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I never mentioned Eric Garner. Absolutely. We have more guns per capita than any other nation in the world. The US has 90 guns per 100 residents while England and Wales have 6.2 guns per 100 residents. And that doesn't even account for the relatively small number of handguns in England and Wales. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country There are also other police practices in England I've heard of that make it less likely that police will end up in a confrontation in the first place. I don't know what your point is. Are you suggesting that the average officer reviewed for excessive force should be as likely to be incarcerated as the average drug dealer? This exactly gets to my point. The police are not the same as the average offender. We PUT them in a difficult position. I think it likely that if you give a law abiding person a gun and ask them to deal with the law breakers, and authorize the use of force, that they will on occasion hurt someone. We are ASKING them to do so. To suggest that police should be as likely to go to jail when they are acting in their role as police officers as the average drug dealer/burglar/killer/etc. is ridiculous. I have no idea what the comparison to different countries could mean unless they have all the same laws as we have. Is that a lot or a little? Did they win or lose the suits? Were those suits related to bad outcomes for good faith effort? Or were they related to negligence? What is your point in simply listing the number of suits? You are correct. And as I said, that is not fair. We can't be unfair to Wilson just because we have been unfair to others. What we need to do is stop being unfair to all those you mentioned. Again, I never suggested otherwise. All I said was only Wilson knew if he feared for his life. I don't know what you are trying to prove with this continued push on this topic.

A change might be nice but I'm not sure how it would be accomplished. There are 90 municipalities (of which Ferguson is one) and 10 unincorporated areas in St. Louis County. How small of an area can support a Grand Jury? Will you pull together a Grand Jury every time there is a new crime? Should the Grand Jury be similar to the accused or the victim? What if Michael Brown had taken a walk and been killed in the exact same way in a rich, white community? I'm not sure that Grand Jury would be fair. You couldn't really have created a Grand Jury from the black residents of Ferguson and felt confident you would get a fair review. It also brings up the question of what other factors should be taken into consideration when constructing the Grand Jury. If the community was mostly Jewish, should the Grand Jury consist mostly of Jews? If the community is mostly illiterate should the Grand Jury consist of mostly illiterate people?

But it is the donations from the military that are making the police "a heavily militarized police force". Which is what we should expect. We also shouldn't be surprised that given the vast number of encounters police have with criminals that on occasion the will be issues. Couldn't agree more. But I also feel that in a highly stressful situation, where violence is occurring, that it is unreasonable to expect that an officer will always remember and properly execute the choke hold taught two years ago when he is now struggling with some huge guy who is intending to do him harm. The police are in a tough spot. They don't know the intent of the person they are dealing with. They are scared. Adrenaline is flowing. They are trying to remember if they can do this but not that. Most police don't wish to harm anyone. And they are in a very fluid situation where they have about 3 seconds to make a decision. And of course the juries are in a tough spot. They weren't there. They don't know what the officer was thinking. They have a tough time really understanding what happened simply by reading a report or talking to people who give 20 different versions of what they saw. I think I can get a rough idea of what it is like to be in combat, or have a baby, or deal with cancer, but unless I do it myself it is hard to judge. So in my mind, the police rightly get the benefit of the doubt. Not because it is always right, but because mistakes are going to happen. Just like we tend to give a doctor the benefit of the doubt if they do their best to treat a patient and it turns out they were not as successful as was actually possible, we need to give the police that same benefit of the doubt. I'm all for going after police who break the law (after all they could shoot me too), and I suspect we don't go after them enough, but if something goes wrong and the person the police were trying to arrest was not cooperating, then we need to be awfully sure of our facts before we indict and try police. Let's compare apples to apples. We give all those people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their job. If a farmer misjudges the weather and plants his seed which then rots in the ground because of a long spell of wet weather, we don't criticize him for not doing a better job. He did his best and it didn't work out. No repercussions. Only if he was reckless by not paying attention to weather reports is he criticized. The same should hold true for the police. I didn't mean to suggest that you did. I was only trying to show and extreme example, and point out that you still have to look at each case on its own. Just as a woman's sexual past is irrelevant when trying a rape case, a police department's past is irrelevant when trying an officer. Well it would certainly have been better for us. We would have a better idea of the facts. But you cannot put someone through a trial simply because it is politically expedient. It would not be fair to try Wilson just because it will make us or the residents of Ferguson happy. If a Grand Jury feels a trial is necessary, then by all means have the trial. But there is a reason we put the process that we have in place. It is so we can be fair to everyone involved, and limit how much we do based on emotion. How could a witness possibly know if Wilson feared for his life or not?

It is not so much spending on the police force as it is the police being given the military's used equipment. But of course the police are handled differently. Under certain conditions police are allowed activities under the law that would land you in jail. Police may legally drive over the speed limit, enter a private residence, forcibly grab someone off the street and throw them in a car, or even kill under the proper circumstances. Because we ask the police to perform duties that often result in injury or death to citizens or themselves, they tend to get the benefit of the doubt when their performance is in question. While statistics may tell you that police as a group are targeting minorities, they don't help much when it comes to specific situations. Even if the entire state of Missouri, and specifically the police of Ferguson are racist scumbags, you still have to look at Darren Wilson's actions in seclusion. He may be the only non-racist on the force. He may have broken the law many times before but acted correctly in the case of Michael Brown. It is very difficult to know whether or not Wilson feared for his life or the lives of innocent bystanders. Only he knows for sure. And unless you are confident he is lying in this particular case, you are going to be hard pressed to get an indictment or conviction.

So which category do I fall in?

Citation? That seems so out of line with the poll I was able to locate. http://time.com/3613454/ferguson-poll-racial-partisan/

I haven't been able to find that there is an "incitement to violence" law in Missouri. Here is someting I did find. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/03/should-michael-browns-stepfather-be-charged-with-inciting-a-riot-what-about-the-rioters/

I know that there is a comprehensive investigation going on regarding the nights of rioting, and that the police are planning to talk to Brown's step-father soon. I hope they do pursue the rioters agressively but I don't have high hopes that much will come of it. I think the step-father is different. First, I don't know if he can be charged with inciting a riot if no one who heard him say it actually rioted (although other laws may have been violated). And I think the police would be hard pressed to find someone who they can prove heard him say it and then went on to riot because of it. The police and prosecutor have a great deal of flexibility in how they enforce laws. I just feel that given the overall situation, I would talk to the step-father, let him know the possible consequences of his actions, then quietly file away the paperwork.

I don't think it would serve any good purpose to charge him. The people who rioted in Ferguson were going to do so whether he prompted them or not. I agree that it was terribly irresponsible and it tells us what kind of man he is, and had a riot started that would not have otherwise I'd probably feel differently. But since is was said in the heat of the moment and it probably didn't do much to incite the riot I'd be inclined to just let it go. There is no real effort to arrest those who were seen looting stores and to me this is no worse. I'd be happier to see things calm down before anyone gets seriously hurt.

I suspect the culture is driven more by economics than by race. My kids hung out with both white and black kids and from what I oculd tell they all had common interests. If you can afford a car, you drive. If you can't, you walk. If you have a job, you work. If you are unemployed, you spend more time just hanging around. People with more money have more options to go out and do things. If you have little money you have few options. I think it is poor people who come into contact with police the most. If you are not working and can't afford to be somewhere, you are likely to be socializing around your neighborhood, and my experience has been that if you are a young male, you don't want to do that at home.

It is hard to believe this is a science site sometimes given all the unsupported assertions. If you've got evidence that you are right or that I am wrong, please provide it. If you have an argument to make, please do so. But enough with assertions like "This was out and out corruption" unless you are willing to support it. It's getting old.

Which of the shell casings in the attached picture would you guess were fired while Brown was fleeing, and how can you tell? http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-missouri-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=4 Given that Brown was approximately 150 feet from the car it is not surprising that when he headed back toward the car he only traveled about 25 feet during those last three seconds. See the attached image from where the furthest blood was found to where the body fell. Also note that the location of the shell casings (further away from the car than where the body fell) support Wilson's testimony that he was backing up and firing as Brown was approaching him. For some reason I cannot open the link but I suppose it is telling us that the two are somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 miles apart. In which case, so what? Ladue is even closer to Ferguson than East St. Louis. Does that mean that Ladue is the same as Ferguson? If you've been to both Ferguson and East St. Louis then it should be crystal clear to you that they are nothing like each other. An interesting aside is that much of "Escape from New York" was shot in East St. Louis since it already looked post-apocalyptic. Yes, several times. You've already said. Your ability to ascertain a man's intentions and professional capability based on the absence of a particular emotion during a 30 minute interview three months after an event occurred is astounding. Unfortunately the rest of us must rely on evidence. You said "the prosecutor {did} not even suggest a range of possible indictments". Yet the prosecutor suggested a range of five different possible indictments. How is your statement not false?

You are wrong. His testimony on the timing and gunshots from his gun are supported by the physical evidence. Yes, that is apparent. That is not supported by the physical evidence. Did you even look at it? I see you are back to repeating the known evidence without making an argument that would explain how it shows anyone was lying. Sigh... I guess it is too much to hope that you are going to supply any evidence for this assertion? And why do you continue to make false statements? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ferguson-decision-grand-jury-decides-not-to-charge-police-officer-darren-wilson-in-michael-brown/ Dude, if you don't know that there is a difference between Ferguson and East St. Louis then you have no business commenting on this thread. Your assertions in question are about Ferguson. Ferguson is in Missouri. East St. Louis is in Illinois. No, actually evidence is exactly what is going to help. It is your unsupported assertions that are not helping. While it is quite clear that blacks continue to be treated less well than whites both in Missouri and the rest of the country, you cannot simply apply what has happened elsewhere to what has happened this time in Ferguson. If you are going to condemn Wilson in this case it would serve you well to read up on the facts of the case. Condemning Darren Wilson simply because he is a white officer, and other white officers have committed murder of blacks, is every bit as discriminatory as you are accusing those white police officers in Ferguson of being.

Please provide evidence that law enforcement in Ferguson represents the interests of white people primarily. Wilson shot at the guy 12 times, hitting him at least 6 times. The fatal wound was from a bullet entering through the top of the skull, at some distance from the patrol car and Wilson, at least 7 seconds after the initial shot in the patrol car. If assertions at odds with the simple known facts of the matter are being made, repetition of those facts is a gentle way of making a reasonable argument, no? Please tell me what assertions I made that are at odds with the simple known facts. If you were referring to officer Wilson, please tell me what assertions officer Wilson made that are at odds with the simple known facts. And because you must have missed these questions from a previous post, also please answer the following: What was the duration of your stay in the region, and what was your sample size that allowed you to draw your conclusions about the region? How did you randomly select white people? Can you give some examples of the flagrant, obvious, in your face racism you saw during your short visit to the region?

Your continued use of uninformed speculation as fact in this thread is getting tiresome. An argument consists of more than just repeating evidence that has been made public. You clearly seem to have made up your mind long before the evidence came in.

I think you correctly interpreted what Rudy was implying. I also think that Rudy is guilty of using a red herring. Whether or not African Americans are outraged (or should be outraged) by the number of blacks killed by other blacks is irrelevant to what happened to Michael Brown. I don't believe blacks kill blacks because of their race. I believe they kill blacks because they are the people they encounter when doing whatever it is they are doing that leads to murder. The people who are protesting over Michael Brown are doing so because they feel they are being targeted due to their race. It is one thing if two criminals try to kill each other. It is quite another if you are being killed because of a trait that is only apparent when the lights are on. Most financial crime is white on white crime. I'd like Rudy to explain where the outrage is for those crimes. Why are they being ignored?

Agreed. I don't think there is any doubt that blacks are treated less well than whites by law enforcement, and for whatever reason this particular shooting struck a chord and people are venting their frustration. If Wilson's testimony is to be believed, then it sounds like the shooting was inevitable and justified (although the way the confrontation began seems bizarre to me). But this particular man dying is not what this is about. It is only the catalyst. This is more about the relationship between law enforcement and the minority population.

The talk around here is that he will not lose his job as he was not indicted, although I cannot imagine him staying around. The risk would be too great to him. I imagine a civil suit is just around the corner.

Leading up to the Grand Jury decision it seemed as if everyone was talking about it, and expecting violence. While there were certainly exceptions, whether one thought Darren Wilson should be indicted or not was primarily split along racial lines. To me it felt just like it did when the police who beat Rodney King were found not guilty. There were two main areas of protest on Monday night; on the main road that runs through Ferguson and was the main site where most of the previous protests were held, and near the Shaw neighborhood where an armed black teenager was shot and killed by an off duty policeman working security in October. In the city of Ferguson it quickly turned violent with stores being looted and burned, cars burned, and many guns fired, although none apparently by police. Only one person wounded by gunfire and no one killed. It was far and away the most violent protest since Michael Brown was killed. In the Shaw neighborhood the protesters were very well organized and non-violent, but very effective. At one point the demonstrators blocked a major highway. The police lined up in riot gear but did not approach the protesters, and the protesters did not cause any damage. After about 45 minutes or so, the protesters began to all move off the highway and allow traffic to resume. I work with a woman who lives in Ferguson and she told me that it was a very scary night. Guns being fired, people rushing around, sirens, and all the noises you'd expect. She said she didn't sleep at all during the night. She seemed quite shook up when I saw her at work. There were a number of peaceful protests during the day today in various locations. Again highways were shut down, and again the protesters cleared out on their own after a short while. Thus far tonight it seems to be much more calm around here. As for me, I drove to work this morning, about 10 minutes from Ferguson, with no real concerns about my safety. There didn't seem to be animosity at all between whites and blacks where I work, although I suspect I know how people felt about the Grand Jury decision just based on race. There are a lot of white people protesting with the blacks. While I wouldn't want to be around Ferguson at night, that is primarily due to the fact that I might get tear gassed or hit by rubber bullets. This seems to be primarily an issue between blacks and law enforcement, not between blacks and whites.

Yes, I seem to remember a similar consultation from a while ago. Well, Mrs Smith, I can offer you two alternatives. One is well established and known to be successful. Adoption. The child you would have would have none of your DNA. You can however select a child that has characteristics that resemble your husband and you - for example hair and eye color. In addition, you will be helping a child in need and give them a much better chance for a happy, healthy life. Alternatively, we can offer you an experimental therapy. You will find that "certain birth defects were significantly more common in infants conceived through IVF, notably septal heart defects, cleft lip with or without cleft palate, esophageal atresia, and anorectal atresia". In addition "Limited long-term follow-up data suggest that IVF may be associated with an increased incidence of hypertension, impaired fasting glucose, increase in total body fat composition, advancement of bone age, subclinical thyroid disorder, early adulthood clinical depression and binge drinking in the offspring". Perhaps it's just me, but I don't think think that a fear of potential problems early on should halt medical advancements.

I would think human cloning will be used as another means for infertile couples to have children. A couple may eventually have a choice between having a child whose genes come from the wife and a stranger, or from the wife only. I imagine there will be couples who will be interested in the latter.

A lot of people I know who do not reside in St. Louis have told me how bad things look here after the shooting of Michael Brown. They get the impression that there is widespread rioting and destruction. Here is some data from the local newspaper (St. Louis Post-Dispatch) as of today. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ferguson-by-the-numbers-breakdown-since-protests-began/article_5ec448a4-3f08-5861-813c-d03bed1c9784.html

Yes, I imagine economics is a huge factor in segregation, at least at the higher end of the scale. The 'whitest' neighborhoods I know of are also the most wealthy, but I think racism is lower in these areas. Many areas of low income seem to be racially mixed around here, at least in the metropolitan area. If you move out into the more rural areas I notice many more racist whites. I know areas where I would feel reasonably safe if I was visiting, but would not consider moving into the area (I am white). Simiarly there are areas that I'm sure blacks would visit but wouldn't consider moving into. Some of it is more than likely socially based too as people tend to gather with those they find similar to themselves.

Redlining in St. Louis was common until around 1970 or so, and that had a lot to do with where blacks and whites ended up in the region. I have bought and sold several houses here over the past 30 years and any query about 'safety of neighborhoods', etc. is met with silence or a suggestion that if you'd like further information about schools, crime, etc. then you should do some research. If a real estate agent makes questionable statements about neighborhoods or potential buyers they are at high risk of losing their jobs. Regulators posing as buyers regularly go out testing the real estate agent's adherence to the law regarding this topic. There still seems to be a disparity in access to banking services between whites and blacks, although I believe this is a national problem, not just a St. Louis problem. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/08/14/3471237/ferguson-housing-segregation/

No, I don't understand how a 'whites only' town that is 2/3 black supports your position that blacks have to live where whites tell them to live. Are you suggesting that blacks feel they have to live there because whites told them not to not long ago? Still don't get your point. I'm not denying that there used to be involuntary segregation. How does this show involuntary segregation is current? So what was the duration of your stay in the region, and what was your sample size that allowed you to draw your conclusions about the region? How did you randomly select white people? Can you give some examples of the flagrant, obvious, in your face racism?