tar

SwansonT, So what direction is the rider's momentum carrying him in, if the turn would be a hairpin one and the road would start turning to the West and wind up heading South? Northern momentum would pull him first to the right and increasingly to the right as he got further into the turn. As the Northern momentum was redirected to the West, the Western momentum would be redirected to the South as the rider's lean and the friction of the tires conspired to change the direction of the momentum of the moving mass of bike and rider. Radially outward would be the direction the bike and rider would want to go if the rider was in the barrel at the county fair. This radially outward force would allow the bike and rider to ride up the wall against the acceleration of gravity. Regards, TAR SwansonT, Once, before I hurt my knee, during the summer between my 11th and 12th grade years, I ran in a field behind the highschool at world class speed. I had been second fastest in my 11th grade class, and ran faster than I had ever run before, by considering that a body in motion tended to stay in motion, unless acted upon by an outside force. I started sprinting and once I had established my normal top speed, I kept my stride and increased the pace of my footfalls just a bit. Once I gained the new momentum, I increased my stride a bit by concentrating on the push as the ball of my foot hit the ground. As I reached a new speed by increasing my stride, I ran faster again by maintaining the stride, but increasing the pace of my footfalls. I was flying along so fast I thought I would hurt myself if I fell, and I started to run out of good field, and got into an area that was a little rougher and less well kept than the playing fields, so I slowed to a stop. I asked myself why I could not use this technique to run faster than everybody else on the track. The answer was, because the technique only works in a straight line. Tracks turn. The momentum you can add to, while running in a straight line is your friend. On a track you have to use strength and energy to turn your momentum to the left. The technique does not work on a track.

Mike, I am breaking my rule by responding to a thread I have not read, so I apologize for any break in continuity. I wanted to add that esoteric, in my book, is basically what the uninitiated think about the stuff the initiated talk about. When you think of the vocabulary of doctors, for instance, the greek and latin names for simple, understandable stuff, makes for the possibility that a laymen would consider the doctorspeak, esoteric. In reference to this thread topic, nobody here is uninitiated when it comes to communication with the universe. We all have seen the thing in operation for our entire lives. You and I Mike, have been around the place for 60 and 70 years, respectively. You and I both ran the experiment the same day, at the same time and we both got answers. I do not think that it makes any sense that a more advanced lifeform is watching and listening and answering when we ask. My take is more along the lines of what you were saying about memories, and deep seated realizations that are part of us, just from having seen the thing in operation for 60 or 70 years. It might turn out that we ourselves are the advanced lifeform that is observing the place. Regards, TAR

SomeChickOnTheInternet, You just gave me another of the hundred things that make you feel good. Being an inspiration for some chick on the internet. I am sure Phi and Spyman got a little dopamine boost from your post, as well. There really are 100 ways to get dopamine that are inexpensive to free, and do little harm to anybody, or anything. And from my experience the dopamine I get from looking at your pretty face and knowing I was a little help to you is the exact same dopamine I would have gotten by having nicotine receptors in my brain release it. This dopamine is better though, because its real, and it is being released for good reason, unlike the general no reason "feel good" that a drag on a cigarette would bring. Good luck to you in any case. One of these mornings you won't smoke for a year. And I promise you will still get plenty of dopamine every time you see a pretty sky, or see a handsome body, or rescue someone in trouble, or share your milkshake with your hubbie, or win a game of solataire, or clear the jam in the copier at work. There are at least a 100 ways to feel good. You don't need to get your dopamine from nicotine receptors. There are better ways to get it. Much better ways. Besides, you've got your mortar all mixed and you are ready to board that window up with Phi, not an option, bricks. Its really just as easy as deciding you don't smoke anymore...ever. Regards, TAR Thanks for the dopamine fix SomeChickOnTheInternet.

Thread, Found another interesting figure. When rolling clay between your palms to make a sphere you keep "turning" the ball to flatten the high sides. If you don't turn the clay and just keep the palms going in that circular motion, you wind up with two flat cones attached at their bases. Dividing each of the cones into three sections opposite the three sections of the other cone, and making a thumb print in the center of each section as a guide, you can flatten each side with a thumb print at its center, and you wind up with a monoclinique or a parallelepiped or something or rather that is a cross between a cube and hexagonal figure, once you mark it into the 12 sections with the internal 90 degree and 120 degree angles. I call it a squex (cross between a squished cube and a hexagonal figure) but I am sure it has a real name. Still like the thought because it is so close to both a cube and to the two connected cones, that one can see the relationship between the two dimensionally flat surface of a cone and the three dimensionally flat surface of a sphere. And the diamond shape shows its relationship to the square when the surface is tilted. Regards, TAR

Thread, So with the motorcycle going North and the road turns left the cyclist leans left to put the bike between him and the direction his momentum is taking him. There is, as everybody is saying, no force pulling him East, but the force pulling him North, his momentum, his inertia, becomes a force to his right, as soon as he points the bike a little left of North. The Northward force becomes a force to the right. Once he is headed West the Northward momentum he is carrying that is pushing the tire into the pavement is overcome by the solid friction with the road, and the momentum that was heading North, is redirected to the West. If there is gravel on the road, or ice as in the example, the bike and rider will not be able to redirect the momentum to the West, and the bike and rider will continue in a Northern direction, which will be 90 degrees to the right of West, or radially outward from the center of the turn. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, Well the force that got the kid moving in the circle was the other kids applying a tangential push to the outside perimeter of the merry-go-round, overcoming the inertia of the device and the kid. The kid holding on is what keeps the kid from flying tangentially off the thing. If the kid started in the middle the "pull", even after everybody stops pushing, is toward the outside of the device. The kid (me in this memory) slides radially outward, in reference to the device, as his strength gives out and he pleads with the pushers to slow the thing down so he doesn't go flying off and get hurt. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, But 1/4 of the period of rotation later, a line normal to a radial line becomes parallel to the radial line drawn either 1/4 period earlier or later. And indistiguishable, direction wise, from a radial line, In a static discription of the direction the object on a carosel travels, a vector can be considered tangent to the circle traveled and another pointing radially inward, adding up to the circle traveled. The forces acting on the body, like the friction of the seat of the pants against the carosel and the mechanical stress on the muscles of the kid and the friction of hand against steel keep the kid from flying off the thing. Whether she lets go at a particular moment and flies off tangentially or continues to fight the force that is pulling her radially outward only determines whether she stays on, or flies off. It does not make the fact that she is being pulled radially outward, false. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, Well if you cannot have a line tangent to a point, how about a really really tiny circle? Would not the tangent line drawn from a tiny circle be indistinquishable from a line drawn radially outward from the tiny circle? Regards, TAR

SwansonT, Just tried to draw a straight line that would take me tangent to a point. It looked exactly like radially outward. When you are at the center of the merry-go-round, the only way to go is radially outward. Or at the North Pole. If you draw a straight line tangent to a point, it IS a line going radially outward. Regards, TAR

Thread, Here are six shapes that each divide into twelve identical sections with the same internal angles. A segment from one can be interchanged with a segment from another. The blob on the right is a Spherical Rhombic Dodecahedron surrounded by a rounded Cuboctahedron. The pattern of the edges of the Cuboctahedron describe the 4 intersecting hexagonal planes described earlier. The fourpoints of the Cuboctahedron center exactly on the center of the Spherical Rhombic Dodecahedron diamonds, and represent the "Xs" through the diamonds, along which the 360 degree coordinates of the TAR degree scheme are measured. The wire figure on the left is a 2 foot long copper wire, bent at the inch marks, describing the four intersecting hexagonal planes of the cuboctahedron. Regards, TAR

Spyman, I sort of get Swansont's explanation in #5 and #7, but the choice of coordinates to look at the thing from an inertial frame, seems somewhat ignorant of the reality of the motions and accelerations that cause the "force" in the first place. The two components that confuse me the most about this are what is a straight line, and what is an outside force. In imagining what is happening to a spot on the Earth, and what forces are being applied to it, what are outside forces and what are fictitious forces, it is difficult to ignore the "reasons" and the mechanisms that cause a thing to move this way or that. There are certain realities that cause one to be ejected from the merry-go-round. That "force" one to the outside. These same reasons, albeit because you are in an accelerated frame, are evident and present when you are a ton of stuff on the equator, as opposed to a ton of stuff on the pole. As a ton of stuff on the pole, you are clinging tightly to the center of the roundabout, where it is "easier" to oppose the outward pull. On the equator, you are hanging off the outside of the thing. Regards, TAR

Thread, So if a ton of stuff wheighs 1998 pounds on the equator and 2000 pounds on the North Pole, is it not a real force lifting the ton off the scale a little, on the equator, due to the spin of the Earthly carosel? Regards, TAR

Phi, I threw my hands up in the victory V, forgetting I am still getting over a frozen shoulder. The crowd made sort of the sound they make when the outfielder, going back for the ball, runs into the wall. I am not sure the cocktail was made with the recipe you had in mind.

Spyman, Coming up on a year since I quit smoking. Had my last cigarette on Sunday, April 6th 2014. Since then, my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer, my dad had a fall, had brain surgery and spent 4 months between hospital and rehab center, two months ago I quit my job and I have, like you gained some wheight, gained 20lbs...but I have not smoked. I would like to thank everybody that has supported me in this endeavor to quit. Grace Grumpy said at the beginning, that the nicotine tapering method had a 35% success rate, after a year. Looks like I am one of the 1 out of three where it works. I would like to think, that combining the nicotine tapering, with my Saturday morning "put it down" routine and your logic and will power, and Phi's "not an option" thinking, and the 100 other "real" ways to feel good and have dopamine released in your brain, that don't cost so much in terms of health, money, time, clean air and independance, as smoking costs, increases the odds of success of the nicotine tapering method significantly. Judging by my sample group of one (me), I would say success is running right close to 100%. Regards, TAR Now its just a matter of burning more calories than I intake, doing a few toe touch excercises, and concentrating on the 100 things that make you feel good, without high costs.

Thread, Got it. Actually it has a dual that might work too, but I have not tried that yet. The Truncated Octahedron divides nicely into the same 12 segments we have been talking about here, with the same internal angles, so you can interchange segments from one, with segments from another. You slice the six squares from the center of a sqare orthogonally to an edge, through to the center of the adjoining hexagon. So the center of each of the 8 hexagons is a threepoint, and the center of each of the 6 squares is a four point. Same exact arrangement as the spherical rombic dodecahedron, the cube, the tetrahedron, the octahedron, and the cuboctahedron. All six can be cut into the 12 Janus like sections of the Spherical Rhombic Dodecahedron. Lots of nice hexagons in the Truncated Octahedron, as well. The dual to the Truncated Octahedron is the Tetrakis Hexahedron. Have not built that one yet, but it looks promising. Might replace the 12 segment tetrahedron, that has the shield shaped faces, with the Tetrakis Hexahedron, to get my 6 figures that all divide nicely into 12 identical, symmetrical pieces. Regards, TAR

Thread, I don't recall if we noticed this, at the time, but early on in the thread, when we were talking about making a four faceted "jewel" by cutting four faces out of the rounded surface of a Janus, we actually already had the jewel shape, if we would have cut a cubic octahedron into 12 identical sections. Just did, just that, over the weekend, and the threepoints are at the center of the triangles of the cubic octahedron, and the fourpoints are at the center of each of the square faces. Same arrangement we have been discussing, with the same internal angles. You can thus now interchange the twelve identical segments of the sphere, with those of the cube, tetrahedron, octahedron, and cubic octahedron. 5 different figures. The Sedge makes 6, but the Sedge segments, I don't think are identical, as is the case with the other 5 figure's segments. I am looking for a 6th figure that divides up into twelve identical shapes, with the same interchangable internal angles as we have been noticing here. Regards, TAR

Gees, The truth, in my estimation, has to fit, and make sense...by definition. By making sense, I am not talking about the world fitting your model of it... that often does not happen, things are not always the way you think they are. By making sense, I am talking about your model of the world being consistent with the facts of the world. Your senses are what brings the world into your model of it. Your sight, your sense of smell, your sense of touch, your inner ear, "truing you up" to the center of the Earth, your sense of taste telling you whether the thing you put in your mouth was food or poison, sweet, savory or bitter or sour. Your skin telling you whether it is hot or cold, hard or soft, sharp or smooth, dry or wet. Things do not have to be right, to be true. Being right, is when the world matches your model. Being true is when your model matches the world. And some philosopher once said, and I think it very pertanent to this discussion, that you know something is true, when it is true in more than one way. Regards, TAR If the Earthquake swallows your car, you are no longer driving on the road.

All the cars white? Does seem like there is likely a one size fits all situation that will evolve with driverless cars. That is, speed and power and size will likely be within certain tight ranges, as to not cause mis-matches on the road. And each will have a "best practices" type of programming for each situation, that will be governed by some standards organization, so there are not rouge vehicals out there, causing inequality or hard feelings. Same batteries, same charging or switch out stations, same everything. Almost, not likely that you will own your own car. Probably just rent a ride, when you need one. Call for a car on your app, when you know you have to go to the job interview, tell it your starting point and destination, and when you figure to return and "the system" will figure out how to get a vehical in position. Might have to be prepared to ride share. Still doesn't fit my likes and desires. I have driven near a million miles over my life, what with relatives in different states, and a field rep job at one point, and vacations. And part of the joy of driving is getting there yourself. I alway felt proud to get my family safely and comfortably from NJ to West Virginia, to Alanta and home, along with the gifts. A feeling of accomplishment, to know the way, and a good feeling to see all the houses and trees and roads and wires on the way. The routes have become part of my model of the world. My "neighborhood" is bigger now that my daughter is at VT. A trip down to see her would not be as personally under my control, if I took a bus, or hired a ride. And automated stuff just switches the expertise, and the know how, and the responsibility and the control to someone else. I would still have to pay for it all, and not get any of the intrinsic reward of doing it myself. And most importantly, I would most probably not be allowed to drive myself in a manually controlled car, if I wanted. And decisions on how much I could travel and such might be made by the system. I would hate that. Regards, TAR And how is a teenage couple going to find a place to "park"?

Endy0816, Packet routing can send a packet going to the same destination through a different route than another packet in the message, to get reassembled in the right order at the other end. I don't think people and birthday cakes would reassemble very well at the destination. Besides, people chose how important it is to get ahead of the next guy, and what risks they are willing to take in the appropriate situations. I have a rule that I never drive over 7 miles an hour over the speed limit on the highway. I can be driving 70 in a 65 and someone will go flying by me at 80 or 90. Often its an Audi or Mercedes, as the owners of those vehicals seem to believe our highways should be driven as if they are Autobahns with only the speed limit of the car to be considered. But automated vehicals would have to drive 65, thus bogging down the highway for the aggressive driver that needs to get to the job interview. When I am on the road, I often see a heavy truck, speeding toward an uphill climb to get as much momentum as possible, and I move to the right to let him pass. I then pass him on the hill. This kind of behavior may or may not be programmed into the car driving across country on March 22nd. I wonder what kind of road etiquite is programmed into the vehical. And if some kid has painted a 55 mile an hour sign into an 88 mile an hour sign, will the vehical go 88. And if a police officer attempts to pull the car over, will it obey the sirens and lights? Can it show license and registration? Who will be responsible if it causes a fatal accident? Will it be escorted? Will it be remote controlled? Is it gas powered or electric? What if it runs out of gas, or can not find an outlet? Does it have robotics to plug itself in, or does it need human assistance? Regards, TAR Just wondering how the Delphi car will respond to road rage situations. Or if it gets boxed in by trucks. I don't know if its going to be labeled somehow, or escorted somehow, but I personally would be freaked out seeing a vehical proceeding with no driver. Maybe there will be an occupant of the driver's seat, that is not supposed to do anything, but other drivers would still attempt to make eye contact with the gal or guy, to see if its OK to come over into the lane and such. People speed up and slow down to make room or block according to the results of the eye contact and subsequent vehical positioning. If the car is doing one thing and the personal eye contact of the Delphi "driver" is doing another, there may be a misunderstanding, and a possible collision. Most people get used to what a reasonable other person will do on a highway. Nobody knows how a particular automated car is programmed, and how it will respond to different situations. It would be treated like a drunk driver on the road and given a wide berth, most probably. Or maybe people would tease it, and test it, and see if they could outsmart the program.

Imatfaal, In the car chase, many pedestrians had to see the car coming down the sidewalk, and jump out of the way, and several workers had to do the same. Not likely to work out so nicely in a non scripted and correographed sequence. Car chases are of course never actually that long in a crowded city, because somebody is going to be in the way. I am wondering what protective actions automated vehicals would have in reference to the car chase. Would the crash prevention system on the automated car disable the vehical from moving at the start? This would foil both the chased and the chaser. You could not run from trouble, nor catch a trouble maker. Which would mean that the system should be made to be overridden by human judgement when a human's judgement requires manual control. Which in turn creates a situation where some vehicals are in manual and some are in auto, both during the buildup to auto stage, and in the completely auto stage, where humans have the ability to go to manual. And the question would be then, who is allowed to go into manual, in what situations, which would again take the decision out of the hands of the human on the scene, and put it in the hands of the humans making the algorithms and the laws. I would forsee a certain group of people that would prefer to leave the darn thing in manual all the time, so they could do what they wanted, and not be dragged along as a cog in the machine, forced to wait out stupid situations, that will take time to solve by the automated system, that could be solved instantly by just carefully driving through, around, over or backing up with the judgement assistance of the people around you. For instance, how will an automated system warn of its approach? Electric cars are very quiet. A human driver can see the scene in front of her and can tell who is paying attention and is not, who is liable to step out into the street and who is not, who has a pile of packages obstructing their view of the approaching vehical and who does not. A human can issue a warning beep when she sees an accident about to happen. A system would have to beep all the time, any time two objects could potentially occupy the same space. Thus there would be continual beeping which would be ignored as car alarms are ignored. And the wolf crying would negate the avoidance measures required when there IS a wolf after the flock. Also, there is a elite vs. worker element that should be considered. Automated systems take money to develope and implement, and repair. Automated systems require infrastructure as in painted magnetic lines or tracks or courses for the automated vehical to follow. Rich people can buy one, and set up the streets for its use, more easily than the average Joe. Which means there would be unequal access to transportation. Manual cars would not be allowed on certain byways, thus depriving average to poor people of access to those byways. Also, there is a city vs. suburbs vs. rural element that should be considered. Automated systems work better where the course is exactly controlled, which might work in densely populated areas but fail to make sense in a suburban driveway or a farmers field, or a mountain road. What sense does it make to put in a multimillion dollar automated system of tracks and sensors and controls and power strips and and lights and such on a quarter mile dirt driveway, that goes through a creek? Wouldn't it be better to have a vehical you could drive through the creek AND to the store in the mall, and to the show in the city? Regards, TAR Thread, My suggestion is to scrap the automated car idea and build up the infrastructure in highly congested areas, where it makes sense to have automated transport, like airports and heavily traveled arteries into cities. Perhaps elevated tracks, as in the monorail type setups in airports could be constructed on single pole towers down the median strip of existing highways. Personal (pods) could be introduced to the system at stations that could be picked up by frequent "engines" that traveled the track, or the pods could be propelled along by magnetic fields as in a particle accelerator. The pods could be designed to "fit" onto different tracks, or into various chassis that could run on regular roads or off road, or across swamp or water, or latch onto suspended cables or whatever. Pods could be made to carry a person or several people or frieght or both people and frieght. The automation would be in metering the traffic onto the track, rail, cable, or course and keeping it moving at optimum safe speed, and switching each pod onto the desired course. The system would be monitored by humans, who would have facilities to address breakdowns of the system and get people quickly off and onto surface transport, if required. Or something like that. Use automation and technology in carefully controlled and monitored situations, and let me turn my headlights off while the car is running, and let me leave my car unlocked in the garage. Regards, TAR

iNow, Human error, you mean in terms of reflexes, running red lights, miscalculating the closing speed and such? Humans also have the ability to drive hundreds of thousands of miles without hitting anybody or anything, and with the ability to take the needs and desires of the passengers into consideration, as well as taking into consideration the other people on the road. There are any number of intersections where eye contact and turn signals, and waves and nods rule the day. My concern is that automated systems cannot make judgement calls, be polite, slow down around the house that has the old blind cat that wanders out on the road, and automated systems have instant reaction time, which might not be the case for the unautomated vehicals around the automated one, or be safe for the gal inside putting in her contact lenses. Bottom line, an automated system has to be programmed by a human anyway. The human judgement is already built into the automated system. And human error is still a factor, because the human that wrote the program may have forgotten to take something into consideration...like the fact that I don't need or want my car to lock automatically when it is inside my garage, and I would like to be able to open the door even when I don't have my keys. Regards, TAR

Phi for all, When I turn the car on, and it is dark out, the headlights come on, automatically. This however does not cause the tail lights to light. The tail lights only come on if you manually turn the headlights on. So I wind up thinking my lights are on, because I can see my headlights lighting the way. But when I pull in the garage, and go to turn off my lights, the switch is already off. Regards, TAR

Several years ago I heard a woman with a Jaquar complain that sometimes when she went over a significant bump, the car would die (crash safety protection automatically cutting fuel supply) and she would have to pull over, with no power steering, come to a stop with no power brakes, and wait 5 minutes for the system to reset. I often find my car locked when I go to open the back door to put my computer behind the seat. And since it is parked in my garage, I have no need to have it locked, but even if I leave the window open, when I reach in to hit the unlock button it does not function. I have to either put my computer down and get out my keys, or reach in through the window and pull the inside door handle to open the door, reengaging the lock/unlock buttons, so I can unlock the back door to put my computer behind the seat. About once a week (in the winter) I find I have driven all the way home from the convienience store without my lights on. The headlights turn on automatically and I see them in the reflection of the store, so I fail to actually turn the switch on, so I travel home in the dark with no tail lights. There were several incidents in the New York Metropolitan area where cars were struck by trains at crossings where road and rail were on the same level. Individual judgement, and adherence to gates and lights should prevent collisions at these junctions. However there is talk of outfitting trains with automated systems to slow and stop the train should anything be on the tracks ahead. I am thinking, and I started this thread to suggest that such automation could be a bad idea. Kids might put stuff on the tracks, just to see the train stop. Criminals, as in the old West train robberies, could stop a train in a remote area, just by standing on the tracks, board it and take everybody's jewelry and wallets and cell phones. During rutting season a Buck could stand on the track and prevent a train from proceeding. There are some places where cutting human judgement out of the equation is potentially more of a problem than a solution. Back to my car. For a while my daughter's new car had my garage spot and I parked next to the garage, and when I pulled into my driveway and straightened out my lights would shine past the house, over the fence, through my back yard, over a privacy fence and directly into the bedroom windows of a house situated behind ours. I used to be able to turn my lights off once I turned into my driveway and saw it was clear. Now the lights do not go off, until I turn the car off. Automation. Good when it helps. Bad when it takes away individual judgement and control. What do you think?

iNow, Perhaps I should listen to everybody, about my remarks being off topic and not germane to the discussion, but I am thinking that they are not only related but central. Tyranny exists when things are going in directions that you don't like, and have no power to stop. I live in New Jersey, and often call it a "nanny" state. Many laws are in place to keep people from getting hurt that also take away individual responsibility. Like no jumping off cliffs into deep pools made by waterfalls. When it comes to control of ones life, the more that is done for you by the system, the less you have personal control. My thinking is that personal judgement is crucial, not only for the intrinsic value that personal control affords an individual but the additive effect of scores, and thousands and millions, exercising it. There is a reverse tyranny that exists, when the judgement of the system is more highly valued than the judgement of the individual, but it is crucial as well that one trust the judgement of the people in control of the system so one can follow the rules that everybody has signed up, to follow. There are a great deal of wills in this world. 8 billion or so, at the moment. And a great deal of teams and companies and states and societies, secret and public, that have been formed to get things done, to create institutions and maintain them, to make our lives better. Much is controlled by old money and power. Much is controlled by the wheight of the institution itself and its principles and rules...there is a current drift in the business world to follow world class, "best practices" in hiring, project management, big data and customer metrics, inventory control, change management and so forth. The "system" put together by the brightest and the best, the standards boards and cooperative partnerships between competitors, and the boards and leaderships of companies and consultants, takes a certain amount of responsibilty and control, away from the human that should be making the judgment call. Tyranny of the majority, at the expense of individual freedom and control and at the expense of personal responsibility. It is here, that I am investigating the role of the 10 percent. The brightest and the best that consult with the leaders and set the course. Their role is significant. Regards, TAR

Overtone, Perhaps not. I am not quite sure of the dynamics of every age of our country. There were times when being a favorite of the English throne might get you huge swaths of land, as in William Penn. I do not think we are without vestiges of power and wealth from centuries ago. The rule of the Church of England, the Vatican, the ideals of Martin Luther and such still echo in the halls. You mention a lot of countries there, that we may have aided. Cuban revolution with Che Gueverra was sort of our fight, and then not our fight. Communism in our country was villafied for a while, and then there was the Bay of Pigs with Soviet Missles about to be stationed nearby and children, me included drilling by hiding under desks from atomic weapons. And the drugs in central america bring up other questions of who is in control. The Mafia used to be strong, the KKK used to be strong. But we are not exactly the country we were yesterday, and we are a little different than 8 years ago. Our country has been ruled by the Obama Administration for the last 6 years, and still we are both hated and loved by the countries and the peoples that we stand against and assist. Life keeps happening, history keeps occurring and somebody has been, still is, and will be in control. The history can not be ignored. If you talk about a huge capital project, there has to be some capital to commit to it. Which means there has to be somebody who is putting their money on the line. Which means there has to be somebody who HAS money to put on the line. Which means somebody did something to accumulate some wealth, somebody is in possesion of the means of production, somebody is regulating the situation, somebody is in control, and it has something to do, very reasonably, with who was in control yesterday. This was my point to you in the ISIS thread, and I am suggesting it again here, that "our" country is made up of everybody in it. All the good stuff comes from the people in power and all the bad stuff comes from the people in power, and WE have been the people in power for the last 240 years, since the Declaration of Independence. Sometimes that is the majority, sometimes it is special interests, sometimes it is the oligarchy and sometimes it is hollywood, sometimes it is Twitter, and sometimes it is the House and sometimes it is the Senate, and sometimes its the Supreme court and sometimes its the President...but all the time it is us, our history, our ideals, our principles, our laws, our hopes, our way of life, that makes us the country that we are. And our guides, our leaders, from the people who wrote the Constitution, to the Professors on the streets of Berkely, to the people that manned the Manhattan project, to Bill Gates, to Martin Luther King, were the brightest and the best of us. Regards, TAR Overtone, I was thinking last week about secret societies. The "initiated" then control the group, who gets in, who gets helped, who gets the job, who loses the political battle. The same "power" that helps elect the mayor, runs the food drive for the homeless. Most secret societies, as in the kinds of groups our founding father's were part of, were put together and run for the good of society. I am thinking that this benefical use of power is actually important to my thesis. Given the fact that it may well be the 10 percent that rule, it is important that the 10 percent be principled and kept in line by their peers. Regards, TAR Even the Mafia has a code of ethics. I would imagine even the Crypts and the Bloods, have honor and rules and are "run" by the brightest and the best amoung them. Heard a piece on the news this morning about a black fraternity chanting racist lines and nobody in the group standing up to stop it. A former student at the same university and member of the same fraternity spoke of his disgrace, seeing his "brothers" act like that. There is something important in there. Not to be ruled by the majority, but to stand for what is right. Be responsible for all the good stuff, and take responsibilty for stopping the bad stuff. What is that they say? Evil only exists, when good men do nothing. And IF it is the 10 percent that are the most capable and trustworthy, then it is very important that members of the 10 percent do the right thing, work for the good of the team and not calculate their own advantage. I got that idea about working for the good of the team and not calculating your own advantage from the Pingry Honor Code. A document put together by religious white men. The brightest and the best the school had to offer at the time. Actually, I just read the current Pingry honor code, and its sort of a mamby pamby watered down childish version of the initial one I went by. But then again, I went to the school 45 years ago. At that time the code was solid and deep. I think I posted it here in a thread a few years back. Here is the Code I go by. Honor Code Pingry believes that students should understand and live by standards of honorable behavior, which are essentially a matter of attitude and spirit rather than a system of rules and regulations. Decent, self-respecting behavior must be based on personal integrity and genuine concern for others and on the ethical principles which are the basis of civilized society. The members of the Pingry community should conduct themselves in a trustworthy manner that will further the best interests of the school, their class, and any teams or clubs to which they belong. They should act as responsible members of the community, working for the common good rather than solely for personal advantage. They should honor the rights of others, conducting themselves at all times in a moral and decent manner while at Pingry and throughout their lives as citizens of and contributors to the larger community of the world. Authored by Pingry students, 1926 Adopted by Pingry faculty, 1949 Revised, 1988 The Pingry site actually shows the plaque I read in school which has terms like "gentlemanly behavior" that were taken out in '88 since the school is now coed.