part of the Iranian deal, I wondered if it was like extortion or protection money. It is probably just funds we withheld as part of the sanctions, so it is not ours to begin with, it rightfully belongs to Iran...but same idea should be remembered when considering plans that tax higher income at unfair rates. It is not "our" money, it belongs to the individual or the firm, not to the state. The state should take, or be given taxes, certainly, as a "right to use" fee, that everybody, coming to the party needs to pony up. But it does not belong to us as a collective. It is better to have a means of production, than to eat up the principle. So, Ten Oz, my plan would be to enforce our current laws, preach personal responsibility, teach your kids math and science and the arts, keep them from drugs, keep yourself from drug, question the medical profession and ask them to develop protocols on their own to solve problems without pills. Make healthcare less expensive. Fewer lawsuits, Less restriction on doctors and teachers as to how they should ply their trade. Hold people responsible for their own actions. Make laws that 90 percent of the population agree with and try not to create winners and losers. Let people use their own judgement and think of everybody as US. Regards, TAR

Willie71, I base my opinions on watching the world, talking to people, and thinking about stuff. That I would have my theories and feelings based on my experience of the world is completely valid. On many occasions the "facts" that one group goes by are not the way I would characterize the situation. For an example, I once beat a mangy squirrel to death with a shovel. The facts would say I was cruel to an animal. I was at time protecting my young girls from an animal with teeth, that was showing no fear and coming after me. I buried it under a big rock where nothing could dig it up.​ ​Regards, characterizations and spin make a difference as to what one considers as going by the facts most situations are complex and have many facets to them, things you gain and things you lose by taking any action or refraining from taking any action I remember once hearing a person talk about an accident they had that morning, and how stupid and wrong the other party was. I later was in another building of my company and hear another individual talking about the accident they were in that morning, and how stupid and wrong the other party was. You guessed it. Same accident.

After just building the figure out in clay to the third level, like Janus rendered early on in the thread, I counted up the balls required on each level and took it apart layer by layer to see what each of the hexagonal planes and each of the square planes looked like. The buildout is in the shape of a cubic octahedron. As each layer is added it retains this feature. There are 3 distinct square stacks and 4 distinct hexagonal stacks, that is you can see the figure as a stack of 7 square planes 3 different ways and a stack of seven hexagonal planes 4 different ways...at the same time. Where I took it apart and laid out three of the 7 square plane segments the one at 1 o'clock would go back on first, then the one at 8 o'clock and then the one at 10. Regards, TAR

Overtone, The distinction that is difficult to make, is when a person is a Pacifist, and when a person is anti-American. If we fight a proxy war when we get involved in an area, we are already involved and have an interest in winning. Sunni against Shite violence and murder and Shite against Sunni violence and murder, may or may not be directly linked to the earlier Iraq- Iran war, or then and current divides between the Saudis and the Persians. Stuff that happened 600 years ago and stuff that happened 1000 years ago still causes some flap in the area. So you knew there would still be trouble. That is like saying we should not get involved with the Israel Palestinian problems, because any fool can see we will just be mired in decades of mistrust and war. If we had some hope of bringing peace and democracy to Iraq, it was not unuseful to try. And I don't agree it is nonsense to wonder why Saddam lit that trench. His stated reason was to defend the city as it would have been defended in the old days. Silly. He had other reasons for digging that trench and lighting it on fire. And what is nonsensical about suggesting he drove some equipment over the border into Syria and dug some holes in the ground and put some stuff in the holes. Where did Assad get the WMD we divested him of a few years ago? Regards, TAR I think perhaps you are an ignorant dupe if you think Saddam was not trying to hide stuff from the inspectors.

Daedalus, Sounds like a plan. I figure being dead will be similar to how it was before I was born. Except perhaps the world will have a memory of me having been. Regards, TAR

Overtone, I have a good feeling about my town and my state and my country. And I trust Republicans and the Republican party to do their part in maintaining the government that maintains my way of life. I do not fear the bankers. I write checks all the time and they are always faithfully accepted. I trust my bank. And I trust where my 401K funds are invested, and I now get a small pension every month that I will continue to get, and that my wife will get if I die, that I trust the financial industry to continuing paying me, as was the contract when my company put money into the plan for 33 years. I know there are decent people acting as my fiduciaries. Much more decent than a gang banger. Your definitions of decent and your curse words toward people I count on and trust, are not reasonable. And Bernie's plans are not workable or desirable as far as I am concerned. If I vote against him, it will not be me blocking progress, it will be me maintaining a reasonable, working system. My way of life is not invalid. Regards, TAR

Ten Oz, I didn't mean to disrespect 9/11 victims. I did not mean to insinuate that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. I did however mean to say that Saddam was a threat to our allies in the area, had a strong military, and was an enemy that we were safer to remove, than to allow to stay in power. In retrospect, our siding with the Shia and the Kurds to the hurt of the Sunni helped to build the Al Queda in Iraq and the threat of ISIS that we see today. My link to 9/11 was my awareness of global terrorism and the continuing fact that we are not safe from global terrorism. Maliki had just as much to do with the sectarian violence in Iraq that helped establish Al Queda in Iraq as the U.S. did. And it appears the Saudis may have funded some operations. My thinking about Saddam was not related directly to thinking he was involved in 9/11, my thinking was involved in not knowing who to fight in a situation where a stateless organization like Al Queda, was our enemy. It did not matter if Saddam was involved with Al Queda, he was an enemy in his own right. Even if he had nothing to do with Al Queda. And now there is no doubt that his guard is still our enemy, and probably some of the driving force behind the caliph. I am not sure what good it does to blame us for creating a political vacuum for bringing down Saddam, when the world was closely involved in the elections and the nation building that occurred after the invasion. Maliki and Assad and ISIS had problems with each other that we did not create alone. The Saudis and Iran and Russia and the U.N. all have had their hands in the situation. My statement meant no disrespect to 9/11 victims. I am merely noting that the fight against global terrorism did not end when we got Bin Laden, and currently we are in Iraq, might need to go into Syria, Libya, and Somalia and the list of 7 countries in 5 years might still be places that should be on our radar, to finish the fight against global terrorism, that we owe to the victims of 9/11 and Paris and Mali... Regards, TAR

Overtone, There were many pacifists in the U.S. that did not want to go to war in Iraq. At the time though, there was also tremendous anti Zionist propaganda in circulation. America as the great Satan, It was difficult then and it is difficult now to discern between someone anti American, and someone opposed to presidential policy. Someone wanting to see the U.S. hurt, and someone wanting to solve issues peacefully rather than with bombs.. I still believe we had good reason to go after Saddam's WMD and when we attacked we attacked with gas masks and nerve agent antidotes because we knew he had the capability to use such weapons against us. I wonder why nobody but me considers why Saddam dug a trench around Baghdad and filled it with oil and lit it on fire. My theory is that he destroyed the evidence of WMD like a druggy flushing the stash down the toilet as the police were breaking down the door. And now the civil liberties of the druggy have been breached, because he was innocent, and no drugs were found. I also felt that some things might well have been buried in the sands of Eastern Syria, outside the prevue of U.N. inspectors and coalition military. And while you can characterize the situation as if the world now knows that the invasion was inappropriate, I still feel it was appropriate, and just did not turn out the way I was hoping. The guard was not defeated, and still lives as ISIL. Ten Oz, We did not know then and still do not know now, who is going to try and hurt a Western interest, by blowing themselves up in a square. Desiring to take away the training grounds and the funding for people that want to hurt us, could take us into any country that does not remove the threat on their own, with their own law enforcement, and military. Regards, TAR Overtone, Secrets we need to know we already know. Secrets that we don't need to know, should not be made public so that our enemies know. The way you trust your financial advisor with your social security is the way we need to trust our law enforcement and state department with the security of the nation. Classified stuff is classified for a reason and can not be put out in public. You have to trust the people that are on your side, and keep secrets from those who would use the information against you. What possible good can you imagine would come from Putin knowing our secrets? Regards, TAR

Ten Oz, Right. My theory remains just a guess. Regards, TAR

Ten Oz, But is one conservative because they are old or because they are white, and is one liberal because they are 18 or because they are non-white? in any case if one's political philosophy is determined by who they are, then it can not be evil to have a certain political philosophy, it is instead determined by who you are. Such would demand that we accept others for who they are and work with them, in terms of their needs, vision of the world, desires, and will. The country should work for everybody, and not at the expense of anybody. Overtone, You have continually spoken against a group of people in a negative fashion, which is against the rules of the forum. I suggest that it is also the biggest problem with America, that you speak negatively against old white males, who as a group are actually a large part of the strength of the nation, As a socialist, you would probably be for a redistribution of the wealth accumulated by a white, middle class, male that lives in the suburbs. Well that describes me, and I have college loans to pay off, and a mortgage to pay off and will pay taxes into the system when I withdraw my 401 earnings. I have already done my part, paid my social security, paid my taxes, followed the law, served in the military, donated to charity, volunteered in the town, helped the beggar on the street. I have no job right now and can not collect unemployment because I quit my job. I have not earned your scorn, yet I have it, by virtue of being who I am. You are prejudice against people who voted for Bush. You fail to notice that we are your fellow Americans and have as much right to be ourselves as you do. Regards, TAR

But so far SA does not seem to mirror our suicide statistics here. It seems a mess after the end of apartheid, but a mess of a different color than whatever is causing the feelings of hopelessness, sadness and loss of control over here. http://leadsa.co.za/?p=18098 4. South African research found that 23.6% of teens are struggling with feelings of hopelessness and sadness 5. Teens are likely to be more impulsive when dealing with suicidal thought or behaviours 6. Research noted that more female teens commit suicide than males (Prof. L Schlebusch) right, not even in the vicinity

No breakdown here to indicate white males . But some of the same increase in males and in children is reported in SA, ​http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/sa-s-shocking-suicide-statistics-1.221741 another article talked about high police suicides in SA but it specified black and Indian constables

Ten Oz, We can not be the world's policeman, but we have relations with just about everybody and do business with just about everybody and support humanitarian efforts just about in all the third world countries and basically can be counted on in most U.N, efforts. The U,N, sticks its nose in sovereign country's affairs, as in Iraq and Iran and Syria, and our nose is usually firmly attached to the business end of that particular nose. Some times we go unilateral or with a coalition of the willing, but the effort to rid Saddam of WMDs was international.as is the effort to keep Iran without weapon grade Uranium. The big intrusions into Afghanistan and into Iraq came after 9/11. We had not had our nation attacked in such a way, since Pearl Harbor, and we went all in to interfere with Japan's internal affairs. After 9/11 we did not know who was our enemy as Bin Laden did not have a state. We went after the Taliban, who was protecting him. Our enemy was global terrorism, stateless terrorism and it took us to the 7 country in 5 years plan. We were and are allies of Israel and people that would bomb Israel were our enemies as surely as people that would bomb us, were our enemies. Saddam had the largest army in the area and Bush's father had already fought him out of Kuwait. He had already lit the wells on fire, we had already bombed his guard on the road out of Kuwait. We already had Saddam and the guard as our enemy and we did not trust he had not hidden WMDs, we had no fly zones and had sanctions against him as the Western World, long before we went in after him. Every step of the way, I thought we were acting appropriately. I do not think of it as a big mistake, to give Iraq the chance to be a secular, democratic nation, ruled by Sunni and Shia and Kurd. And the war against global terrorism is not yet won. If it takes us into Syria and Libya and Somalia and a couple other African nations, I would not be surprised. Iran has the choice to continue to fund our and Israel's enemies. The Saudis have the choice to fund ISIS and Al Queda or not. Regards, TAR

Ten Oz, Not counter, substantiates. In all the elections you showed other than ones involving Clinton and Gore the republican got the older vote and the democrat got the younger vote. As I individually aged I went from liberal to independent to conservative. I am thinking it not impossible that the same progression happens to others as they age and accept more responsibility, accumulate more wealth and learn more about the world and what is workable and what should be maintained. Much like the quote from Mark Twain. And the statistics also substantiate the idea that people change, not just the demographics. Looking at the elections from '96 to '12 liberals went from 19 to 25% where democrats went from 40 to 38% and moderates went from 47 to 41% and democrats went from 40 to 38% independents went from 22 to 29 percent and republicans went from 35 to 32 percent. Here where age and sex and race are somewhat predicable, one]s political philosophy can change as you grow or can change as your life situation changes, and the planks in various candidates platform change. Regards, TAR and moderates hold the swing vote in all elections as neither liberal nor conservative have the numbers to win a plurality let me rephrase '96,'00,'04,'08,'12 Liberal 19,20,21,22,25 Moderate 47,50,46,44,41 Conservative 34,29,34,34,35 Democrat 40,39,37,39,38 Independent 22,26,26,29,29 Republican 35,35,37,32,32

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Mark Twain​

.Ten Oz, I am not ​​accepting that Iraq was a mistake, nor that removing Saddam caused ISIS. If failure to pursue the 7 country in 5 years plan resulted in years of civil war in Syria and the destabilization of the area, then the mistake was not pursuing the 7 country in 5 years plan. And I don't have the links, but my "feeling" during the Arab Spring, was that our state department and Hilary were instigators. If this is true, then what we could have done to stop the Arab Spring, would have been to not cheer lead for it. It is difficult to be conflicted as a country and be strong allies with countries who's human rights and women rights track record is lousy. When a country's youth take over though, everything established, whether corrupt or not, is forfeit. You don't have the corrupt inspectors anymore, but you don't have the garbage collection either. As in the WikiLeaks link we have played various forces against each other to forward our agenda. We are not the only clever people on the planet however and such is done by the Russians and the Iranians and the Saudis and the Jews and the Palestinians as well. Part of this whole mess is the politics and the spins and the propaganda, and the mischaracterizations of your enemy's intentions and actions. I did not, at the time for instance think it was a bad idea to invade Iraq and remove Saddam. I was quite for it. And I did not, at the time think it was a bad idea to foster the Arab Spring, I was quite for it. Being that we are still living in the wake of these decisions, and the game is still on, I am loathe to call the U.S. the bad guy in either situation. I still see things from the perspective of my way of life being preferable over the way of life of ISIS. And whatever our mistakes, it was never a mistake to stand with our friends against our enemies, nor to side with the Shia against Saddam, nor to have earlier sided with a more secular Saddam against a more Sectarian Iran. Regards, TAR And the poppy being the cash crop of Afghanistan is not something we have a lot of control over. in any case American culture art sports medicine and technology has infected many cultures and represents outshoots of my way of life I am in no way apologizing for our way of life. I think it fine and workable, and applicable to anybody and everybody that wants to live a good life. Western civilization was a good idea. It is not a mistake to toe the line, and fight for its continuance.

Ten Oz, You pick out just the white black hispanic numbers and the change in those demographics as if all whites vote republican and all blacks vote democrat and if you just follow these numbers you can predict election results. How about income? If people are poorer they will vote more heavily democrat. Or if people get older they will vote more heavily for the republican. I don't like your demographic way of looking at things because it would predict that a high birth rate among blacks and Hispanics, and an decrease in household income for everybody, would insure that the democrats would be elected all the time. The last two elections showed gains in the house and the senate for the republicans. This had more to do with the direction the country was going in, than with demographics. One of the criteria your statistics showed was liberal moderate conservative. These blocks change from election to election. Personally, I change from election to election and voted for Carter and for Bush. If you look through the years you will see these numbers, of liberal and conservative and moderate change and depending on the issues and direction of the country more of the various group will be energized and come out to vote, and depending on the issues moderates do indeed hold the swing vote. And moderates come in all shapes and sizes. I remember when I was in college I campaigned for McGovern in New Hampshire. I also remember as he did well in New Hampshire and became more mainstream he shifted toward the center in his speeches. I believe that to win the election, a party's platform needs to move toward a position everybody can agree with. Otherwise the moderates go the other direction. For instance Bernie does not have a chance to win the general election because he is too socialist. Unless he wins the primary and moves toward the center to attract the moderates. And there had to be whites who voted for Obama. Regards, TAR Anecdotally someone in my profile picture, a democrat, told me that they hated trump, disliked Hilary and that Bernie was too socialist. Who is this person going to vote for in the election? Would you be able to tell if I told you the person's sex, age and income level? Or perhaps can a person pull the lever, or stay home, for any personal reasons, regardless of their demographics. in the last local election I voted for two republican councilmen and not a third on the ticket and voted to re-elect a democratic female mayor. How could my demographics predict that behavior? And the two councilmen I voted for won, and the one I didn't vote for lost, and the Mayor was re-elected. In addition, I have been known to not vote party line in general elections, and to vote for house and senate representatives that were good, regardless of their party. In fact, I like it better, and think we are governed better, when the president does not control his own congress. or her

Overtone, I have my feelings about WikiLeaks and Snowden, and secret stuff is secret for a reason. Our enemies do not need to know our capabilities and intentions. Anytime, for any reason. But thank you for that link with Wesley Clark, talking about the U.S. desire to take down 7 countries in 5 years. Some of that plan is still in the works. The wiki article on the Syrian civil war, has it starting in earnest in 2011. Whether the Obama administration was trying to engage Assad or remove Assad, by overt action or secret funding is not as important as that U.S. actions in regards to Assad and in regards to funding opposition indicate that the U.S. is still interested in regime change in Syria and the way we have gone about it, in the last 6 years has not had good outcome. 250 thousand deaths, millions of refugees and the rise of ISIS does not point to us having handled fighting the fire in the most effective way. Regardless of who set the course, regardless of who we view as friends and who we view as enemies the proxy war aspect of the situation, does not make either the U.S. or any one of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia or Iraq innocent of fanning the flames. Willie71, My suggestion is to admit we screwed up and help Assad regain control of his country and oust ISIS, regardless of ISIS being funded by friends and Hezbolah being funded by enemies. Continue to stand with our allies, and not let the Kurds or any opposition groups get decimated by Assad. Or carry out the 7 country in 5 years plan. Regards, TAR

Ten Oz, But if demographics decide who votes for the democrat and who votes for the republican, then who votes for independant candidates, and why do people cross party and vote for the other gal or guy? AND if a certain percentage of each of the criteria wind up voting for the democrats or wind up voting for the republican then turnout of those people is what decides an election. And the criteria are not mutually exclusive, and you can have an old rich black women, and a young poor white female factory worker from the south and you don't know whether they are going to vote like they are rich or black or female or union or conservative or what, nor which of the obvious directions the candidates are heading sooths their worst fears and solves their biggest problems, and fires up their most powerful hopes. When Obama won everyone was fired up because they were voting for change. Nobody specified what changes they were actually voting for. Was just hearing that Black America has lost in almost every economic category in the last 10 years. Your metrics would suggest that poor blacks are liable to vote for the Democrat. If more have gotten poor than there were 10 years ago, then more are liable to vote for the democrat. Regardless of the fact that there has been a Democrat in the White House for the last 7 years. Regards, TAR

In this case the idea of ISIS is that the West is the Great Satan. The idea of the West is that international terrorism is the greatest evil we have to face down. Not being afraid is not the solution. Being afraid to win however, could be really bad for the West. Overtone, Hum. I seem to remember the U.S. being on the side of the moderate Rebels in Syria, and in favor of regime change. And Iraq was more stable after we defeated Saddam, than it is now. Regards, TAR And I don't think Bush caused the drought.

ISIS as an idea is not sustainable to live in concert with the ideas of France and the U.S. constitution. You defeat the idea by not letting it win and by not letting your own ideas fail. You make your idea work, and make the ideas of your enemies not work.

Hitler and Imperial Japan were defeatable. Saddam was defeatable. ISIS, just the J.V. team is defeatable. We have defeated enemies far more powerful than ISIS.

Dimreepr, I was not considering that revenge was inorder. I was considering that defeating ISIS was in order. That is, track down the killer shark and kill it, before it struck again. We had a fatal black bear attack in West Milford. The first in recorded history in New Jersey. The police approaching the scene tried to get the bear to leave the area but it kept circling the dead partially eaten body, so they had to shoot it. Not for revenge, but because the bear had tasted human flesh and would not leave the body alone. We had our annual bear hunt before Christmas and many bears were killed. To reduce the population and stem the increase in people bear run ins. Black bear are seen around my house, even after that bear was killed. Which of "my bear" that are not around come the spring, remains to be seen. I am not terrified of the bear. But I am in favor of the hunt. Regards, TAR

How exactly does that get the world trade center back or regenerate the lives lost in the Paris theatre? Ignoring the threat of ISIS for instance and thinking of them as the J.V. team, not to be terrified by, and easily defeated, did not stem global terrorism.​