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You mean, as opposed to your topic sentence? It is interesting that you don't think that whether or not torture is effective in gathering information has anything to do with whether or not torture is ever justified. It seems pretty obvious to me that if torture does not extract useful information then it will be tough for anyone to justify its use. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that nearly anyone who does justify its use does so because they believe it will extract useful information. And a quick read of the previous posts shows that roughly half of the posts, including the OP, discuss the relative effectiveness of torture in gathering information. Can you please expand on why you don't think the effectiveness of torture is related to justification of its use?

Perhaps the 'center' means the center of gravity of a grouping? I imagine that the center of our solar system would be considered the sun. And I think we have a good idea where the center of our galaxy is. That makes me think we can point to the location of the center of our local group and the supercluster we are part of. Is it wrong to think that we could continue the process (assuming we had enough data to do so) of picking the center of ever larger groupings until we have identified the center of the universe? At what point does this process break down? Is my confusion over understanding why the 'center' of the universe is not meaningful likely because I don't understand things like isotropic intrinsic manifolds?

I can think of two factors that could influence the effectiveness of torture in extracting information. First is, for want of a better word, a person's character. Someone who feels they must never betray anyone or ever go against their word would probably feel a stronger need not to give up any useful intelligence. A highly motivated leader of a group like al qaeda might fit this bill. On the other hand, a weak person who has spent a lifetime taking advantage of his friends and neighbors is probably less keen to accept suffering for the benefit of others. Second is the level of loyalty you have toward those you have information about. If someone grows up in the military, believes in what they are doing, and grows close to those he workes with, he is probably going to resist torture more than, say, a conscript who is considering whether or not to suffer for an organization he did not want to be a part of in the first place. Since weak, conscripted soldiers are probably less likely to be in posession of critical secrets than motivated loyalists, it seems possible that while torture would likely extract information, that information would tend to be rather low in quality. While I can come up with scenarios that I believe justify torture, I tend to believe that torture is not an intelligent method to gather information.

I think the problem is that torture will probably be successful on some level, and that will result in its continued use. Some people being tortured will probably never tell anything, some will tell as little as they can manage, and some will tell all. Western countries regularly train their soldiers on how to resist torture because they know torture can be successful. People under duress will make decisions on whether to accept the current pain or to move on. I suspect that people being tortured have a priority for secrets. Taking me as an example, under threat of torture I would give up the location of my car keys so it can be taken by the torturer. I might have to be knocked around a bit before I told them where I kept my stash of cash in the house. If they were after my son to kill him I imagine my resistance would be much greater, although never having been through torture I cannot say with any degree of confidence that I could hold out indefinitely. I would think a soldier would possibly go through the same thought process. If being tortured enough, they may give up the location of a two man partol, thinking that maybe the partol has moved on or can defend themselves. But they may be able to hold out much better if the secret they are keeping is the location of the headquarters. On 9/11 people willingly jumped from the World Trade Center to certain death because they decided that the situation they were in was a worse fate. You are a stronger person than I am. I believe that the knowledge of additional and prolonged torture would cause me to give information I would not give if not being tortured.

As an example, what if the prisoner told you the location of an arms cache you suspected existed but did not know the location of? You then go there and check it out to see if he told you the truth. The time was not wasted if it resulted in uncovering the cache. Would you be more likely to tell the truth under torture if the torturer told you to expect more of the same if you are lying?

What about the banning of full veils in public in France? Perhaps what governments should do is ensure their laws do not impose restrictions on religious dresscode.

Try International Laboratory Services or Wickham Laboratories.

Perhaps you could contact someone like ScreenSafeUK and have them do a more detailed analysis of your blood. I don't know if they test food but I would imagine they could help you locate someone who does.

Are you talking about doing something like this? Found these on bose.com.

http://rt.com/news/torture-eu-amnesty-international/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1508662/Europe-involved-with-100-torture-flight-prisoners.html http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Rights-Report-Condemns-European-Attitude-to-Torture-97393294.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/703670.stm

Which one is ok and which one is not? Both are legal and both are illegal depending on the circumstances.

I'm not sure that the statement of one person proves your implication (below) that Americans are stupid.

Goods and Services... http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/199.asp

Topics that I treat with extreme caution: Your money. How you raise your kids. My wife's mother. Holy grail of feminine gratification. Feminine fantasies. Generalizations about what women want. Suggestions that women feel attractiveness is their number one goal. Suggestions that women desire to be put on a pedestal. I think I may just watch this from the sidelines.

To use an extreme example... If 90% of the mass of the earth were at the north pole, are you saying that no matter where you stood on the surface of the earth, you would feel gravity equally?

I think that many times people use the negative vote as a polite way to say, "I am trying to see things from your perspective but I can't get my head that far up my ass!".

You are mistaken. Read what Spyman posted.

You are mistaken. Read what Spyman posted.

It shouldn't be that alien of a concept. Most of us run our romantic relationships that way. "You can go to the party without me, we both know that temptation will be there, and what I hope you will do is ignore that temptation and remain faithful to me. Or there will be hell to pay!" Knowing someone chooses to be faithful means a lot.

Not as far as I know. The only thing I can think of is when Bush got just a wee bit carried away in 2003 and declared that hostilities in Irag were over. I don't recall any similar declaration regarding the war in Afghanistan, or the 'War on Terror'. Do you have any reason to believe this is true other than it is how you would react? I don't know the mindset of moderate backers of terrorism, but I wouldn't be surprised if the long term humiliation of putting bin Laden on trial according to Western secular laws, and then finally executing or imprisoning him for life, might instead turn moderate supporters into hard core supporters. I'd be happy to hear of any data that points one way or the other. I will go along with the idea that we can and should act better than we do. I'm just not prepared to concede the point that the killing of bin Laden is acting bad. They shot at us, we shot at them. I don't feel the distinction of relative rank within the beligerents is an obvious cutoff. At one time combatants would not purposely target any officers because it was believed they were needed to maintain control of their troops. And you don't mind us killing the lower ranking people, but not the top ranking. Too fuzzy for me. I don't know if I can make a compelling argument that you should be able to target bin Laden, but I also don't believe a compelling argument can be made for not targeting bin Laden. And so I don't second guess this decision made by Obama and the military. Either way a sizable portion of the populace will think you were wrong. If you attack a foe you have to expect the foe will fight back. I seriously doubt that bin Laden's last thoughts were that the Americans were not being fair to him by not taking him into custody.

The pain in the tooth also prompts you to take the appropriate action. The pains are not specific to the actions we should take, and they cannot 'know' if there is something that can be done or not. The burning finger pain did not say 'move your hand', it just said something was wrong and you then made the decision to move your hand. Likewise, the pain in your tooth is just saying something is wrong, and you have to decide what to do; bash out the tooth, go to the dentist, or spit out the red hot coal that was stuck to your freshly grilled mastodon and is now burning your tooth.

Aspirin, a light beer (if no risk of return), and oxygen from my mother's oxygen tank.

Different types of oil sell for different prices, but the base price of comparable oil is pretty much the same for all countries on the open market. Of course if you own the oil you can easily sell it for less to certain customers, as many state run oil industries do within their own country to keep the price of oil products down for their citizens. The price of oil is determined by its value to others, supply, demand, fear, OPEC, stockpiles, the economy, refining capabilities, war, technology, etc.

I was in a bit of a twist that day. My apologies for my sarcasm. I don't recall that being the case. What specific declaration are you speaking of? I just read an interesting commentary on the celebrations. It pointed out that the majority of those celebrating were young and in grade school or high school at the time of 9/11. To that group of people bin Laden was the face of the enemy, similar to the way Hitler was during WWII. To them the elimination of public enemy #1 was worthy of celebration just as people would have done in '43 if Hitler had been taken out. Would you have found it acceptable to drop a bomb on the compound from 40,000 feet? Did you feel we had to try to take him alive? Is it acceptable to kill other known terrorists in Pakistan with drone attacks or do we have to try to capture them also?

African violets are small, cheap, easy to grow, and flower a lot. They like higher humidity so you can add in the new task of 'misting' the plant, or you can set the flower pot on a pan full of pebbles and keep water in the pebbles to create a micro environment of humidity. If you do vegetables you get to eat it at the end, but some are interesting when they flower. If you let brocolli grow beyond when you normally harvest it you'll see the entire head bloom.