The Clairvoyant

1. No it hasn't 2. You little joker ! 3. No, I don't. The thread asks for what is your favourite proof. I've said what it is, a few haven't agreed and have tried to disprove it with responses littered with 'coulds', 'woulds' and 'if's'. 4. If you don't agree then it is up to you disprove it, but you can't, and probably never will be able to in our lifetime. Therefore, no need to keep wasting your time really. This thread could be just a few posts long, but some of you just have to try and disprove those replying to the actual thread title ! Go for it, but let's face it you won't be able to ! Purple unicorns and fairies blah, blah, blah, yawn, yawn, yawn. Not one adult of the Earths population believe in them (well, maybe one or two) but most of the population do believe in something. "God" is a very popular something. Don't use the daft Unicorns and Fairies analogy as it gives scientists a bad name. It makes it appear that your tunnel visioned and have a closed mind. I get it, you don't. Why's that ? I understand all this, but my favourite proof is that 'there hasn't been enough time' . It may well be 'highly likely' but not in the timespan !

With respect it seems very compelling considering none of them has been able to disprove my point.

So we can create it in the laboratory ? Could God have done something similar ?! It sounds more plausible to me than a multitude of extremely unlikely events happening in a relatively short timespan. It's much more likely given how it easy it seems to be !

Do you honestly believe that ? A very, very slim chance IMO. 14 billion years since the Big Bang, with life on this planet only for the last 4 billion. We've only evolved enough to be able to string a few sentences together in the last few thousand. So it took 10 billion years for life to even appear. Another 4 billion for it to evolve into intelligent life. If it took 10 billion years to even get the right mix to spark it off. Then 4 billion is nowhere near long enough for it to even survive in the first instance and then manage evolve. Lets imagine one cell (or a whole load of them) sparks into life, then die, 1 microsecond after they're produced. Then it's back to square one (i.e wait another 10 billion years or so for the spark to happen again). You may argue that it took 10 billion years for the conditions to become right and all it needed then was a spark (from somewhere, and as of yet only guessed at). Fair enough, but even if that did happen, then they've still got to survive. And even if they did manage to survive, then they've still got to evolve to where we are today. Isn't it just much more likely that that something we can't explain (bearing in mind there's plenty of things we can't explain), just designed and created 'everything' for another reason we can't explain ?

The idea that everything you have suggested is random is not true, your disbelief is directed at a straw-man. No one is asserting life, or intellegence, came to be by randomness so your disbelief is misplaced at best and at worst an attempt to mislead but of course you are welcome to believe what ever it takes to float your boat... neither belief nor disbelief has ever changed reality... Of course you are right Moontanman (re:randomness, not on my misleading which you have assumed and come to the wrong conclusion ) but even given that, do you really feel that there's been enough time to get us to where we are now ? The random events needed are just too random. Can we prove mathematically that there's been enough time ? I'm sure somebody somewhere has tried and worked out some sort of probability. I'd say there was 0.000000(and as many noughts as you'd like) 0001% that there was enough time. If someone can get me up to even a 0.1% chance then i'd happily say "you've 'got me there" ! I'm saying that this is my favourite 'proof' that God exists, if you disagree then I put it to you to prove me wrong !

If given eternity a monkey can re-create the complete works of Shakespeare on a type writer or so that's the theory. Daft theory really. Why a monkey ? Why not a snail ? Or an amoeba ? And why a type writer ? Given eternity surely an amoeba can re-create the entire works of Shakespeare in 57 languages (58 including amoeba speak) using the entire mettalic remnants of James Bonds Aston Martin. Even given eternity, I don't believe the monkey could recreate Shakespeare and therefore neither could the amoeba. In the same vein, I don't believe that the elements could have come together in such a way to allow intelligent life (whatever life is) within a relatively short few thousand billion years (compared to eternity). I evolved from being space dust to typing on this computer ! The chances of that happening must be similar to that as the monkey or amoeba theory and they got eternity (the little cheats) not a few, measly billion years ! Therefore, it seems much more plausible to me that we were created, because the restrictions of the time since the Big Bang surely would not be enough to evolve us from space dust to intelligent(ish) human life. Do the non-God believers really think it was enough time to turn us from lifeless elements into functioning live organic matter ? Therefore, I reckon the probability is that we have a creator and he's told a few people his name is God.

Proves it The Earths ending as depicted in Revelation with lambs, horns, Angels, fire and brimstone and mountains falling into the sea. I think we'd all get down on our knees begging for forgiveness if that happened on Sky News, even Richard Dawkins. Disproves it I don't think human science will ever disprove it, but it may well prove it to be so 'far fetched' with a probability of 0.0 (and a bit) that nobody believes in it anymore apart from a few small pockets of people somewhere on the North Pole. To completely eradicate the theory I believe it would need some extra terrestrial intervention who basically say they've never heard of him and it was they who visited Moses etc all those years ago Proof of which will be stored on their ipods.

I've got an over-active childlike imagination, but would like to put a science-fiction slant on the existence of God. It's not intended as anything blasphemous, so if you feel it might offend please don't read it. However, I hope that somewhere, however fictitious it may be, it marries up and can explain in some daft way the possibility of the existence of a creator within the realms of science. Personally I believe in God as just an existence we can't explain as humans. I believe he or something else created the Big Bang and he created life on Earth and its evolution. Maybe planned or perhaps unplanned and for a reason we can only speculate on. Maybe something like the scenarios below................. 1. The Old Testament is 'probably' made of legends and possibly some myths too, passed down over generations and affected by chinese whispers, exaggeration and personal interpretations of events. 2. The New Testament is based on fact. There was a person called Jesus Christ, whether he was the Son of God is again open to debate Therefore, I think God being an Extra-terrestrial being would explain a lot (just one possible scenario below) : The Big Bang happens. It's not a deliberate act by anyone or anything. It happens because of two known forces of 'nothing' colliding. They are known by us as Good and Evil but really they are just names and the forces are unexplainable (and aren't forces at all really). The two forces disperse, get mixed and try to return to their natural state. In doing so they create an existence called God and an existence called Satan that evolve into existences that become 'aware'. They become the perfect opposite 'aware existences' of the forces of good and evil but are invisible to each others existence. However, as they evolve they become aware of each other. Eventually, they create their physical beings to appear to one another. Why ? Because their 'awareness' of each other makes them curious as to who and whatever they are and what their purpose is, if they have a purpose at all. God understands that the scale of Good and Evil forces must not be tipped towards evil otherwise the Universe that has been created dies. He sees it as a beautiful thing, Satan sees it as something that was a mistake and should be returned to its original nothingness. Therefore God creates as much 'life' as possible on many different planets and tries to ensure that the life is as pure to 'good' as possible. Why does he do this ? Because he knows Satan will try to tip the balance by doing the same. God creates Earth and life on Earth. Satan trys to disrupt and corrupt it. It becomes a battleground and the entire universe centres around it. 1. Gods physical existence protects itself on a perfect world (Heaven). God is able able to secure this world and make it purely good. On Heaven he creates The Garden of Eden which he sees as being a perfect place to experiment with intelligent life. God creates others here from his own existence (angels) to assist him. Satan in opposition trys to infiltrate Heaven and Eden many times and in doing so the force of evil is weakened 2. God searches for a rock orbiting a Star which he believes is more or less perfect to sustain life (as he knows it) 3. God decides to create intelligent life ( which he creates as a visible being thats created from the force of good) on the rock (Earth) by initiating a process of evolution which he can monitor, experiment with and nurture until he finds the exact combination of elements that he needs. 4. Turns the rock into the earth by introducing oxygen to the atmosphere, and adding the minute living organisms of 'Good' to the water (thus creating the heavens and the earth) 5. Allows the living organisms of 'good' to evolve, until they become intelligent 6. Now Earth has evolved and the organisms evolve into intelligent life but in doing so become corruptable by evil. God decides to create Adam from the elements of the dust of the earth and his own spirit to protect the intelligent life and to ensure the intelligent species on Earth remain 'good'. Adam has his own 'spirit' and a 'physical being' (his body). 7. God creates Eve from the DNA in Adams rib to accompany him in his task. God decides to nurture Adam and Eve in Eden until he is sure they are purely good and able to withstand the forces of evil. 8. Before Adam and Eve have evolved into pure good beings, The Garden of Eden eventually gets infiltrated by Satan who corrupts Gods two creations 9. Disappointed with their treachery, weakness or stupidity God expels his creations to Earth but also manages to defeat his weakened enemy, thus temporarily imprisoning him inside the Earth within a place he names Hell. However, as his creations are not quite ready enough they remain corruptable. God therefore has made two mistakes, underestimating Satans power and overestimating the pureness of his creations. 10. Over time his creations become family and then population and then evolve into an intelligent species,mating with the apelike creatures that have evolved on Earth already. Satan finds a way to escape his prison. The mating of the 'pure' humans and the evolved Apes is through the involvement of Satan. Rather than becoming the perfect beings he created them to be, they now become a cross-breed and evolve that way to become humans physically but also corruptable because of the impurity. The more impure they are the easier they are to corrupt. 11. Disturbed by the disappointment of his creations and their evolution God creates the 'flood'. Possibly the Earth climate was out of control by then and created an ice age, the water rose and God destroyed the natural dams keeping the water out of the area documented in the Bible. 12. God starts again, but is unable to rectify the mistakes he has made with his experiments. What's left of the human race remains impure and corruptable. Therefore, he decides to let the now human race to continue to evolve and to only provide guidance in the hope that one day they will evolve to become resistant to evil and become 'purely good'. He decides that only the spirits of the people who are purely good may join him in Heaven when they die and the bad ones are locked out and at the mercy of his enemy Satan. He ensures that the humans know this through various messengers he sends to advise them in the hope that the fear will make them more resistant to evil. 13. He monitors progress for a period and chooses certain people for tasks that help him retain overall power over the human race 14. He continues to lose power as Satans influence over the human race begins to dominate and in one last throw of the dice, decides to intervene and chooses to send part of his spirit to lead the world to salvation. He informs the humans of a king who is coming to save them from evil. He knows that if he fails his weakened, diluted spirit may never recover and The Universe will be destroyed through Evil. 15. God creates Jesus from his own being. 16. God announces the saviour to the world by chosing three kings to spread the word. They follow a light created by God (not a star) that highlights the birthplace. But the kings fail to convince others and let him down. 17. The child Jesus is protected by God until he becomes a man. 18. When he grows into a man, God gives Jesus full power to convince others that they must follow his path otherwise the war versus satan will be lost 19. Jesus convinces many but cannot defeat the power of satan who convinces many that Jesus is false. 20. In a last ditch effort to salvage some sort of victory God decides to allow Jesus to die for all the sins of the people thus negating the power of satan i.e it doesn't matter what evil they do in their human form if they ask for forgiveness their spirit will join him in heaven. Checkmate-nearly. 21. Jesus dies in his human form but is resurrected to confirm he has joined God in heaven 22. Satan has his revenge on Earth by separating the impact of Jesus into different religions who then begin to 'war' with each other for generations in their human form. This is Satans consolation for losing the decisive battle on earth which means he will never be able to destroy the universe. 23. Eventually, God decides that the victory is now complete and humans have evolved enough to know in their spirit what is right and what is wrong even if they do not show it in their human form. Checkmate, evil is now defeated on Earth and his strategy of creating goodness on earth to evolve to be resistant to evil is finally successful. Humans can now evolve to become 'purely good' however long this takes. The Earth becomes a breeding ground for goodness, even if it doesn't appear that way on Earth. 24. God now has the blueprint to spread to all of his other creations across the universe thus ensuring the force of Evil is contained and can never destroy the beauty of the Universe. 25. God decides to destroy the ever weakening evil force within the existence of Satan to ensure that his being can never possibly become a threat again. In doing so, God also destroys the Earth which in turn allows the Universe to exist never to be threatened again. Forever. Simple really. Marries up the creator with evolution and shows that the church doesn't have to disagree with the Darwinists and vice versa. With just a little imagination, they can actually believe in the same thing. So, can you provide a fictitious explanation that marries up the two ? Using the above template, I believe I can provide an answer to life, the earth and everything. You ask it and i'll provide the answer !

That's not answering the question, it's just giving advice (albeit poor advice seeing as a/ I hardly read any science fiction and b/ i'm as close to the milky way as you are ! ) To get to a stage where we eventually do travel at light speed what stages are needed 'on the way' to discovering how to do it ? What stage do you all think we're currently at ? Surely, scientists 'somewhere' are working on this project as this is surely the next big step for mankind ?

Show me where I suggested this. I never said suggested anything of the sort. What I did suggest was that your 'likely cockroach scenario' was in fact unlikely. Ghosts were not mentioned at all as an explanation. There you go again. Please read it through before you type. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged Nobody said it was.

Strewth man, there you go again. You just can't help yourself. Read it through before you type, nobody is asking that much from you. There was, you were being a smart arse. Really ? Surely not. A cockroach carries a plate 'at speed' for approx. a foot ? No way, that is not likely at all and if it were 'big enough' to do that then you'd see the darned thing. With a smart arse response, how did you expect him to respond ? If he's going to continue getting daft smart arse responses I doubt that he's that bothered. It's a good interesting, topic and I for one would like to hear more. I'd also like to hear more if you have experienced something unexplained but then later gone on to explain it.

It's a good point. There's really no need for it and their time and energy would be better spent elsewhere. To answer your 'ghost' experience I think you can break it into 3 1. An event that as yet is unexplained by science 2. A natural event that could currently be explained by science if someone were to do a thorough investigation of your house 3. A spiritual event that might never be explained by science Could it be explained by science. Probably, but maybe not yet. What would one of the scientists on here make of it if it happened to them ? Would it scare the sh*t out of them or would they just put it down to something unexplained and not be frightened by it in the slightest ?

I think everyone is baffled by the suicidal cows at the moment http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1209638/Scientists-baffled-suicidal-cows-throw-cliff-Switzerland.html Surely this can't be explained only guessed at ?

I never thought it was an empty one, just that the mathematics might be stifling the awareness of the spark. Once again, I do get your point. But without you discovering that the apple will fall to the ground and not fly up to the sky the mathematics would be useless wouldn't it ? a/ You discover the spark b/ You develop it through mathematics My thoughts are that if your brain is too focussed on other stuff the ability for it to be primed for being aware of the spark is reduced or stifled somewhat. That's it really, this is what i'm getting my head around at the moment. I do understand your point and hope that you now understand mine. It's for another thread really where somebody could explain to me a little more about how the human brain works at its most efficient within the field of science and discovery. I'm not convinced (yet)that the use of mathematics is the 'be all and end all', the openess of the brain to the discovery is surely just as important. How many easy flukes/sparks are missed because the brain is absorbed elsewhere in the detail of mathematics ?

Yes, I do understand that this seems to be the viewpoint of scientists on this board. At the moment I understand but don't necessarily agree I don't think this is the ONLY way. An idea can create something without the need for mathematics (elsewhere i've used the example of 'the wheel'). However I do take on board the comments about understanding how science has evolved will save me time in the future. It's a difficult one for me. I do understand where you're all coming from and the consistency and passion in your responses convinces me that you truly believe in what you are saying and that you genuinely believe you are helping me by being so forceful. On the other hand i'm steadily building a picture in mind that scientists seem to be bogged down in theory and resistant to the fact that an open mind can allow the spark (or the 'fluke' as it was called elsewhere). Does your mind allow the spark when you are bogged down in theory ? I'd be interested as to what everyone thinks about that and may start a thread on it after i've lurked the forum a bit more as I don't want this thread to go off on a tangent. I'll let you all get on with it now !