walkntune

Science is on it's way to unveiling the God of Einstein and Spinoza! Science is well on it's way to discovering the mysteries of the mind and positive and negative energy! Ever thought of someone and they call you and you say AAAAH, I was just thinking of you! Pretty freaky! These are just my opinions though! Can't prove anything until the particles are proven! And yes the mind can get in the way of what they are observing! Albert Einstein

Basically I have a very unusual ability to sense an energy of some sort of of people. I heard of Indians talk of auras and such but I don't believe in spirits or Gods. I think there is a scientific explanation and I am searching for people with scientific insight to help! Some of the energies rub me the wrong way and some are more soothing to be around. There has to be an explanation for this.

Yes this is very true. Now I am going to speculate sense this is philosophy thinking that as quantum physics continues studying the break down of atomic particles and such they are going to realize that a humans sense of an eternal soul is actually a sense of an energy that is not created or destroyed but only changes form. It is a human actually sensing nature as it is. When his resistance becomes more than the energy that sustains life in us, it is forced to leave and thus death! When that big black cloud comes down(Bob Dylan) it is an energy force of nature that makes you feel like you are being discharged! Energy is just energy! It is not created or destroyed but only changes in and out of form and back and forth from kinetic to potential! Same energy in chemical reaction of brain as electricity and magnetic fields. Just a different mass with the energy causing a different effect! Until science studies energy as the cause of all actions and reactions instead of the result of actions and reactions they won't understand energy nor our origins or the beginning of time! They will just assume there are many different types of energies and need many types of sciences because they only observe effects of this material world we live in and not cause. Energy being a cause and not an effect gives everything a complete different meaning! You have to ask yourself what came first the chicken or the egg? Did everything you study and observe happen first and cause an effect or did there have to be a force first? Energy just IS!!!!! Einstein knew this! Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedDo you feel it is a coincidence just as sperm races up the Fallopian tube to get to the egg that life is full of competition of all sorts! People in unhealthier mindsets keeping up with the Jones and whatnot??? Its all the same driving force of life that even made your parents want to get together in the first place and a force that keeps going even when you are gone. You are nothing more than a victim caught up in this force and controlled by it in your ability to handle stress and pressure because this force is very foundation of everything in your life. When you are gone this force doesn't die but goes on and finds a path with least resistance(once your body becomes to much resistance and energy has no choice but to escape) because energy is never created nor destroyed! Doesn't mean a consciousness carries on but the energy force behind you as a living creatures does!

No its not about money but writing a book off of Ideas and wanted to keep myself out of trouble!

Could you please elaborate! I am trying to get understanding and in site! If I observe that a kid gets hit by a car and just lays in the street dead,where did that life energy go! If its true that energy can't be created or destroyed but only changes in and out of form, then what happened to the energy? Even the very body rotten and decaying is energy changing form so I want to understand what happened to the energy that was giving him life? A hit from a car changed the kids state from physical body full of life and energy into just a physical body! The energy left after impact!

How does someone go about copyrighting a scientific idea? If you do get a copyriight do your quotes have a copyright as well? Thanks!

Who is really controlling who? We are always finding ways of controlling energy through scientific technology to make life easier,communication unlimited,get to our destinations faster etc. As this technology increases so does our pace of life! I am really curious as to how we know who is in control. We use energy through material objects to control it , manipulate and come out with a desired effect but what (energy force) is driving us to do this! Is it possible that energy has a natural course to travel the path with least resistance so wanting to travel in and out of form as easily as possible , knowledge evolves as energy tries to make its way? Can everything fall up under a law of nature instead of a law of logic? You ask me to describe energy in definition and all I can say is anything you possible can observe is energy in it's state of least resistance in that particular instance! Is it possible that all of the complexities we know of in life with all of it's laws of logic can fall under such a law of nature as the beauty of simplicity? Could this be the God of Einstein or actually the God of Spinoza? Looking for thoughts from those who know the science!( I only think philosophically) Wasn't sure where to place this thread but thought if there is a philosophical truth to this than I thought quantum mechanics would be the science to one day come to this truth!

I took this from another thread I wrote in a different forum! Jesus may may not have been God(keeping any beliefs off) but in my opinion was one of the greatest philosophers to walk the planet! He taught that it was better to give than to receive and to be selfless! Only by giving can you win the hearts and affections of others. Soon more love comes in than can go out. You want people love you all you do is love them first. Try to get people to love you first and you are annoyance! Only as you keep giving does the flow continue of receiving more than you can give! Once you start trying to receive the flow changes and may stop and start to become stagnant! You reverse and keep trying to take and take and you might find yourself a bum on the street begging and wishing you had! My final conclusion is a mans worth is a measure of how much he can give. So in essence when you give to others they give back . You end up with not only having what you had originally but also what they gave you too. Give that out and see what happens ! There is no greater love than a man who will lay down his life for his brother!

This was a good example of how beliefs can change the course of a persons life and have a major impact on the world and so forth! Your beliefs will become and dictate your realities!

I wanted to back this up since it is a strong statement and see how common sense can stand with scientific logic! Can't positive thinking affect our performance, thus affecting our actions, thus affecting everyone's reaction? Let's do a scientific study or actually one that has been done over and over! Put yourself in a positive state through positive thinking and go ask a girl out! Try again in a negative state and see if you get a similar reaction! Each of those reactions will continue on maybe even forever as it influences behavior passed on from one person to the next.You could end up married and in a whole complete physical world than the other. Suppose a friend of the girl sees you at night and is scared because she thinks your a freak from asking her friend out in a negative state so turns and runs and gets hit by a car!That affect will go on and on also since it might have caused a life to never be born and so on. Your positive and negative state affects your world tremendously and does not have to be supernatural.I believe we can communicate this energy somehow through intuition and even dogs and animals can pick up and be affected also but thats my own speculation! Where has it been proven that picking lint does not help? Where has it been proven that stepping over cracks in the sidewalk does not help? Where has it been proven that whistling does not help? Where has it been proven that abstaining from prayer does not help? This being said maybe picking up lint can be proved to help if you feel lucky and positive for doing it! Just don't leave a bunch on your shirt when you ask out that girl because lint itself can cause the whole world to change!!!(smiling)! So be it to all other forms of belief!

As I said in my initial post i am not schooled in the sciences and am searching for help from those who are.It has become a toss up for the average layman to know where to turn for answers!I don't know which scientific studies to trust and not trust. I see studies like sugar plays no part in hyperactivity in children and it makes me sick! As far as I know they stuck a bowl of sugar beside him and said yep!! This confirms it! Anyone with common sense can cut back on sugar intake and and substitute fresh fruits and vegetables and observe a change in a child's behavior. Science is becoming such an abuse of power that the average person is completely loosing faith in its integrity all in the name of the almighty dollar! At least religion keeps(some) people feeling positive and loved and moving in a positive direction so people will stick with it no matter how illogical it is! But even religion has it's quirks and will take advantage of peoples emotions for money as well! If you don't think positive energy affects your physical world I can show you with just good ole common sense! This is coming from someone just seeking honest help! I am looking for those who can see a glass half full and not half empty because I do know how positive energy in someone has in impact! I am not looking to just be slammed down with someone who tries to use power behind knowledge( not aimed at anyone but just experience in all science forums I have been in)! I understand these rooms are for open debate but just looking for integrity behind the debate! I feel integrity will always take someone where knowledge can't. If you want to discredit me just ask a scientific question! Please note again that this is not pointed in anyone's direction at all but stating a simple fact there is a lot of learning and growing humans can do even outside of the sciences and logic can never be the ends to all means! Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I am not using a bad theology but am am suggesting what you are saying here! I believe logic will explain the supernatural. In other words maybe the cows lining up with a magnetic field might sound a little hokie to a skeptic but could there possibly be something to this sense and could even humans have a sense of a force (magnetic field or what ever...) and create many different kinds of religions and belief systems off of this. Could our sense of right and wrong come from are ability to stay in line with the north and south poles magnetic fields maybe through intuition! When we step out of bounds our body gets out of balance(cause of health problems) and when we get back in bounds the body starts to heal and get back in balance! Could prayer be one way to try and hold in balance,positive thinking possibly another, ways to alleviate stress another and etc...! Could all religions and beliefs and so forth all fall back onto one source which is just a natural (logical) occurrence of nature! Can it be logical since we are created with energy and mass are are able to produce energy( even if its static ) that we could sense the existence of magnetic field. Can there be deep studies in this. When some people get motion sickness and others don't ,can it be because of being a little out of alignment of magnetic field and what not. I know this might sound out there but is it more plausible then a God! Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I am not using a bad theology but am am suggesting what you are saying here! I believe logic will explain the supernatural. In other words maybe the cows lining up with a magnetic field might sound a little hokie to a skeptic but could there possibly be something to this sense and could even humans have a sense of a force (magnetic field or what ever...) and create many different kinds of religions and belief systems off of this. Could our sense of right and wrong come from are ability to stay in line with the north and south poles magnetic fields maybe through intuition! When we step out of bounds our body gets out of balance(cause of health problems) and when we get back in bounds the body starts to heal and get back in balance! Could prayer be one way to try and hold in balance,positive thinking possibly another, ways to alleviate stress another and etc...! Could all religions and beliefs and so forth all fall back onto one source which is just a natural (logical) occurrence of nature! Can it be logical since we are created with energy and mass are are able to produce energy( even if its static ) that we could sense the existence of magnetic field. Can there be deep studies in this. When some people get motion sickness and others don't ,can it be because of being a little out of alignment of magnetic field and what not. I know this might sound out there but is it more plausible then a God! Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I am not using a bad theology but am am suggesting what you are saying here! I believe logic will explain the supernatural. In other words maybe the cows lining up with a magnetic field might sound a little hokie to a skeptic but could there possibly be something to this sense and could even humans have a sense of a force (magnetic field or what ever...) and create many different kinds of religions and belief systems off of this. Could our sense of right and wrong come from are ability to stay in line with the north and south poles magnetic fields maybe through intuition! When we step out of bounds our body gets out of balance(cause of health problems) and when we get back in bounds the body starts to heal and get back in balance! Could prayer be one way to try and hold in balance,positive thinking possibly another, ways to alleviate stress another and etc...! Could all religions and beliefs and so forth all fall back onto one source which is just a natural (logical) occurrence of nature! Can it be logical since we are created with energy and mass are are able to produce energy( even if its static ) that we could sense the existence of magnetic field. Can there be deep studies in this. When some people get motion sickness and others don't ,can it be because of being a little out of alignment of magnetic field and what not. I know this might sound out there but is it more plausible then a God!

Why would positive thinking that effects the physical realm qualify as majic? Doesn't positive thinking affect our performance, thus affecting our actions, thus affecting everyone's reaction? Let's do a scientific study or actually one that has been done over and over! Put yourself in a positive state through positive thinking and go ask a girl out! Try again in a negative state and see if you get a similar reaction! Each of those reactions will continue on maybe even forever as it influences behavior passed on from one person to the next.You could end up married and in a whole complete physical world than the other. Suppose a friend of the girl sees you at night and is scared because she thinks your a freak from asking her friend out in a negative state so turns and runs and gets hit by a car!That affect will go on and on also since it might have caused a life to never be born and so on. Your positive and negative state affects your world tremendously and does not have to be supernatural.I believe we can communicate this energy somehow through intuition and even dogs and animals can pick up and be affected also but thats my own speculation! This being said maybe picking up lint can be proved to help if you feel lucky and positive for doing it! Just don't leave a bunch on your shirt when you ask out that girl because lint itself can cause the whole world to change!!!(smiling)! So be it to all other forms of belief!

I am going to assume that there is no way to do an unbiased study on the effects of prayer!How do you prove who ever is praying even believes? It is neither here nor there for me! I understand the different effects of being positive or negative can have! I am more interested in the sensation people feel or sense as a God and a scientific reason behind it!

Now we can go back and forth all day long and find studies that prove prayer has an affect and proving it does not. I happen to know through experience that prayer and positive thinking play a major role in you external surroundings but that won't mean a hill of beans to you especially if your skeptic! I am still leaning toward science for an explanation! I believe it can have something to do with energy from sub atomic particles going in one direction possible from big bang and continuing as the universe expands Giving people a sense of being guided in one direction by a loving God especially if we can sense this force of an expanding universe! I know people are sensing something they call God and makes more sense then God! Scientific Research of Prayer: Can the Power of Prayer Be Proven? By Debra Williams, D.D. 1999 PLIM Retreat, © 1999 PLIM REPORT, Vol. 8 #4 Theme: Inner Journey, Part 5 Feel free to copy and circulate this article for non-commercial purposes provided the Web site and author are mentioned. See Related Articles in MEDITATION AND THE POWERS OF THE MIND Introduction Throughout time, the power of prayer has been questioned by science. The analytical mind of the scientist calls for proof of the existence of a higher being. These scientists, both the faithful and nonbelievers alike, have produced studies into the affects of prayer on our physical as well as spiritual well being. Although most of us, who possess the belief that prayer can and does work, do not require physical, quantitative proof of the power of prayer, it is interesting to read the results of these studies. Was a scientific study of prayer and its effect on heart patients done? One of the most quoted scientific studies of prayer was done between August of 1982 and May of 1983. 393 patients in the San Francisco General Hospital’s Coronary Care Unit participated in a double blind study to assess the therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer. Patients were randomly selected by computer to either receive or not receive intercessory prayer. All participants in the study, including patients, doctors, and the conductor of the study himself remained blind throughout the study, To guard against biasing the study, the patients were not contacted again after it was decided which group would be prayed for, and which group would not. It was assumed that although the patients in the control group would not be prayed for by the participants in the study, that others-family members, friends etc., would likely pray for the health of at least some of the members of the control group. There was no control over this factor. Meanwhile all of the members of the group that received prayer would be prayed for by not only those associated with the study, but by others as well. The results of the study are not surprising to those of us who believe in the power of prayer. The patients who had received prayer as a part of the study were healthier than those who had not. The prayed for group had less need of having CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) performed and less need for the use of mechanical ventilators. They had a diminished necessity for diuretics and antibiotics, less occurrences of pulmonary edema, and fewer deaths. Taking all factors into consideration, these results can only be attributed to the power of prayer. Did prayer lower blood pressure? The August 31, 1998 issue of Jet Magazine questioned whether prayer could lower blood pressure in high blood pressure sufferers, Again the obvious conclusion was reached. The magazine reported of a study conducted by Duke University Medical Center in Durham, NC. This study had over 4,000 participants over the age of 65. The study found that those who pray and attend religious services on a weekly basis, especially those between the ages of 65 and 74, had lower blood pressure than their counterparts who did not pray or attend religious services. They found that the more religious the person, particularly those who prayed or studied the Bible weekly, the lower the blood pressure. According to the study these people were forty percent less likely to have high diastolic pressure or diastolic hypertension than these were who did not attend religious services, pray, or study the Bible. Dr. David B. Larson, president of the National Institute for Health Care Research in Rockville, MD, who co-authored the study, also says that prayer can lower high blood pressure. "The at-risk population of people with illnesses, such as the elderly seem to be helped if they have faith and religious commitment." Dr. Larson states: "Faith brings a calming state which helps decrease nervousness and anxiety with coping with day to day stress." How does prayer effect people who lack health care? In the Essence Magazine May 1997 issue, Allison Abner writes that African-Americans have historically turned to faith in times of illness and other crises. She cited Luisah Teish who states: "Because of limited access to quality health care and our distrust of the medical establishment we have occasionally relied on spiritual healing through such practices as prayer and the laying on of hands, Most of us, at some time have used prayer chanting or proverbs as ways to guide, direct, and heal ourselves." "Now," states Allison, "Our beliefs are being backed by medical research," Science is setting out to prove what most of the faithful already know--prayer does work. Has a prayer study been done on the life of twins? The December 1998 issue of Mc Call’s Magazine raised the question: How does prayer heal? The article notes a study done at the Virginia Commonwealth University Medical College of Virginia in Richmond, which studied 1,902 twins. They found that those who were committed to their spiritual lives tended to have less severe depression and a lower risk of addiction to cigarettes or alcohol. The healthful lifestyles of the spiritually rich and faithful clearly contribute to their well being, They tend not to smoke or drink or not do either excessively. Their marriages are more stable and their spiritual communities form a network that can catch and support people when they are ill. What effect does prayer and religion have on life? To delve into religious attitudes and their impact on health, Koenig and his co-researcher, Kenneth Paragament, Ph.D., a professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, studied 577 hospital patients age 55 and older. One 98-year-old woman with pneumonia and congestive heart failure looked upon her illness as God’s plan for her. She prayed often for the health and well being of her family and friends. These attitudes were associated with a serene response to stress and low levels of depression. All signs of well being that nurture joy in living might even extend one’s life. While positive feelings toward a higher power seemed to foster well being, negative thoughts about a deity had the opposite effect. For example, a woman in her late 50’s with lung cancer left her church in her 20’s, became involved with drugs, and now feels her illness must be a sign of divine disapproval. She got poorer scores on tests that measured quality of life and psychological health than the 98-year-old woman. What do atheists think about prayer? Noted atheist Dan Barker, a spokesperson for the Freedom from Religion Foundation says the findings of the above research are no big surprise. Prayer and religious beliefs can have a placebo effect, just like a sugar pill. Barker, who was once a Christian Fundamentalist preacher before developing serious doubts about his religion, states that one of the strongest factors in recovery from an illness is a sense of connectedness with a community and people who care about you. Even if we mumble our prayers only when we are ill or if there is no God to hear them, the new research indicated that religious thoughts could help to heal. Dr. Larry Dossey writes about the placebo effect mentioned earlier by Dan Barker and physicians who have looked at the tremendous amount of scientific studies on prayer. As Dr. Dossey states: "That is difficult to do considering that bacteria, fungi, and germinating seeds are not generally considered to be susceptible to suggestion." Does prayer effect plant seeds? In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others. In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time. What effect does prayer have on microorganisms? Dr. Dossey, in his book, Be Careful What You Pray For, looks closely at experiments with microorganisms. He states, "Skeptics who do not believe in the effects of distant intentions say that any observed result must be due to the expectation of the subject- or the power of belief and thought." Dossey argues that if bacteria respond to outside intentions by growing more slowly when prayed over, than control groups not receiving prayer, then one cannot dismiss this result by attributing it to negative suggestion. Bacteria presumably do not think positively or negatively. Another major advantage of microorganisms in studies of distant mental intentions has to do with the control group. If the effects of intercessory prayer, for example, are being assessed in a group of humans who have a particular illness, it is difficult to establish a pure control group that does not receive prayer. The reason is that sick human beings generally pray for themselves; or outsiders pray for them, thus contaminating the control group, which by definition should not receive the treatment being evaluated. In studies involving microbes, this notorious "Problem of Extraneous Prayer" is totally overcome because one can be reasonably certain that the bacteria, fungi, or yeast in a control group will not pray for themselves. And that their fellow microbes will not pray for them. If the study involved negative intentions instead of positives, the advantages remain the same. The thoughts of microorganisms do not influence its outcome. Jean Barry, a physician-researcher in Bordeaux, France, chooses to work with a destructive fungus, Rhizoctonia Solani. He asked 10 people to try to inhibit its growth merely through their intentions at a distance of 1.5 meter. The experiment involved control Petri dishes with fungi that were not influenced in addition to those that were. The laboratory conditions were carefully controlled regarding the genetic purity of the fungi and the composition of the culture medium, the relative humidity, and the conditions of temperature and lighting. The control petri dishes and the influenced dishes were treated identically, except for the negative intentions directed toward the latter. A person who was blind to the details of the experiment handled various manipulations. The influences simply took their stations at the 1.5 meters and were free to act as they saw fit for their own concentration. For 15 minutes each subject was assigned five experimental and five control dishes. Of the ten subjects three to six subjects worked during a session, and there were nine sessions. Measurement of the fungi colony on the Petri dish was obtained by outlining the boundary of the colony on a sheet of thin paper. Again, someone who did not know the aim of the experiment or the identity of the Petri dishes did this. The outlines were then cut out and weighed under condition of constant temperature and humidity. When the growth in 195 experimental dishes was compared to their corresponding controls, it was significantly retarded in 151 dishes. The possibility that these results could be explained by chance was less than one in a thousand. Dr. Daniel I. Benor, who has evaluated all the known experiments in the field of distant healing in his landmark work healing research, calls this study "Highly significant." Does physical distance effect prayer? The researchers William H. Tedder and Melissa L. Monty from the University of Tennessee replicated the experiment. The goal of this study was to inhibit the growth of the fungus from the distance of one to fifteen miles. Two groups participated. Group one was made up of Tedder and six others who knew him and frequently interacted with him over a year and a half. Group 2 consisted of 8 volunteers who either did not know Tedder or did not interact with him frequently. When the growth differential between the experimental and control dishes were compared, group one was highly successful. The likelihood of explaining their results by chance were less than 3 in 100,000. Group two was less successful. Their likelihood of a chance explanation was 6 in 100. Why was group one more successful? The researchers theorized that because of their established rapport with Tedder they might have had greater expectation and more motivation of a positive outcome than group two had. In a post-experiment questionnaire, the group one subjects indeed responded more positively to questions about how they perceived their ability to inhibit the fungal cultures at a distance. Note: This is a clear example of faith in prayer verses doubt. The fact that prayer is non local, that it functions at a distance, and that spatial separation does not diminish the affect means that it does not have to be intrusive. There is cross-cultural evidence that prayer does work. The factors that seem to affect the outcome of these studies are qualifies of consciousness, like caring, compassion, empathy, and love. When you take these qualities away the outcome of the study is changed. In, fact according to Dr. Dossey, if you flip these "empathetic, warm feelings" to the negative, frequently the subject is affected. In experiments a bacterium died and plants withered when subjected to the negative influence. Conclusion These studies have shown conclusive evidence of the power of prayer. Time after time the outcomes of these tests have shown the reality of the force of a higher being and our ability to communicate with Him. We have also learned from viewing the results of these studies that the expectations we have while praying factor into the outcome of our prayers. Though the faithful will always believe that there need not be any physical evidence of the power and effects of prayer, science has come a long way toward showing just that-prayer is real, and it works. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedOne other point of interest you might want to observe is how cows are lining up from google satalite pics to the magnetic field of the earth. I originally assumed this is what we as humans sense too in the way of a God and how they are studying the affects of powerlines and how they throw the cows off alignment!Would it really be too far fetched for us to sense this field also as we are made of energy and mass would not a magnetic field affect us somehow?

I believe all sciences will link together in the end and it will all be the beauty of simplicity! Doesn't God use the simple things to confound the wise??? Also not sure how psychology and neurobiology will be able to explain how a persons faith or whatnot can have an affect on another which is also an observed phenomenon especially in the medical field!

If it's ok I borrowed this from Rixon Stuart and Richard Stone! I truly believe that Logic can come to a truth. I just don't believe science will be able to come to a truth until it is willing to engage in the fact that what people are sensing as a spiritual presence and supernatural phenomenon is real and tangible! If science always discards it as myth than science in no way can prove it wrong otherwise but each has a right to their belief. I personally believe that there is a science behind the super natural that one day will be discovered. Now its all belief and speculation for me because well I don't know jack about science and two, its a mystery to all who do! As sub atomic particles are broke down they become a mystery of coming in and out of existence. If you take it the other way we observe an expanding universe!I believe there is a force from tiny particles going in and out of existence all the way to the expanding universe.(An atomic force of some sort) It is going in a direction and everything is in the path of the direction and therefore has a sense to it if you will. Maybe intuition plays a part in staying in line with this force (i have no scientific term) and the more we step out of alignment the more resistance we feel(religion may call this sin)! Animals may stay in alignment through natural instinct but humans have evolved the ability to step in and out of alignment by free will.(actually fear and faith) My personal belief is that as he steps out of alignment with this force I described the resistance takes a toll on the body and as he steps back in alignment balance starts to reoccur! I believe faith works our intuition to step in and out of alignment! Belief in God works as a truth system and you will not convince a true Christian otherwise no matter how illogical he has to be because what he senses is spiritual is more real than the natural and does in many cases bring to truth super natural phenomenon as we know and understand it to be and thus is the case in many hospitals! Now I have been told that there is no force but to put my mind at ease I am looking for proof as I believe that the sense of a force is real and searching science for the truth of it! The positive outcome is I am learning science.So is it possible that atomic energy can play a role in this force and possible expansion of universe and big bang! I understand science is in a box and if something is outside of the box than it is discarded as hokey but if you can find a logical perspective out of fun to do away with a logical belief system based on what I base on science, please set my mind at ease for I came from a place of believing in God to now believing there is a scientific (logical) explanation for what is truth. I believe as of now what I am saying can stand in the balance of not being able to be proved logically true or untrue and as science stands something must be proved true or otherwise discarded as false is actually sciences very own limitation to coming to truth! I am only looking for scientific reasons to maybe even prove it false or show logical reasons to be false like you are with a moral God! I am learning a lot as I search through the sciences to take my stance from a religious one to a scientific one!