antiNarcism

No particles of any mass are lost. Energy of any human nuclear technology (except isolated particle/antiparticle Annihilation in advanced accelerators) exploits the higher nuclear binding energy at either end of the periodic table. You are doing science a disservice by polluting this forum with your ignorance. The hypothisis that you are a nuclear industry spindoctor whether you are aware of it or not, is far from disproved

1.5 x 10^-10J is the energy you'd get if you converted just one nuclear particle (p,n) entirely to energy.

E=mc^2 sir 5 MeV = 8 x 10 –13J (energy of 1 u238 alpha emission) do your math From refined.

Mature U238 that has reached its final equilibrium will have 6 beta decays and 7 alpha decays in the period of time it takes for one 238 alpha decay.

DV8 can you take one of your radiation sensors and give me a reading at, say, 20mm from a block of DU a couple mths old plus. It would be even more helpful if you could break this into gamma and beta components. Large block radiation should be relatively constant per surface area. Can't figure why its so hard to find.

Oh dear. Look DV8 this is very simple decay physics and Tom has got it right. You can build a simple model to clarify the picture in your head. 1.)take half a dozen buckets, each is going to represent an element in the decay series, label them as such. 2.) put a hole in each bucket, hole size relative to the inverse of the half life. The flow rate will represent our decay events at each stage. 3.) Stack the buckets on top of each other and fill only the top one (U238) with water. 4.) observe how the total of the flows thru all of the holes increases over time.

Yeah dv8 I can't see how it could get hot enuff fast enuff. my airliner engineer mates reckon its in them all aiirbuses incl. I have some union people ready to raise hs considering theres no mention in training for our guys here. my reputation internationale is in high performance engineering but is of no consequence here. I enjoyed escargot very much when my team was racing in france and switzerland, like a gene splice of Paua (nz black abalone) and grandpapas prime charolais steak fat. Can you tell me if escagot from my regions intense volcanic and geothermal soils will have a uranium count that will damage my health? (Its a silicious ryolite volcanisim, recycled seasludge if you will)

Um, jdurd, are you some kind of cyborg that plans to be here billions of years to take advantage of this arguement?

durn! I just watched footage of the Toronto Airbus burning on the News. The entire tail section melted into a liquid pool in about 5 seconds flat! I'm desperately clinging to the hope that it wasn't the 1000lb DU tailplane counterweight providing the heat but its a slim straw. The LD50 for Sarin nerve gas is 2mg per kg of bodyweight eg/ around 0.18g for 200lb human. Isn't this pretty durn close to ceramicised UO aerosol?

yeah tom, it falls to a slower rate of increase several times until megayears . Haven't found the graph I saw a year back but I think it maxes at 100x or so

Please look at the figures DV8 I can't argue with the half lives in days and hours of 238 daughters, can u? It was you who "handles uranium with their bare hands" wasn't it. Some may consider that gives you an agenda.

So really when you just talk about the alpha from an ingested dose like I did before, you're understating the dose and hazard by some 5 times. The two betas and 3 gammas from each decay of 238 are a considerable external risk too. Can anyone pin down the penetration in Umetal of gamma and Beta so I can approximate the output of airliner sized blocks. Great all those airbus passengers/crew survived in Toronto, have you heard if the ballast blocks burnt DV?

This is one site: http://www.idust.net/Tutorial/DURadiation01.htm eg: all of the uranium isotopes, as they give off alpha particles, produce radioactive decay products that immediately begin contaminating the pure uranium sample and undergoing radioactive decay themselves, giving off their own radioactive emissions. After a sample of NU or DU is six months old, the above figures are no longer correct. The decay products, called daughter isotopes, are giving off beta particles and gamma rays. These must be added to the alpha radiation calculated above, and this will result in a different percentage figure for the amount of radiation given off by DU as compared to NU. The relevant daughter isotopes for each of the uranium isotopes listed above are shown in the following radioactive decay series. Th represents thorium; Pa represent protactinium. Read the "»»" symbol as "producing" or "yielding". U-238 which emits alpha »» Th-234 (half-life = 24.1 days) which emits beta + gamma »» Pa-234 (half-life = 6.75 hours) which emits beta + gamma »» U-234 (half-life = 247,000 years). U-236 which emits alpha »» Th-232 (half-life = 14 billion years) U-235 which emits alpha + gamma »» Th-231 (half-life = 25.5 hours) which emits beta + gamma »» Pa-231 (half-life = 32,500 years) U-234 which emits alpha + gamma »» Th-230 (half-life = 80,000 years) The complete radioactive decay series for each of these is much longer, but for practical purposes once the chain has hit an isotope with a very long half-life, any additional decay becomes insignificant (at least for the duration of our life times). Don't worry DV8, our mon ami george tells me Jesus is far too busy getting ready to scorch the earth for a 1000y to weep.

If this Thread is closed, Hows about a new thread debating the following proposition: "There would be no justification for Nuclear power if it were not for Nuclear weapons" theres just, soooo many cheaper, clean and inexaustable power sources!

Hmmmm... Whats the validity of Nuclear industry websites stuff? It generally looks more like advertising than info. Also the peer review system has many flaws, eg./ ability of powerful vested interests to overwhelm discussion with mistruths pushed by hired sci's.

Didn't need to dob me In Tom! heres my reply to Dave. He says hes closing this thread!!! Can you clarify my violation please dave? was it post #99? Dr. Siegwart-Horst Günther had his cells tested b4 and after, 2 days inspecting bombsites in Iraq, found much evidence of Chromosome breakages. Is this is a result of a complaint from DV8/ someone else or your decision? I'm sorry if I overstepped the mark and certainly have been trying to conduct a scientific discussion. I have found my attempts to have studies and data rationally reviewed to be thwarted by ongoing abuse and ridicule by DV8 eg: "Since it is painfully obvious that science is only a political tool for you, useful only to advance whatever ideological agenda that you have at the moment," and "propaganda wrapped in a tissue of science." As my reason for being here is in part to check the validity of data I am considering using in my role as Government consultant ( we are 2 mths out from an election in New Zealand, and it will be won/lost on the nuclear issue) I have little patience for people who are prepared to write off an entire side of a debate about, arguably the biggest atrocity ever commited by a state, as "extremists/activists etc" Phd level, peer reviewed studies such as Doug Rokke's, and Dr. Siegwart-Horst Günther's

Yes it is true that any refined uranium metal increases its radioactivity substantially in 1 year. I'll have a dig for some calcs and graphs I've seen before that 1yo DUM is 75% as radioactive as 1yo NUM. Both are considerably more than new NUM.

Sorry DV, Can't consider this guy an extremist. Man who has seen, has cred's, has ability to empathise with the suffering of human beings. Dr. Doug Rokke Supporter of Suspension of Depleted Uranium Bill Major Doug Rokke, now retired, was in charge of cleaning up American tanks hit by DU during the Gulf War—casualties of friendly fire. His work involved helping casualties and cleaning equipment contaminated with depleted uranium (DU), used in the war in tank-busting weapons because of its high density. "The shell would hit an armored vehicle. The uranium would catch fire and split into burning fragments.” About 70% of the round vaporized into dust, as fine as talcum powder. "When we climbed into vehicles after they'd been hit, no matter what time of day or night it was, you couldn't see three feet in front of you. You breathed in that dust." He said the DU dust got blown far away by the wind and entered the soil and water supply. Dr Rokke and other veterans believe the munitions have made them ill, and that they also threaten civilians. Dr. Rokke, who holds a Ph.D. in physics, said many of the men in his cleanup crew developed the same kinds of cancers seen among Iraqi children. "The first member of our staff to develop cancer was sleeping downwind from where we collected the contaminated equipment," he said. "This was in Saudi Arabia. He developed cancer of the larynx and throat within nine months. He was breathing in the dust, which we know goes tremendous distances. The first lung cancers were within two years and the first deaths were fairly rapid.” Two of Dr Rokke's clean-up team of about 15 people are now dead, he said. 'You're trashed with uranium' "It's very hard to look back at all those years of recommending medical care, and yet two of your best friends are dead because you assigned them to do a job." He was tested for uranium poisoning while working as head of a Pentagon project on DU in late 1994. "In July 1997, I received a letter from the Department of Energy stating my own internal uranium contamination was 5,000 times that permissible.” Dr. Rokke believes depleted uranium poses a particular danger for children because their young bodies are more vulnerable. DU is both radioactive and a toxic, heavy metal. Children who breathe or eat even a small amount can be affected. He said using depleted uranium in Iraq may well cause serious health problems in years to come. "In no circumstances should the citizens of the world allow the use of uranium munitions in this current war," he said. "The use of uranium munitions is going to cause cancers, respiratory [problems], eye problems, neurological problems in the children of Iraq."

What do you guys think of GB's "rod from god" nuke silos in Orbit? Not to mention his 2 ton of Pu reactors for starwars. Pu being 100,000x as Haz as U at least. We've already seen worldwide cancer spikes after 40 lb Pu alpha-energy reactors have re-entered. I've calculated that as little as a ton of sand put in orbit would deny him this objective by ensuring that nothing could last more than a couple of orbits. Cascade failure of orbital systems is probably not so far off anyway, and humanity is definately not responsible enough to be there anyway, or they wouldn't have rubber stamped George, Tony and Johns ongoing war of terror and hate by voting them back.

Sorry Tom, we've had our fun anyway. I've only been here 48 hours so I do wish to respect long standing members. By the way I am incapable of faith, in the establishment, the protest movement, or god. Always been this way, thats the root of my obsesion with understanding the nitty-gritty of everything important. I know of no nuclear armed country, or even decently conventially equiped that the US state has had the guts to mess with. (they only went in to Iraq after bombing them every day and starving them for 10 years) I reckon even a small Pu spreading cruise missile or robot torpedo may be a palpable deterrant. American Citizens are so much less used to being killed than those in the states the US oppresses.

DV8, If we cannot conduct a cool, rational discussion, It may be because we are both too full of hate. Or it could be because your long term Uxposure has left too many ionisation trails scrambling your logic circuits (joke). Seriously though you should have your sperm cells checked for chromosome breakages. Knowledge is power, denial the route to madness. You may be able to chelate some of your internal dose out and looking after your immune system will help it deal with damaged cells. I'd look at some stem cell therapy too.

I reserve the right to personal attack as long as I'm not trying to prove/disprove anyones data with it. "DV8, unlike yourself I do not believe that the personal reputation of the scientist is more important than easily verifiable objective data. " Here I'm paraphasing the very fallacy you think this statement contravenes.

DVit you spindocter you are exposed ;-}~ google: India HEU bomb - you will find nothing saying India used Foreign HEU google: India CANDU bomb - every page speaks the truth! try it folks

DV8 stop using: -the fallacy of personal attack -the fallacy of false authority -the fallacy of false analogy three of the 4 basic fallacies in logical argument as I remember them from university 20 years ago to attempt to discredit everything I say. You have not shown any evidence or valid argument to discredit ANYTHING I have posted. While a "devils advocate" is a great counterpoint to dissemble the nitty gritty of the subject, if as you say, we are on the same side then well thoughtout and supported criticism's will advance the collective knowledge far more effectively. "ye cannae change the laws of physics Cap'n" (Alas poor scotty, the late Canadian we knew so well)